Ephesians 2:8-9

[catholic1seeks]

Ephesians 2:8 RSV For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God–
Ephesians 2:9 RSV not because of works, lest any man should boast.

A fundamentalist Baptist asked me to explain this verse to her. How do I explain it?

Whether the passage uses “works” to mean the Works of the Law or Good Works, it would hold true for Catholic teaching. For we do nothing to merit* initial justification*.

Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense-“you have been saved.” In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action.

We know from other passages in Paul that salvation also has present and future.aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8-9 is initial salvation. It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (cf. 1 Peter 1:8-9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we will one day receive (cf. Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5). “Faith and Works”​

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

 

[Nita]

If I understand correctly, either the catholic catechism or counsels of Trent which pronounces an anathema on those who say that men are not saved by works. Am I correct?

You are not correct. The Council of Trent says just the opposite – in the very first Canon of Session VI on Justification. (Don’t know how ron77nyc missed it when he researched the canons for his response on post #30.)

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

Here is a link for those who would like to check out all of the canons.
history.hanover.edu/early/trent.html
Just click on “The Sixth Session”. Scroll down about 2/3 of the way and you’ll get to where the Canons are listed.

Nita

 

[Strategery]

In any event, any Catholic that is “confused” by the relationship between grace, faith and works, and has the gall to blame the Church for not teaching it, really needs to wake up during Mass and PAY ATTENTION to the Scriptures being read and the homilies about them.

It is the job of the presbyters and deacons of our Mother Church to “feed the sheep” and instruct them according to the Word so that we, the faithful, remain in Christ as we “continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Philippians 2:11) – which is a verse that Protestants wish they could remove from their Bibles mind you because it shoots down the notion even more clearly than others that we’re just passive “believers” saved by faith alone (cf. James 2:14-25).

The epistles of the NT spend MORE TIME telling the faithful not to “convert” (they already have – Romans is a book on how to convert as it’s a mini-Catechism) but rather how to LIVE A CHRISTIAN LIFE in the Church.

You know, I can’t fathom the tone of your responses at all. Here we have a Catholic brother explaining his journey toward salvation, and it very much appears that you are chastising him. I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt as to your true intent, but that is exactly how it reads.

We are called to give people a reason for the hope we have, with gentleness and respect.

 

[Strategery]

Well, we can encourage everyone to attend RCIA at least every 5 years. Of course, the ones who go would typically be the ones that don’t need it. Sad.

Have you ever noticed that converts are usually better catechized than cradlers?

That’s because converts are hearing the teaching after being moved by God to change their path. They are receiving the teaching at exactly the right time in their spiritual development.

If you are a cradle catholic, that doesn’t necessarily happen. Personally I was 32 before I started to wake up.

 

[NotWorthy]

If you are a cradle catholic, that doesn’t necessarily happen. Personally I was 32 before I started to wake up.

Yes, I was about 38!!! And my “awakening” took several years. I must have been a real deep sleeper!

But you’re right. To learn, first and foremost, one must desire to learn.

 

[ron77nyc]

You know, I can’t fathom the tone of your responses at all. Here we have a Catholic brother explaining his journey toward salvation, and it very much appears that you are chastising him. I’m willing to give the benefit of the doubt as to your true intent, but that is exactly how it reads.

We are called to give people a reason for the hope we have, with gentleness and respect.

Thanks. I know he is angry about what I have to say but I don’t want to get into a personal war with him. I’d rather make my point about Ephesians 2. Here’s an example. Let’s say the Pope goes to a voodoo practicing country and speaks out against demon spirits as he is doing now and a man at the end of his life repents because has never heard the gospel before and didn’t know there was another way until now. That man gets baptized and dies immediately. According to Catholic teaching he goes straight to heaven. Is that salvation by faith alone without any good deeds?

 

[krakee]

Here’s an example. Let’s say the Pope goes to a voodoo practicing country and speaks out against demon spirits as he is doing now and a man at the end of his life repents because has never heard the gospel before and didn’t know there was another way until now. That man gets baptized and dies immediately. According to Catholic teaching he goes straight to heaven. Is that salvation by faith alone without any good deeds?

