Ephesians 2:8-9

[ron77nyc]

You are treating Scripture the same way you did the Trent Canons and the Catechism. You are picking out certain verses/parts (that suit your purposes or desires) and presenting it as tho it is the entirety of the teaching. The Bible says far more about what is required for salvation. You cannot ignore those verses if you wish to have the full truth.

I’m just paying attention to the pope.

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

And, he reaffirms to the Christians of Rome that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:23-24). And he adds: “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (Ibid. 28). Luther translated this point as “justified by faith alone.” I will return to this at the end of the catechesis.

That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence, to believe is to be conformed to Christ and to enter into his love. That is why, in the Letter to the Galatians, St. Paul develops above all his doctrine on justification; he speaks of faith that operates through charity (cf. Galatians 5:14).

In our continuing catechesis on St. Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that **it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God. **

 

[NotWorthy]

I’m just paying attention to the pope.

zenit.org/article-24302?l=english

And, he reaffirms to the Christians of Rome that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Romans 3:23-24). And he adds: “For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (Ibid. 28). Luther translated this point as “justified by faith alone.” I will return to this at the end of the catechesis.

That is why Luther’s expression “sola fide” is true if faith is not opposed to charity, to love. Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence, to believe is to be conformed to Christ and to enter into his love. That is why, in the Letter to the Galatians, St. Paul develops above all his doctrine on justification; he speaks of faith that operates through charity (cf. Galatians 5:14).

In our continuing catechesis on St. Paul, we now consider his teaching on our justification. Paul’s experience of the Risen Lord on the road to Damascus led him to see that **it is only by faith in Christ, and not by any merit of our own, that we are made righteous before God. **

But you ignored what “Faith in Christ” means in your very own post.

Faith is to look at Christ, to entrust oneself to Christ, to be united to Christ, to be conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence, to believe is to be conformed to Christ and to enter into his love.

Being “conformed to Christ” is not simply professing "I have Faith in Jesus as my Lord and Savior". It means living the life that He taught. Familiarize yourself with His parables and you’ll see what “conforming to Christ” means. It’s a way of life.

Also, if you look at what Jesus teaches (and remember, Paul’s teachings must be read in the light of Christ’s Words) on our own Judgment. You’ll find that every time Jesus teaches about our Judgment, what we do in this World has a profound effect on where we go in the next.

Our actions don’t merit Salvation, no more so than the workers in the field merited a full day’s wages for working one hour. But Jesus promises this reward to those who follow His Way.

 

[ron77nyc]

You are treating Scripture the same way you did the Trent Canons and the Catechism. You are picking out certain verses/parts (that suit your purposes or desires) and presenting it as tho it is the entirety of the teaching.

But you ignored what “Faith in Christ” means in your very own post.

I can’t post the entire Council of Trent, Baltimore Catechism or message from the pope. I give the links and points that I want to zero in on in order to conform to forum rules.

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[NotWorthy]

I can’t post the entire Council of Trent, Baltimore Catechism or message from the pope. I give the links and points that I want to zero in on in order to conform to forum rules.

But that was my point. You zeroed in on what you felt was the most important thing from the Council, which talks of “conforming to Christ”. I was simply pointing out that “conforming to Christ” is much more than the typical “Believer’s only” opinion of Ephesians 2:8-9.

Conforming to Christ is conforming to His teachings… His Parables… His commandments.

 

[ron77nyc]

But that was my point. You zeroed in on what you felt was the most important thing from the Council, which talks of “conforming to Christ”. I was simply pointing out that “conforming to Christ” is much more than the typical “Believer’s only” opinion of Ephesians 2:8-9.

We were talking about salvation by works so I focused on the canons that spoke about works and you were right; Trent does not say we are saved by works.

If I understand correctly, either the catholic catechism or counsels of Trent which pronounces an anathema on those who say that men are not saved by works. Am I correct?

Yes, that’s right. There is also an anathema for those who preach a gospel other than the one taught by the apostles.

Conforming to Christ is conforming to His teachings… His Parables… His commandments.

I agree but we do not become like Jesus by following laws. The purpose of the law was to lead us to Christ. When we follow Christ we will obey the law. He is the fullfillment of the law. It seems like whenever someone starts talking salvation by faith it implies once saved always saved and sin all you want. I never said that.

 

[NotWorthy]

I agree but we do not become like Jesus by following laws. The purpose of the law was to lead us to Christ. When we follow Christ we will obey the law. He is the fullfillment of the law. It seems like whenever someone starts talking salvation by faith it implies once saved always saved and sin all you want. I never said that.

