EO or RC. How can a Protestant decide?

[dzheremi]

So for someone like myself, how can I be sure which Church to join?

I can’t and won’t pretend to be able to guide you in such big questions, but I can say that your question should be separated from the RC presuppositions that you’ve connected it to. The Orthodox Church doesn’t maintain such a ranking in terms of “degrees of truth” or what have you. The Orthodox faith and Church is all truth, so these other bodies are not even a question. Even though I can say certain things as an Orthodox Christian about our relationship to others (e.g., I firmly believe that the so-called “Oriental Orthodox” whom I am in communion with and the so-called “Eastern Orthodox” whom I am not in communion with are probably the two Christian families that are not currently in communion which are most likely to heal their schism from one another and resume open communion and concelebration at some point in the future, even as I also recognize that we have a long way to go), I cannot say that such-and-such a people are “second best” to us or what have you. It is common Orthodox practice not to theologize outside of the Church. We can certainly say who’s in it by virtue of who we are in communion with (in the Coptic Orthodox case, that would be the Orthodox faithful among the Syriacs, Ethiopians and Eritreans, Armenians, Indians, and the Britons and French within the Coptic Orthodox patriarchate), but we can’t say much about those who are outside of it except that we believe what we believe, and insofar as they have not formally joined our communion, we do not recognize what they believe as being what we believe.

Perhaps it’s the persecuted Copts that I shall join, or perhaps the EO, perhaps the RC? I can pray and trust the Holy Spirit and I may be led to the RC while another is led to the EO. So what’s the difference?

The difference is that Orthodoxy and heterodoxy are not the same. It has much less to do with who can argue that they are this or that, and more to do with who has lived the faith of the early church for two millennia and counting. The faith is not an argument. It is a life. It is the endless worship and supplication of the God of all. Not to get too dematerialized on you, but it is what is in the heart and soul, not what is in the polemics and tracts.

One of them is wrong, so how is this argument any different?

Not only is one of them wrong, all of them are wrong but one. For the individual, it is a matter of much prayer and seeking (and this is not a hypothetical argument or thought experiment; I’ve been there myself). I know I post this an awful lot, or at least I feel like I do, but our beloved Pope of blessed memory, HH Pope Shenouda III, once gave a sermon on returning to God in prayer that says a lot about what where the Coptic Orthodox come down on such questions. Please watch this and pay close attention to what His Holiness says about how to be successful in prayer, and what it means to take from God and be blessed by Him: “Come back to God” sermon by HH Pope Shenouda III in Arabic with English subtitles

Pour yourself out, prostrate yourself before the Lord, and trust that He will show you His will for your life, far away from arguments of who is right and who is wrong. All of that can come later. If you are seriously seeking, it is more than enough to dedicate yourself to prayer and supplication. God be with you.

 

[SteveVH]

This became one of the many discussions which sort of derailed a thread and I’m really interested in understanding this.

I’m an Evangelical Christian, I belong to no Apostolic Faith, whether it be Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican or whoever else claims to be #1 among the oldest Christian groups.

I often see the argument posed here that I have no true authority to interpret Scripture, nor does my Pastor. The argument is as follows; “If your Pastor has one interpretation and another Pastor has a different interpretation how can the Holy Spirit guide you to your Pastor’s interpretation and lead another to believe the other interpretation is truth?” I often reply that among Evangelicals our interpretations are extremely close but not always the exact same.

Some differences among Evangelicals are, eternal security, contraception, old earth/new earth and there could be more but most of them are small. But the question remains, “who’s Holy Spirit is right?” I trust God to guide me, I pray, keep an open mind and try to do His will, as does someone who is in another Church with another interpretation.

Now, this seems like a tough argument to address until we look at the tradition of the Catholic Church. There is the RC with its many, many members. The EO in second place, the Copts who believe that Mark personally founded their Church, and many Orthodox branches that are similar to the RC but still not the one true Church.

So for someone like myself, how can I be sure which Church to join? Perhaps it’s the persecuted Copts that I shall join, or perhaps the EO, perhaps the RC? I can pray and trust the Holy Spirit and I may be led to the RC while another is led to the EO. So what’s the difference? One of them is wrong, so how is this argument any different?

