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ron77nyc
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Yes we were certainly ignorant of Christ because the bible and faith were never mentioned. We didn’t have a St. Jerome in our parish.We went to purgatory for a venial sin and hell for a mortal sin if you died before getting to confession. That was the plan of salvation that was laid out for us and I think lots of Catholics still live by it.
Do you think I may have missed something in 12 years of Catholic school? Maybe I was out sick the day they were teaching salvation by faith.
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Wild_Boar
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If I understand correctly, either the catholic catechism or counsels of Trent which pronounces an anathema on those who say that men are not saved by works. Am I correct?
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ron77nyc
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Yes, that’s right. There is also an anathema for those who preach a gospel other than the one taught by the apostles.
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Bastoune
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YES, I am CERTAIN you were either asleep or too lazy to pay attention because THE CATHOLIC CHURCH PREACHES THIS EVERY SUNDAY (and every day) AT MASS:
socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-do-catholics-hear-gospel-gary.html
If you were truly a member of the Catholic Church, you are either lying or were never paying attention. You can argue until you’re blue in the face but read the link.
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ron77nyc
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I agree. They do now. They did not always do it.
socrates58.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-do-catholics-hear-gospel-gary.html
The link you gave is all true. The bible was read at mass but never explained, Jesus was always in the Eucharist but salvation by faith was never explained. I had faith because I accepted everything I learned about Jesus from the nuns and priests but I didn’t know my faith made me justified before God. After 2000 years they are finally getting around to bible study where all that stuff is explained. Is that difficult to comprehend? I thank God for those Protestants who ministered to me and taught me His word. we are all one Body of Christ. The monsignor at my parish tells us to take all the we can from the Protestants.
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Bastoune
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I think you are missing the point.
The lack of discussion about “conversion” and such that the Protestants are stunted in (they are spiritual infants still suckling milk – ok, be “born again” but after “birth” one GROWS UP/MATURES…) is because a Catholic is already baptised, attending Church. So the clergy perhaps “assumes” you already understand that the works part comes after saving grace. They explain it but maybe not to the satisfaction of some lay people.
I can’t help you with that.
But once you are IN THE DOORS of the Church the focus of the sermons is living the Godly life – it is already assumed you have the faith and therefore the grace from God to carry on in Christ.
I’m not trying to be confrontational but the Church NEVER has taught we are saved by works, even if with her own children, she stresses works (because they come after the grace) and just because you find too much stress on it, that doesn’t mean they have taught what you stated they did.
It reminds me of an aggressive fundamentalist sect member who attacked me by saying (quoting Eph. 2:8-9) that the Catholic Church preaches salvation by works, not grace. When I proved her wrong, all she could say was, “Well, I don’t know how they deny grace, but THEY DO!!!”
After that she disappeared from my life. I still pray for her. Her mom converted her to that nutcase group, her father remained Catholic (nominal or not, he never missed Sunday Mass…)
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ron77nyc
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How do you know what I was taught? I haven’t even told you everything. No one is capable of knowing what every church teaches in every part of the world at any given time in history. Obviously from the links you have posted for me to read there are many people who have had the same experience I have had. They came to a fuller understanding of salvation outside the Catholic Church. On this thread alone there are testimonies of people who have understood the gospel by way of good Catholic teachers and there are some who were not taught properly. There are many factors involved: time, location and teachers. It’s not about Protestant vs Catholic. It’s about biblical truth vs men’s fables. I think all religions have the same problem. They all have divisions, good and bad teachers, fundamentalists, traditionalists, etc. Pope Benedict agrees with Luther on salvation by faith alone. In the Middle Ages he would have been tortured for saying that.
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NotWorthy
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I know Ron already answered this, but I’m not sure if its correct.
Where do Catholics teach that we are saved by works, and cursed are any who say that we aren’t saved by our works?
Although our works are important to our salvation (as James indicates in his Epistle), they don’t save us. Only the Grace of God saves us.
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ron77nyc
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“If anyone should say that justifying faith is nothing more than confidence in the divine mercy because it remits sin for the sake of Jesus Christ…let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, canon 12)
“If anyone should say that justice when received is not preserved and augmented before God by good works, but that good works are only fruits or signs of justice obtained: let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, canon 24)
“If anyone should say that the good works of a just man are so entirely the gift of God that they are not also meritorious for this just man…let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, can. 31)
“If anyone says that the just man, through the good works which he accomplishes by the grace of God and through the merits of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit and increase of grace, and also eternal life and the securing of eternal life itself (provided that he dies in the state of grace), and that he does not receive even an increase of glory: let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, can. 32).