And I don’t think I accused you of saying that. My point was focusing on Faith Alone, will not save you. It will lead you to salvation, but you must then conform to Christ once you are in the race… the race that your faith brought you to.

We become like Jesus when we obey His commandments… Love one another as I have loved you. Everything He taught was based on love of God first, and love of one another. Everything He did taught us how we were to act on this love.

 

[ron77nyc]

And I don’t think I accused you of saying that. My point was focusing on Faith Alone, will not save you. It will lead you to salvation, but you must then conform to Christ once you are in the race… the race that your faith brought you to.

We become like Jesus when we obey His commandments… Love one another as I have loved you. Everything He taught was based on love of God first, and love of one another. Everything He did taught us how we were to act on this love.

I agree. The commandments will tell us when we have strayed from the course but our attention is to be focused on Christ and being focused on Christ we will be able to do even more than we could do before. We will go beyond the requirements of the law but not in our own strength. This is what Pope Benedict refers to as being in Christ when he quotes Paul.

 

[guanophore]

Thanks. I know he is angry about what I have to say but I don’t want to get into a personal war with him. I’d rather make my point about Ephesians 2. Here’s an example. Let’s say the Pope goes to a voodoo practicing country and speaks out against demon spirits as he is doing now and a man at the end of his life repents because has never heard the gospel before and didn’t know there was another way until now. That man gets baptized and dies immediately. According to Catholic teaching he goes straight to heaven. Is that salvation by faith alone without any good deeds?

Yes. Good deeds are not required for salvation, as is often purported here. They are a natural function of being in a state of grace, but infants who are baptized and die, elders, frail, ill and disabled persons who cannot do any deeds can be saved, and persons such as the one in this scenario, who are baptized on their death bed are also saved by grace, through faith.

For those of us who have not died immediately after we are baptized, our faith is expected to be manifested in our daily life, and we will be judged by our actions.

 

[guanophore]

So you can know before dieing if you did enough? I am still confused.
I know that it is by Gods grace that we are given the gift (opportunity?) to be saved. But do we not need to do good works in order to “work out our salvation”?

There is no amount of “doing” on our part that will result in salvation. Being saved is about being in a state of grace. when we are in that state, we will naturally be engaged in the works that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Every moment of every day, with ever fiber of our being is “enough”. We must get to the point where “it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me”.

 

[guanophore]

wethirstlord.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=47:baltimorecatechism&Itemid=60&layout=default
“A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, prepared and enjoined by Order of the Third Council of Baltimore, was the de facto standard Catholic school text in the United States from 1885 to the late 1960s. It was the first such catechism written for Catholics in North America. The Baltimore Catechism remained in use in nearly all Catholic schools until the introduction of the current Cathechism of the Catholic Church was introduced after Vatican II. Both provide true and accurate teachings of the norms of the Catholic faith.”

Q. 154. What must we do to save our souls?
A. To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.
Q. 155. What does “worship” mean?
A. “Worship” means to give divine honor by acts such as the offering of prayer or sacrifice.
Q. 1376. Why does Christ judge men immediately after death?
A. Christ judges men immediately after death to reward or punish them according to their deeds.
Q. 1377. How may we daily prepare for our judgment?
A. We may daily prepare for our judgment by a good examination of conscience, in which we will discover our sins and learn to fear the punishment they deserve.
Q. 1378. What are the rewards or punishments appointed for men’s souls after the Particular Judgment?
A. The rewards or punishments appointed for men’s souls after the Particular Judgment are Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell.
Q. 1379. What is Hell?
A. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.
Q. 1381. What is Purgatory?
A. Purgatory is the state in which those suffer for a time who die guilty of venial sins, or without having satisfied for the punishment due to their sins.
Q. 1386. Since God loves the souls in Purgatory, why does He punish them?
A. Though God loves the souls in Purgatory, He punishes them because His holiness requires that nothing defiled may enter heaven and His justice requires that everyone be punished or rewarded according to what he deserves.
Q. 1395. What is Heaven?
A. Heaven is the state of everlasting life in which we see God face to face, are made like unto Him in glory, and enjoy eternal happiness.
Q. 1398. Are the rewards in heaven and the punishments in hell the same for all who enter into either of these states?
A. The rewards of heaven and the punishments in hell are not the same for all who enter into either of these states, because each one’s reward or punishment is in proportion to the amount of good or evil he has done in this world. But as heaven and hell are everlasting, each one will enjoy his reward or suffer his punishment forever.
Q. 1399. What words should we bear always in mind?
A. We should bear always in mind these words of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ: “What doth it profit a man if he gain the whole world and suffer the loss of his own soul, or what exchange shall a man give for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and then will He render to every man according to his works.”