No, that’s salvation by GRACE alone through faith. Let’s not confuse faith alone with grace alone. The problem arises when we try to add “alone” to either faith or works. It just doesn’t work. Did this man fulfill his obligation? Objectively speaking, yes, when presented with the Truth of the Gospel he had to make a decision. He could accept and be Baptized or turn away. He accepted, his initial coming to Christ was completed… just as Eph 2:8-9 states.

I think you would agree this is not the norm for most people. We don’t know when we will die and the Bible was written with this in mind. The Bible teaches salvation as a past, present and future event as I’m sure you’re aware there is more than one verse in the Bible, and in this verse I did not see the word “alone” describing faith.

Past event: Eph 2:8-9 current topic.

Present event: Did this man “work out his salvation with fear and trembling”? (Phil 2:12) I would say that by realizing the Truth and accepting and being Baptized he did. If someone erroneously thought we were saved by works alone they might point out that he was saved by getting himself Baptized. That is something he did but we all know we are not saved by works alone just as we are not saved by faith alone.

Future event: Did this man “endure to the end to be saved”? (Mat 10:22) Luckily for him it was instantaneous. However, we do not know the thoughts of the man and are assuming he did not have a change of heart the very instant after Baptism. We should never assume but we do know one thing, he was definitely saved (past tense) by GRACE ALONE.

Now to add my 2 cents for Eph 2:8-9, I think I saw someone already post this but just in case I’ll re-state it:

Notice that the passage speaks of salvation in the past tense—“you have been saved.” In Greek this is the perfect tense, which denotes a past, completed action. We know from the Bible that salvation also has present and future aspects, so the kind of salvation Paul is discussing in Ephesians 2:8–9 is initial salvation (because of what Jesus did – opened the gates of heaven by His death on the cross). It is the kind which we received when we first came to God and were justified, not the kind of salvation we are now receiving (1 Pet. 1:8–9, Phil. 2:12) or the kind we one day will receive (Rom. 13:11, 1 Cor. 3:15, 5:5).

If you read on in Ephesians you will see more clearly what Jesus meant in Ephesians 2:8 – 9, especially in verse 13 He says “13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ.” (Ephesians 2:13, RSV) It is interesting to note that Jesus says “brought near” and “in the blood of Christ.” It is what He did (death on the cross) to bring us (sinners) “near”. It does not say He brought us “in” and that we can now just sit back and relax, does it?

 

[NHInsider]

Thanks. I know he is angry about what I have to say but I don’t want to get into a personal war with him. I’d rather make my point about Ephesians 2. Here’s an example. Let’s say the Pope goes to a voodoo practicing country and speaks out against demon spirits as he is doing now and a man at the end of his life repents because has never heard the gospel before and didn’t know there was another way until now. That man gets baptized and dies immediately. According to Catholic teaching he goes straight to heaven. Is that salvation by faith alone without any good deeds?

Hmmm. You know that difficult parable about the man who hires groups of people all day long - some work all day, some work half a day, and some work only a couple of hours, and in the end he pays them all the same - the agreed-upon wage? And when the ones that worked all day complain, the Master says 'are you jealous because I am generous?" (I’m referencing from memory here, so don’t bash me . . .) Suddenly I’m seeing a connection I never thought of before - whether it’s this hypothetical ancient pagan or the repentent thief on the cross, Jesus says “this day you’ll be with me in paradise” and our reaction is “hey, what about me? I’ve been out here sweating all this time . . .”

(Note - Ron, I’m not suggesting that was your implication in the question. But I do think it is one of the reasons some of us struggle with this concept.

Lord enable us to rejoice in the return of the lost sheep without whining about whether or not Your generosity is “fair.”