Concerning the bolded part of your statement it is important to point out that the Eastern Catholic Churches (including the Copts), while self governing, are nevertheless in union with the Pope and are not vying for a position as “the one true Church”. They are the one, true Church, along with the Latin Church. There are many beautiful rites within the Catholic Church, the Latin rite being only one. There is only one Catholic Church so you really have only two choices.

The other choice is one of the particular Churches of the Eastern Orthodox. Their liturgies are amazingly beautiful and reverent; something which I find highly attractive. The ethnicity thing is what I find a little odd for a universal Church, however, as far as Apostolic succession, valid dogmas and valid sacraments they have all of it.

Personally I believe that Christ intended for his Church, through the Holy Spirit, to be led through the centuries by one authority in communion with all of its bishops. Oneness is a huge theme in the Church; one Lord, one Church, one faith, one Baptism… It must be unified under one human head, otherwise there is no unity. There is much wisdom in a supreme universal leader of Christ’s Church. It just makes sense to me and the proposition is supported both in Scripture and Tradition. Peter received authority that the others did not.

Anyway, great thread!

 

[Rock7]

I have this very problem-I am genuinely tired of evangelicalism and it’s antics but I don’t know which to choose! I have even researched the Assyrian Church of the East!

 

[St_Francis]

This book, Jesus, Peter, and the Keys, helped me when I was exactly where you are. It discusses the various verses and issues with information and wuotes about what current Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics say, as well as Early Church Fathers.

You should also be able to get it through interlibrary-loan if your library doesn’t have it.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

This became one of the many discussions which sort of derailed a thread and I’m really interested in understanding this.

I’m an Evangelical Christian, I belong to no Apostolic Faith, whether it be Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican or whoever else claims to be #1 among the oldest Christian groups.

I often see the argument posed here that I have no true authority to interpret Scripture, nor does my Pastor. The argument is as follows; “If your Pastor has one interpretation and another Pastor has a different interpretation how can the Holy Spirit guide you to your Pastor’s interpretation and lead another to believe the other interpretation is truth?” I often reply that among Evangelicals our interpretations are extremely close but not always the exact same.

Some differences among Evangelicals are, eternal security, contraception, old earth/new earth and there could be more but most of them are small. But the question remains, “who’s Holy Spirit is right?” I trust God to guide me, I pray, keep an open mind and try to do His will, as does someone who is in another Church with another interpretation.

Now, this seems like a tough argument to address until we look at the tradition of the Catholic Church. There is the RC with its many, many members. The EO in second place, the Copts who believe that Mark personally founded their Church, and many Orthodox branches that are similar to the RC but still not the one true Church.

So for someone like myself, how can I be sure which Church to join? Perhaps it’s the persecuted Copts that I shall join, or perhaps the EO, perhaps the RC? I can pray and trust the Holy Spirit and I may be led to the RC while another is led to the EO. So what’s the difference? One of them is wrong, so how is this argument any different?

For Lutherans, this question is impossible since we recognize the two pillars of holy Church in the East and in the West, of which we are a part.

 

[dzheremi]

It bears repeating to all involved in this thread that asking “How do I decide which Church to join when they all make what seem like equally supportable claims to the truth?” is not the same as asking “Which Church also has Rome-affiliated portions that I could be member of?” They are not even close to asking the same thing. With due to respect to all who point to the Eastern or Oriental Catholic churches as some sort of answer to this question, to do so shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy (particularly in the area of ecclesiology), which is likely to only confuse dronald in his search for a way make sense of where he should be while simultaneously pulling the thread in unwelcome polemical directions that I’m sure are not in the best interest of anyone here.

 

[TK421]

This became one of the many discussions which sort of derailed a thread and I’m really interested in understanding this.

I’m an Evangelical Christian, I belong to no Apostolic Faith, whether it be Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican or whoever else claims to be #1 among the oldest Christian groups.

I often see the argument posed here that I have no true authority to interpret Scripture, nor does my Pastor. The argument is as follows; “If your Pastor has one interpretation and another Pastor has a different interpretation how can the Holy Spirit guide you to your Pastor’s interpretation and lead another to believe the other interpretation is truth?” I often reply that among Evangelicals our interpretations are extremely close but not always the exact same.

Some differences among Evangelicals are, eternal security, contraception, old earth/new earth and there could be more but most of them are small. But the question remains, “who’s Holy Spirit is right?” I trust God to guide me, I pray, keep an open mind and try to do His will, as does someone who is in another Church with another interpretation.