“It is not possible, without a special revelation, to know those whom God has chosen for Himself.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, chap. 12). If anyone should say that he is certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, that he will enjoy the great gift of final perseverance, without learning it by a special revelation: let him be anathema” (Council of Trent, Session VI, canon 16).
The Council of Trent says we can secure eternal life with good works but we can’t know if we have eternal life except by a special revelation even if we die in a state of grace. Dying in a state of grace was always taught as getting hit by a truck right after confession. You can live your whole life trying to do the right thing and never be sure if you did enough. Is that the gospel message?
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NotWorthy
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Ron, I agree with these statements, but none of them say what (I feel) Wildboar asked:
All of the above references show how our works AID in our Salvation, but none of these claim that our good works themselves save us.
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NHInsider
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Not one of these quotes says you can earn salvation. Every single one says that good works are an obligation of the saved and that they will be rewarded. This is absolutely consistent with Paul’s “pressing on to the prize.”
This is a separate issue - Once Saved Always Saved teaches that once a person has received grace they give up their free will and cannot later reject God. That’s what’s being anathemized here.
Trent says we can “secure” the eternal life we have been given by GRACE, not that we can earn it by works. And as to “wondering if you did enough” - that sounds like St. Paul, too (1 Cor. 9:28). But it isn’t really a matter of “worrying about losing salvation” as if you could accidentally misplace it. You have to choose to reject God.
Hoping I did that quoting thing right this time . . .
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NHInsider
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I think this is unfair as well as uncharitable. The reality is that none of us is doing as good a job as we could do of sharing the faith.
And it is true that as a Church, at least in the western world in the last 50 years, we have failed to communicate the truths of the faith clearly. The number of poorly-catechised Catholic adults is appalling. The question is (are?), what can be done about it, and what can I do about it.
I think it is also very important to recognize that the trap of thinking we can or should earn our way into heaven is very deeply ingrained in our nature. It is difficult to understand or believe that we can’t. Even when we do “know” intellectually that our salvation is an unearned and unearnable gift of grace, we may “feel” otherwise. The very fact that St. Paul had to write the Epistle to the Galatians shows that this danger has always been there. Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism are very ancient heresies - attractive because they appeal to our human understanding of relationships. So I do think it’s important to be very clear about this in our on-going catechisis - not to be stuck on it as in fact some of our evangelical brethern tend to be, but to acknowledge and remind our members that your good works are “filthy rags” unless you’re in a state of grace, and the state of grace is just that - unmerited, unearnable grace!!
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NotWorthy
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Well, we can encourage everyone to attend RCIA at least every 5 years. Of course, the ones who go would typically be the ones that don’t need it. Sad.
Have you ever noticed that converts are usually better catechized than cradlers?
I think it all boils down to thinking - “If I can ‘work’ my way into heaven, then I’m still in control of my own destiny”. We may not realize this way of thinking, but it seems to be a part of us.
There is an ingrained need in each of us to be in control, and this urge has to be relinquished when we die to ourselves and are truly reborn to Christ.
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ron77nyc
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Here’s an interesting discussion from another thread that ties in with Ephesians 2. Is a deathbed conversion salvation by faith alone without works?
ALL sins and the temporal punishment is wiped away with Baptism. Unless a person sins between the Baptism and their death, they go straight to Heaven.
Although a deathbed baptism would presumably allow a person to skip Purgatory, he would be the least in the kingdom of Heaven because he would enter Heaven with no treasure (merit) based on his good works done in the state of grace while he was alive.
I would rather be the least in Heaven than the best in Hell.
Nothing disordered can enter into heaven. Does Baptism cleanse the soul of all disordered thoughts and the desire to sin? I’m not saying that the soul doesn’t go straight to heaven. But somehow all evil desires and misordered thoughts must be purged. If you think that’s an instantaneous purgation, so be it - that would be acceptable.
It was common practice back in the early days of the Church for people to be baptised on their deathbed. The reason for this is what has already been stated by those who know; the person will go straight to heaven. This has been a teaching of the Church for 2000 years.