 

[garysibio]

Hmmm. You know that difficult parable about the man who hires groups of people all day long - some work all day, some work half a day, and some work only a couple of hours, and in the end he pays them all the same - the agreed-upon wage? And when the ones that worked all day complain, the Master says 'are you jealous because I am generous?" (I’m referencing from memory here, so don’t bash me . . .) Suddenly I’m seeing a connection I never thought of before - whether it’s this hypothetical ancient pagan or the repentent thief on the cross, Jesus says “this day you’ll be with me in paradise” and our reaction is “hey, what about me? I’ve been out here sweating all this time . . .”

(Note - Ron, I’m not suggesting that was your implication in the question. But I do think it is one of the reasons some of us struggle with this concept.

Lord enable us to rejoice in the return of the lost sheep without whining about whether or not Your generosity is “fair.”

Good insight. Thanks for sharing it.

Gary

 

[ron77nyc]

No, that’s salvation by GRACE alone through faith.

I like your summation. “Grace alone” says it all. If my imaginary friend lives another 25 years then he would have to persevere until the end as we all do-----by the grace of God.

 

[guanophore]

The problem that exists now is that the Catholic Church has not always been clear about it. They used to tell people that they were saved by good works.

Who are “they”?

Can you please show where the Catholic Church has taught that we can be saved by doing “good works”?

Purgatory was at one time thought to be a place where you could pay for your sins.

This is the teaching of Jesus. However, one must be clear that this “payment” is not the eternal payment that Jesus paid once for all, but the temporal consequences of sins.

The Catholic Church has always taught that if a person has a deathbed conversion and gets baptized, that person will go straight to heaven. Isn’t that salvation by faith alone without works?

If such a person were to live, then such a one would be expected to do the works that God prepared beforehand, that they should walk in them. One of these is baptism.

I never knew I was saved by grace through faith until I was about 18 yrs. old when it was explained in a Protestant church. I never knew I was a Christian. The only thing that was important when I was growing up was being a Catholic. Here’s a link that explains the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church.

Perhaps this answers my question? Perhaps “they” are the persons who are responsible for the poor catechesis you experienced?

"When I began teaching, in a small primary school in Sydney in 1964, religious education was mostly about “reproduction”. I had learnt the catechism, word perfect. I was expected to teach the catechism word perfect. The main aim was the reproduction of good Catholics. In a book written in the 1950s the Church was described, typically:

The Catholic Church is a divinely instituted society, of which all the members profess the doctrine of Christ and are united under the teaching and rule of the Roman Pontiff and the Bishops subject to him, that thereby they may strive after holiness and obtain salvation. Like all other societies it has, therefore, a system of authority by which it is ruled, and by which it was established."

Most of us that were catechized in the Latin Rite during this period suffered the same misconceptions. Do you disagree with what you have written here?

The Bible was not an option back then.

Is that right? None printed in English?

No Missal in your parish?

If you don’t tell people they are saved by grace and you do tell them about “striving for holiness and obtain salvation” then what are you actually teaching? You are teaching obtaining salvation by your own effort. It was a religious system. Under that system you could have a nice religion even if you had no faith in Jesus. We had the mass, confession, the sacraments and most importantly we belonged to the right church.

I agree. I think the catachesis missed the mark. However, this is not the Teaching of the Church, and is a unique American/Latin Rite malady.

Yes we were certainly ignorant of Christ because the bible and faith were never mentioned. We didn’t have a St. Jerome in our parish.We went to purgatory for a venial sin and hell for a mortal sin if you died before getting to confession. That was the plan of salvation that was laid out for us and I think lots of Catholics still live by it.

Do you think I may have missed something in 12 years of Catholic school? Maybe I was out sick the day they were teaching salvation by faith.

It is a sad commentary that many of us catechized during that time did not discover scripture until leaving Catholicism to fraternize with Protestants.

I think you are right about many Catholics still being uninformed about salvation by grace. Yes, clearly we missed quite a bit during 12 years of Catholic school! However, I doubt very much because we were out sick. I think the nature of the education is to blame for that. However, this is because it did not adequately reflect what the Catholic Church believes and teaches.

 

[guanophore]

If I understand correctly, either the catholic catechism or counsels of Trent which pronounces an anathema on those who say that men are not saved by works. Am I correct?