Now, this seems like a tough argument to address until we look at the tradition of the Catholic Church. There is the RC with its many, many members. The EO in second place, the Copts who believe that Mark personally founded their Church, and many Orthodox branches that are similar to the RC but still not the one true Church.

So for someone like myself, how can I be sure which Church to join? Perhaps it’s the persecuted Copts that I shall join, or perhaps the EO, perhaps the RC? I can pray and trust the Holy Spirit and I may be led to the RC while another is led to the EO. So what’s the difference? One of them is wrong, so how is this argument any different?

God imbued mankind with rational souls. You decide or not decide to join the Catholic Church or an Orthodox Church for the same reason you would join any Christian group, or any religion, or any ideology. You just hunt for the truth, and if you love the truth, you will cast aside your upbringing, your conditioning, your nation, your ethnicity, your friends, and your family in the pursuit of it. All of those things are refuse in comparison to your relationship with God.

I joined the Catholic Church instead of any of the other orthodox churches because I believe the Catholic Church’s theology is the most practical, developed, consistent, and persuasive and because its corporal works, its boldness, and its commitment meet up to the standards of the gospels. I did not join an orthodox church because they are drowning in ethnocentrism, their evangelization and mission work in the world is in the pits, their theology is less developed, and their arguments less sound to me. Orthodox churches are intensely more rational than protestants in that they accept the idea of apostolic succession (protestants believe the Bible is infallible, and the Bible was originally declared infallible because a Catholic ecumenical council said so… ), but they are less so rational in that they will not submit to the overpowering voice among the apostolic churches in spite of Jesus’ plea for unity. In short, when I look at them, I do not see the fullness of Christ.

By the way, just a note: everybody has the authority to interpret scripture; you just don’t have the authority to do it infallibly. You can still use the rational soul that God gave you to read it and determine the weight of the Mormon claim that there are three gods, or another group’s claim that there will be specifically 144,000 people going to Heaven, or another group’s claim that God supposedly doesn’t really condemn homosexual sex - because otherwise you might not fit in at the local cocktail party. In this, Catholic exegesis has shown to me to be the most rigorous, sound, and airtight. None of the Catholic doctors of the church or the saints in history are recognized to have the gift of infallibility, but that doesn’t mean their spirituality or their apologetics are of no value.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

dronald,

This is a very important and difficult question. And one that may not be answered as expediently as you’d like. I took me several years and lots of study and more importantly prayer.

In the end, you must follow your conscience in all honesty. Whether it is what you wish to do vs. It is what the Spirit compels you to do. And how do you discern this?

Well, for me it came down to a single proposal:

Do I want Christ to conform my views?

or

Do I want to conform myself to Christ?

At least for me, this was extremely difficult to do. Because I did not want to sacrifice my intellect or the possibility that I am wrong in my interpretations.

Another question was:

How teachable am I? Am I too stern or intransigent in my ideals?

This doesn’t mean to sacrifice certain convictions (Like the creeds for example, I deeply hold to what they express and they are non-negotiable for me - because they are non-negotiable for the Church as a Whole – They carry the most basic of Apostolic teaching).

Also, you need to go to more than one Parish. The more the merrier. Try to engage the Pastor. If possible, take them out to lunch and have a good theological talk. And a good practical talk. How does the Parish exercise these theological ideas and principles.

Read, read a lot. These are things that are really not new. They may have different names or different variations but in essence, they are things that the Church has talked and debated about since the beginning.

Pray, pray a lot. This may sound cheese but: What better way to communicate with our Lord?

I pray our Lord guides you in your journey.

 

[JonNC]

I have this very problem-I am genuinely tired of evangelicalism and it’s antics but I don’t know which to choose! I have even researched the Assyrian Church of the East!

Most of these communions offer some form of adult education class.

Jon

 

[po18guy]

I would be interested in you sharing the other numerous verses.