**Re: Deathbed Baptism - Skip Purgatory? **
I watched Father Corapi and he said that someone baptised on their deathbed would go straight to Heaven. Baptism takes away original sin and all personal sins.ALL sins and the temporal punishment is wiped away with Baptism. Unless a person sins between the Baptism and their death, they go straight to Heaven.
Although a deathbed baptism would presumably allow a person to skip Purgatory, he would be the least in the kingdom of Heaven because he would enter Heaven with no treasure (merit) based on his good works done in the state of grace while he was alive.
I would rather be the least in Heaven than the best in Hell.
Nothing disordered can enter into heaven. Does Baptism cleanse the soul of all disordered thoughts and the desire to sin? I’m not saying that the soul doesn’t go straight to heaven. But somehow all evil desires and misordered thoughts must be purged. If you think that’s an instantaneous purgation, so be it - that would be acceptable.
It was common practice back in the early days of the Church for people to be baptised on their deathbed. The reason for this is what has already been stated by those who know; the person will go straight to heaven. This has been a teaching of the Church for 2000 years.
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Bastoune
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In any event, any Catholic that is “confused” by the relationship between grace, faith and works, and has the gall to blame the Church for not teaching it, really needs to wake up during Mass and PAY ATTENTION to the Scriptures being read and the homilies about them.
It is the job of the presbyters and deacons of our Mother Church to “feed the sheep” and instruct them according to the Word so that we, the faithful, remain in Christ as we “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:11) – which is a verse that Protestants wish they could remove from their Bibles mind you because it shoots down the notion even more clearly than others that we’re just passive “believers” saved by faith alone (cf. James 2:14-25).
The epistles of the NT spend MORE TIME telling the faithful not to “convert” (they already have – Romans is a book on how to convert as it’s a mini-Catechism) but rather how to LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE in the Church.
It is the job of the presbyters and deacons of our Mother Church to “feed the sheep” and instruct them according to the Word so that we, the faithful, remain in Christ as we “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:11) – which is a verse that Protestants wish they could remove from their Bibles mind you because it shoots down the notion even more clearly than others that we’re just passive “believers” saved by faith alone (cf. James 2:14-25).
The epistles of the NT spend MORE TIME telling the faithful not to “convert” (they already have – Romans is a book on how to convert as it’s a mini-Catechism) but rather how to LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE in the Church.
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Bastoune
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Common, no.
In fact it was strongly DISCOURAGED for those who thought they’d have an easier ride by waiting until the deathbed for baptsim.
No one knows when he/she will die. Living a lifetime without baptism denies one access to the other Sacraments.
Why? Because without baptism, you are not a member of the Church. Your whole faith is in doubt since you are denying the first thing you are instructed to do when you believe.
Not much of a life in Christ then, is it?
I am sorry Ron, but you are so ignorant of Catholic teaching it is painful to read.
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ron77nyc
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Those statements were all made by Catholics on another thread. They were not from me.
It seems I’ve made my point about what people are being taught.
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Bastoune
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Then they only prove that people are just refusing to listen to the Church and trusting their catechesis to Dan Brown than listening to the Church which is VERY open about her teachings!!! They should actually ATTEND MASS for a change… or stay awake during it.
On the subject you brought up, St. Leo the Great, pope, wrote the following to Rusticus, bishop of Narbonne (Gaul, now France) who had asked exactly the same question:
My apologies to you, Ron, if I misunderstood what you were saying.
If such a practice were “common” (which is a little steep to say) it was strongly discouraged. I know Constantine opted for a baptism on his deathbed but then again, Constantine was an idiot who tried to manipulate Christianity to suit his own agenda (though his mom was a fervent believer, his son Constantius, for example was an Arian who persecuted orthodox bishops, including Athanasius).
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Randy_Carson
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Ephesians 2:8-10Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.
A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?
Ephesians 2:8-10
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Amen! Catholics agree that we are saved by grace and not by works. In this passage, Paul is not pitting works against faith, and the passage never tries to focus on the inner workings of justification. He is pitting works against grace (notice the use of the preposition “by”, twice)! This verse says that we are saved by grace; that even the faith we have is a gracious gift; and that the works we do are nothing to boast of because they too are a gracious gift. It is all grace through and through, from beginning to end.
However, the word “alone” does not appear anywhere in this passage. We are not saved by “faith alone” as James points out clearly in James 2:24.
The following two articles cover Ephesians 2:8-9 in greater detail:
"NOT BY WORKS"
By James Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9706chap.asp
**Faith and Works **
By Jimmy Akin
catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp
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