No, it more accurately addresses the error in the OP, which is taking eph 2:8-9 while leaving out v. 10. The Apostles did not separate the works produced by Grace from the faith through which we access that grace. Faith and grace are never “alone”. they are always accompanied by the fruits that befit repentance.

I agree. They do now. They did not always do it.
The link you gave is all true. The bible was read at mass but never explained, Jesus was always in the Eucharist but salvation by faith was never explained. I had faith because I accepted everything I learned about Jesus from the nuns and priests but I didn’t know my faith made me justified before God. After 2000 years they are finally getting around to bible study where all that stuff is explained. Is that difficult to comprehend? I thank God for those Protestants who ministered to me and taught me His word. we are all one Body of Christ. The monsignor at my parish tells us to take all the we can from the Protestants.

I, too, thank God for what I learned from my separated brethren. One of those things is that there have been various periods in the Church where certain regions, for a variety of reasons,were very poorly catechized. This has not been the case around the world, and certainly not for 2000 years! You are judging the history of the Church through the lens of your own personal experience, and your conclusion is skewed.

How do you know what I was taught?

I was there! If it was not the same school, it was similar! I also agree with you that the blame cannot be placed upon yourself, entirely, either. It has been suggested that you were lazy or deaf, and I don’t agree with that.

I haven't even told you everything. No one is capable of knowing what every church teaches in every part of the world at any given time in history.

This being the case, would you be willing to accept that your conclusion that the Catholic Church has had poor catechesis for 2000 years might be myopic?

Obviously from the links you have posted for me to read there are many people who have had the same experience I have had. They came to a fuller understanding of salvation outside the Catholic Church.

This much is certain.

There are many factors involved: time, location and teachers. It’s not about Protestant vs Catholic. It’s about biblical truth vs men’s fables. I think all religions have the same problem. They all have divisions, good and bad teachers, fundamentalists, traditionalists, etc. Pope Benedict agrees with Luther on salvation by faith alone. In the Middle Ages he would have been tortured for saying that.

I would not even call it “biblical truth”, since the Catholic Church is not “bible based”. I would say it is consistency with the Apostolic Teaching. The bible, properly interpreted, is consistent with what the Apostles taught, and therefore, with what has been preserved in the Catholic Church.

 

[guanophore]

“If anyone should say that justifying faith is nothing more than confidence in the divine mercy because it remits sin for the sake of Jesus Christ…let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, canon 12)

This is a refutation against the Reformation teaching that a person can “confess” (have confidence) in divine mercy for the remission of sin, then engage in any manner of sinful behavior and still be saved. It is to reinforce the Aposotlic Teaching that we must bear fruit that befits repentance.

“If anyone should say that justice when received is not preserved and augmented before God by good works, but that good works are only fruits or signs of justice obtained: let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, canon 24)

The Reformers taught that salvation was a “once for all” proposition. Whereas, what we havfe received from the Apostles is that salvation encompasses justification, sanctification, and glorification. One is not “saved” until all parts of it are complete. During sanctification, the obedience of faith through which we, by grace,through faith, fulfill the works that God has set aside for us to do enables us to receive more grace. To the one that has, more will be given. As we do the good works God has prepared, we are continually disposed to more grace, and become more and more made into the image and likeness of Christ.

“If anyone should say that the good works of a just man are so entirely the gift of God that they are not also meritorious for this just man…let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, can. 31)

This statement is a refutation of the erroneous Reformed teaching that we are not expected to participate in sanctification. The Apostles taught that we are to cooperate with grace, and that, in this cooperation, we do bring rewards to ourselves.

“If anyone says that the just man, through the good works which he accomplishes by the grace of God and through the merits of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit and increase of grace, and also eternal life and the securing of eternal life itself (provided that he dies in the state of grace), and that he does not receive even an increase of glory: let him be anathema.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, can. 32).

Again this statement addresses the appropriate place of works in salvation. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do HIs good pleasure. As we walk in His ways, we increase in holiness. On the contrary, the Reformers taught that personal holiness was not possible, humans are snow covered dung heaps.