It will take a lot of time to look each individually up, so this is off the top of my head. Fist, Peter is named 195 times in the New Testament. The closest is the “beloved disciple” John at only 29 times. All the rest, even less. Peter is always named first, Judas last. Christ preached only from Peter’s boat; Christ gave Peter the power of binding and loosing; Jesus gave Peter alone the keys to the Kingdom of Heave; Peter was the only to walk on water; to use a coin from the fishes mouth to pay the temple tax for himself and Christ; the one whom Christ prayed for when Satan demanded to sift them like wheat; the first one to enter the empty tomb, (John arrived first but entered only after waiting for Peter); the first to answer Jesus’ question on numerous occasions; the only one whose name Jesus changed; the one whose voice silenced the assembly in Acts 15; the only one to deny, then reaffirm our Lord three times; the only one whom Paul went up to Jerusalem to see; the only one who was to “strengthen your brothers”; the only one whose shadow healed; the only one whose death Christ predicted and described. As He washed their feet, Jesus said “Let him who is greatest among you become as your servant” - which indicates htat one of them, indeed, was he greatest. Combine this with Him telling Peter “Strengthen your brothers.” At hte lake of Tiberias, Jesus called only Peter to follow Him. The list goes on and on. Not a single mention of Peter as the rock in all of this. But you will never see it unless you are looking for it and connect the dots. Combine that with the structure and function of the early Church as handed on to us and it has been eminently clear for 2,000 years. The fact that some do not agree with Peter’s primacy does not affect it one bit. By the same principle, atheists do not believe in God - does that render God void?

 

[prodromos]

I would commit myself to spending a reasonable amount of time attending services in each, trying to understand as much as you can if its not in English. I would also look to see what fruit is being produced. Does the church continue to produce saints?

 

[dronald]

I’ve always believed that prayer, a sincere heart, and looking to Christ is the best advice. What I wonder though, is if Christ leads me back to my Evangelical Church (which I believe He has) does that mean Christ didn’t really lead me there?

If Christ leads me to Eastern Orthodoxy does a Roman Catholic believe that Christ didn’t really lead me there? If Christ leads me to the RCC would the Orthodox say that Christ didn’t really lead me there?

 

[po18guy]

The Holy Spirit leads, always and everywhere, to humble submission and unity. If you are not being lead to those virtues, it is not the Holy Spirit, but some other.

 

[dronald]

The Holy Spirit leads, always and everywhere, to humble submission and unity. If you are not being lead to those virtues, it is not the Holy Spirit, but some other.

So your answer is, only the RCC. Correct?

 

[po18guy]

So your answer is, only the RCC. Correct?

The Catholic Church is the most difficult to join and the easiest to leave. Its truths are a “hard saying” reflective of the God Who has revealed those truths. Each and every Christian denomination has truth in it - no other result can come from claiming the true Christ. Yet, if you love Christ, you want the deepest, most intimate relationship possible. If you love Christ, you want all of God’s revealed truth and not just that portion which you can easily accept. Finding a Church with which you agree means that it is man-made and not according to God’s will. Why else would our Lord have told us that me must do two things before we follow Him: 1. deny our very selves and 2. take up our crosses. If we do not follow His explicit advice, we risk following a worldly spirit and not the Holy Spirit.

Following Christ is not all joy, singing and guitar music. It is a difficult, arduous journey which involves rejection, pain and suffering - how else can we hope to follow Him to heaven if we do not pass through Calvary? Which parts of Christ’s Body did not suffer on the cross? All of him, mind, body and spirit suffered. Being parts of His Body, if we do not share in His suffering and death, we have no hope of rising with Him. Yet, through the pain and suffering, there is an interior peace that does indeed surpass all human understanding.

I had to deny the heck out of myself to embrace the Catholic faith. I had difficulty for years. Then, it all clicked at a Catholic bible study. It clicked again when I was baptized in the Holy Spirit. Before I could ever leave the Catholic Church for another, I would have to renounce Christ. It is that certain. It has been confirmed in my mind and in my spirit while in the Lord’s true presence.

 

[Kliska]

I’ve always believed that prayer, a sincere heart, and looking to Christ is the best advice. What I wonder though, is if Christ leads me back to my Evangelical Church (which I believe He has) does that mean Christ didn’t really lead me there?

If Christ leads me to Eastern Orthodoxy does a Roman Catholic believe that Christ didn’t really lead me there? If Christ leads me to the RCC would the Orthodox say that Christ didn’t really lead me there?

Of course being a fellow protestant, I’d humbly point out that Jesus said people would know His disciples for the love they have for each other. So, yes, prayer, a seeking heart, and always always always looking to Jesus IS the best advice. Further we aren’t told the unity of organization is what shows His true disciples but rather that love thing. As a believe in the unity of the invisible church, I believe you can have unity from plurality, as we have the Trinity. “Echad:” One from plurality. The thread between all believers is love for one another, the love of brothers, sisters, mothers. Of course proper belief is important when speaking of salvation! That is why we must read, study, prayer and seek the guidance of the Spirit while always concentrating on Christ. We MUST have a correct understanding of Jesus, faith and grace.

I’ve had serious conversations with Roman Catholics who tell me their understanding of salvation is more inline with protestant evangelical belief, but they also strongly believe they belong in the RCC. They believe the Spirit drew them there, and they ask me what they should do. We talk it out and as always I say it doesn’t matter what I think, but that they truly seek God’s will and then do it.

 

[po18guy]

Rhetorical questions: Where does scripture, implicitly or explicitly, state that the Church is to be invisible? Scripture does not. We will know it by love? Atheists love one another as much as we do. Satan worshippers love one another. Love that lacks the fulness of truth risks being mislead. As to the Church organization, it is extremely well revealed in scripture - but you must connect the dots.

And, what ever happened to Christ’s fervent prayer to the father that we all be of one accord? Is that served by division? By denominational loyalty? By prejudice or bigotry?

 

[ScottEH]

I’ve always believed that prayer, a sincere heart, and looking to Christ is the best advice. What I wonder though, is if Christ leads me back to my Evangelical Church (which I believe He has) does that mean Christ didn’t really lead me there?

If Christ leads me to Eastern Orthodoxy does a Roman Catholic believe that Christ didn’t really lead me there? If Christ leads me to the RCC would the Orthodox say that Christ didn’t really lead me there?

I can’t speak for anyone but myself, but when I look at it, I know that both the EO and the CC (and the OO and some smaller churches for that matter) have a valid priesthood and sacraments. Despite what some Orthodox say, I believe we share the same faith (as evidenced by the Eastern Catholic churches) and both maintain the orthodox catholic faith. If God were to lead you to the EO, I would be very happy for you.

 

[wmscott]

I would be interested in you sharing the other numerous verses.

Since you asked…

PAPACY & APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION PRIMACY OF PETER

Mt 16:18 - upon this rock (Peter) I will build my church
Mt 16;19 - give you keys of the kingdom; power to bind & loose
Lk 22:32 - Peter’s faith will strengthen his brethren
Jn 21:17 - given Christ’s flock as chief shepherd
Mk 16:7 - angel sent to announce Resurrection to Peter
Lk 24:34 - risen Jesus first appeared to Peter
Acts 1:13-26 - headed meeting which elected Matthias
Acts 2:14 - led Apostles in preaching on Pentecost
Acts 2:41 - received first converts
Acts 3:6-7 - performed first miracle after Pentecost
Acts 5:1-11 - inflicted first punishment: Ananias & Saphira
Acts 8:21 - excommunicated first heretic, Simon Magnus
Acts 10:44-46 - received revelation to admit Gentiles into Church
Acts 15:7 - led first council in Jerusalem
Acts 15:19 - pronounces first dogmatic decision
Gal 1:18 - after conversion, Paul visits chief Apostle

Peter’s name always heads list of Apostles: Mt 10;14; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13 “Peter and his companions” Lk 9:32; Mk 16:7 Spoke for Apostles - Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 8:45; 12:41; Jn 6:69 Peter’s name occurs 195 times, more than all the rest put together

 

[Kliska]

We will know it by love?

Jesus Himself says that we will know His disciples because of the love they show one another. Further, the love between the brothers and sisters in Christ stands as an apologetic to the world that Jesus lives.

Atheists love one another as much as we do. Satan worshippers love one another.

Wow… not from where I’m sitting.

As to the Church organization, it is extremely well revealed in scripture - but you must connect the dots.

We believe in church organization, just not what the RCC teaches.

And, what ever happened to Christ’s fervent prayer to the father that we all be of one accord?

If you mean the descriptions in Acts where it says they are of one accord, that means of one passion and one desire. We too believe that we are united in one accord; preaching the word of God, the good news of the gospel. Who Jesus is, what He did, and the role of grace and faith. If you mean Christ’s priestly prayer, He prayed that they be one as He and the Father are one. God is triune; One God, Three Persons. Echad is One from plurality.

Not at all, but it isn’t any denomination that I’ve been a part of that says it is the only true church, and it’s leader is the only true head of that church. Instead the teaching is about faith and grace and Jesus Christ, and that you become a part of the church by becoming a part of Him, truly a member of the body of Christ.