“It is not possible, without a special revelation, to know those whom God has chosen for Himself.” (Council of Trent, Session VI, chap. 12). If anyone should say that he is certain, with an absolute and infallible certainty, that he will enjoy the great gift of final perseverance, without learning it by a special revelation: let him be anathema” (Council of Trent, Session VI, canon 16).

This is a refutation against OSAS. Salvation is up to God, and none of us know whether we will finish the race. The Apostles taught that one could become a partaker of grace,then fall from that grace, be cut off from the vine, or have one’s name blotted out of the book of life.

The Council of Trent says we can secure eternal life with good works but we can’t know if we have eternal life except by a special revelation even if we die in a state of grace. Dying in a state of grace was always taught as getting hit by a truck right after confession.

No, Trent does not say we can secure eternal life with good works. You have misunderstood the Teaching of the Church. You have to take these statements in context, and understand what theological errors are being addressed by them.

Only God can judge whether we are in a state of grace. He his the one who judges the secrets of the heart. we strive, as much as we are able, to remain in right relationship with God, but we do not presume to know even ourselves completely. He alone can see the hidden intentions within us. The Apostles taught that it is presumptuous to judge ourselves.

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

The reformers here fell into the error of acquitting themselves before the time.

You can live your whole life trying to do the right thing and never be sure if you did enough. Is that the gospel message?

I am sure that is the message you got. I know because I got the same one! However, this is not the teaching of the Church.

 

[allisonP]

This is a refutation against the Reformation teaching that a person can “confess” (have confidence) in divine mercy for the remission of sin, then engage in any manner of sinful behavior and still be saved. It is to reinforce the Aposotlic Teaching that we must bear fruit that befits repentance.

The Reformers taught that salvation was a “once for all” proposition. Whereas, what we havfe received from the Apostles is that salvation encompasses justification, sanctification, and glorification. One is not “saved” until all parts of it are complete. During sanctification, the obedience of faith through which we, by grace,through faith, fulfill the works that God has set aside for us to do enables us to receive more grace. To the one that has, more will be given. As we do the good works God has prepared, we are continually disposed to more grace, and become more and more made into the image and likeness of Christ.

This statement is a refutation of the erroneous Reformed teaching that we are not expected to participate in sanctification. The Apostles taught that we are to cooperate with grace, and that, in this cooperation, we do bring rewards to ourselves.

Again this statement addresses the appropriate place of works in salvation. It is God who is at work in us to will and to do HIs good pleasure. As we walk in His ways, we increase in holiness. On the contrary, the Reformers taught that personal holiness was not possible, humans are snow covered dung heaps.

This is a refutation against OSAS. Salvation is up to God, and none of us know whether we will finish the race. The Apostles taught that one could become a partaker of grace,then fall from that grace, be cut off from the vine, or have one’s name blotted out of the book of life.

No, Trent does not say we can secure eternal life with good works. You have misunderstood the Teaching of the Church. You have to take these statements in context, and understand what theological errors are being addressed by them.

Only God can judge whether we are in a state of grace. He his the one who judges the secrets of the heart. we strive, as much as we are able, to remain in right relationship with God, but we do not presume to know even ourselves completely. He alone can see the hidden intentions within us. The Apostles taught that it is presumptuous to judge ourselves.

1 Cor 4:3-5
I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

The reformers here fell into the error of acquitting themselves before the time.

I am sure that is the message you got. I know because I got the same one! However, this is not the teaching of the Church.

So you can know before dieing if you did enough? I am still confused.
I know that it is by Gods grace that we are given the gift (opportunity?) to be saved. But do we not need to do good works in order to “work out our salvation”?

 

[ron77nyc]

Who are “they”?

Can you please show where the Catholic Church has taught that we can be saved by doing “good works”?

wethirstlord.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=47:baltimorecatechism&Itemid=60&layout=default
“A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, prepared and enjoined by Order of the Third Council of Baltimore, was the de facto standard Catholic school text in the United States from 1885 to the late 1960s. It was the first such catechism written for Catholics in North America. The Baltimore Catechism remained in use in nearly all Catholic schools until the introduction of the current Cathechism of the Catholic Church was introduced after Vatican II. Both provide true and accurate teachings of the norms of the Catholic faith.”

Q. 154. What must we do to save our souls?
A. To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.
Q. 155. What does “worship” mean?
A. “Worship” means to give divine honor by acts such as the offering of prayer or sacrifice.
Q. 1376. Why does Christ judge men immediately after death?
A. Christ judges men immediately after death to reward or punish them according to their deeds.
Q. 1377. How may we daily prepare for our judgment?
A. We may daily prepare for our judgment by a good examination of conscience, in which we will discover our sins and learn to fear the punishment they deserve.
Q. 1378. What are the rewards or punishments appointed for men’s souls after the Particular Judgment?
A. The rewards or punishments appointed for men’s souls after the Particular Judgment are Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell.
Q. 1379. What is Hell?
A. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.
Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?
A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.
Q. 1395. What is Heaven?
A. Heaven is the state of everlasting life in which we see God face to face, are made like unto Him in glory, and enjoy eternal happiness.
Q. 1398. Are the rewards in heaven and the punishments in hell the same for all who enter into either of these states?
A. The rewards of heaven and the punishments in hell are not the same for all who enter into either of these states, because each one’s reward or punishment is in proportion to the amount of good or evil he has done in this world. But as heaven and hell are everlasting, each one will enjoy his reward or suffer his punishment forever.
Q. 1399. What words should we bear always in mind?
A. We should bear always in mind these words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ: “What doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul, or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then will He render to every man according to his works.”

Q. 1400. Name some of the more essential religious truths we must know and believe.
A. Some of the more essential religious truths we must know and believe are:

1. That there is but one God, and He will reward the good and punish the wicked.
2. That in God there are three Divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these Divine Persons are called the Blessed Trinity.
3. That Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man and died for our redemption.
4. That the grace of God is necessary for our salvation.
5. That the human soul is immortal.

The grace of God is mentioned once as if it were a very minor detail.

 

[NotWorthy]

So you can know before dieing if you did enough? I am still confused.
I know that it is by Gods grace that we are given the gift (opportunity?) to be saved. But do we not need to do good works in order to “work out our salvation”?

Hmmmm… if you had the opportunity to help a brother or sister in need, and you refused. What would Jesus think of this?

 

[Nita]

wethirstlord.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=47:baltimorecatechism&Itemid=60&layout=default
“A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, prepared and enjoined by Order of the Third Council of Baltimore, was the de facto standard Catholic school text in the United States from 1885 to the late 1960s. It was the first such catechism written for Catholics in North America. The Baltimore Catechism remained in use in nearly all Catholic schools until the introduction of the current Cathechism of the Catholic Church was introduced after Vatican II. Both provide true and accurate teachings of the norms of the Catholic faith.”
…
**The grace of God is mentioned once as if it were a very minor detail. **

Why did you entirely skip the section on the Effects of Redemption - Questions numbered 453 through 481 and the section on the Sacraments. There are loads of questions dealing with grace. For the sake of brevity I’ll just give a couple of examples from “The Effects of Redemption” section:
Q. 453. Which are the chief effects of the Redemption?
A. The chief effects of the Redemption are two: The satisfaction of God’s justice by Christ’s sufferings and death, and the gaining of grace for men.

Q. 456. What do you mean by grace?
A. By grace I mean a supernatural gift of God bestowed on us, through the merits of Jesus Christ, for our salvation.

Q. 476. **Is grace necessary to salvation? **
A. Grace is necessary to salvation, because without grace we can do nothing to merit heaven.

Q. 481. Can we merit the grace of final perseverance or know when we possess it?
A. We cannot merit the grace of final perseverance, or know when we possess it, because it depends entirely upon God’s mercy and not upon our actions. To imagine we possess it would lead us into the sin of presumption.

By the way, that is not the actual Baltimore Catechism on the site you gave, which I discovered when the question numbers did not at all coincide with those in my Baltimore. The paragraph following the one you gave states, “… However, we and many others continue to have a fondness for the simplicity of the Baltimore Catechism. We provide the same lessons we studied with the nuns who taught us for you here.” Not sure who the “we” are.
However, near as I can tell it accurately repeats the Catechism, at least in part. My Baltimore has only 421 questions with the answers given. Some additional questions (without the answer given) are included in the back.

You know, both with the Trent Canons and now with the Baltimore Catechism, you skip over the parts pertinent to the particular topic and then imply, or actually put forward, a false judgement on what the Church previously taught. Why?
Are you actually reading the sources and deliberately passing over those pertinent sections?
Or are you getting your info from a secondary source who has chosen to give only highly selected quotes to support their position?

 

[ron77nyc]

Why did you entirely skip the section on the Effects of Redemption - Questions numbered 453 through 481 and the section on the Sacraments. There are loads of questions dealing with grace…
You know, both with the Trent Canons and now with the Baltimore Catechism, you skip over the parts pertinent to the particular topic and then imply, or actually put forward, a false judgement on what the Church previously taught. Why?
Are you actually reading the sources and deliberately passing over those pertinent sections?
Or are you getting your info from a secondary source who has chosen to give only highly selected quotes to support their position?

I included everything I was taught. We get to heaven by not sinning. It was all about our own behavior and God’s judgement.

The bible tells us that we are declared righteous because of our faith which is a gift from God. We will be with God if we persevere until the end. It is a message of hope and a reason to persevere.

I’m sure that you and others received a message of hope from your teachers but I didn’t and I don’t know anyone else who did. I was discussing salvation with my brother and I asked him if he knew any bible stories. He said he only knew what they taught him in Catholic school. I said, “What was that?” He said, “If you’re good you go to heaven. If you’re bad you go to hell.” So I said, “What did you think about that?” He said, “I didn’t know what to think.”

 

[Nita]

I included everything I was taught. We get to heaven by not sinning. It was all about our own behavior and God’s judgement.

The bible tells us that we are declared righteous because of our faith which is a gift from God. We will be with God if we persevere until the end. It is a message of hope and a reason to persevere.

I’m sure that you and others received a message of hope from your teachers but I didn’t and I don’t know anyone else who did. I was discussing salvation with my brother and I asked him if he knew any bible stories. He said he only knew what they taught him in Catholic school. I said, “What was that?” He said, “If you’re good you go to heaven. If you’re bad you go to hell.” So I said, “What did you think about that?” He said, “I didn’t know what to think.”

How did you receive your instruction as a child? Did you go to a Catholic grade school and get daily instruction from the Baltimore? If so, I can hardly believe you wouldn’t remember something about sanctifying grace and that it was the presence of this grace in our souls that was the key to whether or not we would go to heaven. (Since we students had all been baptized as babies, it didn’t take a mental giant to figure out there was nothing we had to do - works - to merit it.) Also that we received this grace in Baptism and that the only way we lost it was through mortal sin - but if we made a sincere confession, it would be restored to our soul.

As to Scripture, as well as the nuns telling us about Jesus, and one year where we had Bible history, we went to daily Mass with our Missals that had the English translation. So, 6 days a week I heard Gospel and Epistle passages from Scripture.

All of that is still true. So our actions after reaching the age of reason are very, very, important. And I would say that those who downplay their importance and say they have little or nothing to do with whether or not we go to heaven, are the ones who are ignorant of Scripture.

I’m very sorry you didn’t get better instruction. Too bad they didn’t use the Baltimore Catechmism more faithfully.

Nita

 

[Nita]

I included everything I was taught. We get to heaven by not sinning. It was all about our own behavior and God’s judgement.

The bible tells us that we are declared righteous because of our faith which is a gift from God. We will be with God if we persevere until the end. It is a message of hope and a reason to persevere.

."

You are treating Scripture the same way you did the Trent Canons and the Catechism. You are picking out certain verses/parts (that suit your purposes or desires) and presenting it as tho it is the entirety of the teaching. The Bible says far more about what is required for salvation. You cannot ignore those verses if you wish to have the full truth.