Q. 1400. Name some of the more essential religious truths we must know and believe.
A. Some of the more essential religious truths we must know and believe are:

1. That there is but one God, and He will reward the good and punish the wicked.
2. That in God there are three Divine Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these Divine Persons are called the Blessed Trinity.
3. That Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, became man and died for our redemption.
4. That the grace of God is necessary for our salvation.
5. That the human soul is immortal.

The grace of God is mentioned once as if it were a very minor detail.

I can’t see anything here that says we can “work” our way to heaven.

You are right about the focus on our own actions, and the judgement, with very little focus on grace. I had the same experience. I was left with the impression that if I was good, I could get myself to heaven, and if I was bad, I would go to hell. I never understood grace until I fell in with some Baptists. I was angry at the Catholic Church for a long time.

I think, in retrospect, this type of catechesis makes some incorrect assumptions. It is directed toward baptized Catholics who are presumed to be in a state of grace.

 

[ron77nyc]

I can’t see anything here that says we can “work” our way to heaven.

“What must we do to save our souls?” strongly implies that the burden and responsibility of salvation is on us. It is not possible for us to save our own souls. All other religions are trying to save their own souls because they don’t have a savior. Here are some examples of that question from the bible. It has a whole different meaning.

Douay Rheims Acts16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. 29 Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. 30 And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

Luke 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, **what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” **

Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, **what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” **

 

[Nita]

“What must we do to save our souls?” strongly implies that the burden and responsibility of salvation is on us. It is not possible for us to save our own souls. All other religions are trying to save their own souls because they don’t have a savior. Here are some examples of that question from the bible. It has a whole different meaning.

Douay Rheims Acts16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. 29 Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. 30 And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

Luke 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, **what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” **

Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, **what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” **

I’m missing your point. The Scripture passages certainly show it is acceptable to pose the question in the manner put forward in the Catechism. The Scripture responses also show that we must “do” something if we are to receive this gift of salvation. I’m assuming you agree with the Scripture responses answering the question, but could you explain what part of the Catechism answer (A. “To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.”) you disagree with? What part don’t we have to do? Or are you saying we’ll be saved even if we don’t “worship God by faith, hope,…”.

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m missing your point. The Scripture passages certainly show it is acceptable to pose the question in the manner put forward in the Catechism. The Scripture responses also show that we must “do” something if we are to receive this gift of salvation. I’m assuming you agree with the Scripture responses answering the question, but could you explain what part of the Catechism answer (A. “To save our souls, we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart.”) you disagree with? What part don’t we have to do? Or are you saying we’ll be saved even if we don’t “worship God by faith, hope,…”.

It’s the right answer but the wrong question. We do not save our own souls. We don’t even do things to keep this free gift of salvation. God has provided the sacrifice. Our job is to get with the plan. It’s more like God is saying, “I gave you these new clothes (new nature) now wear them.”

 

[guanophore]

“What must we do to save our souls?” strongly implies that the burden and responsibility of salvation is on us. It is not possible for us to save our own souls.

This point is one of the primary distinctions between what the Apostles taught, and where the Reformers departed from it. It has to do with cooperation with grace. Calvin does not even really believe in free will, and those who have followed this “grace alone/faith alone” theology have lost the Apostolic teaching on the requirement of man’s response to God. In fact, Nothing less than all of our giving is expected. We are to reach the point where “it is no longer I who live, but Christ, who lives in us”. When people ask Jesus and Peter “what must I do to be saved”, they are clear that those that hear the word are to completely abandon themselves to Christ.

Here are some examples of that question from the bible. It has a whole different meaning.

Douay Rheims Acts16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying: Do thyself no harm, for we all are here. 29 Then calling for a light, he went in, and trembling, fell down at the feet of Paul and Silas. 30 And bringing them out, he said: Masters, what must I do, that I may be saved?

Different meanting than what? Do you imagine that baptism into Christ was not considered a whole devotion of one’s life?

Luke 18:18 A ruler questioned Him, saying, “Good Teacher, **what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” **

Matthew 19:16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, **what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” **

I think the answers to these questions are as instructive as the questions.

I will add another:

1 Cor 9:22-23
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Do either of us imagine that Paul believes he can “save some”, of himself? Yet, he has become a co-worker with Christ, laboring with every fiber of his being constantly to “save some”. This is why Catholics do not separate the work from the faith that produces it through grace. We don’t stop quoting at v. 9,but understand that v. 10 finds it’s foundation in v. 8-9.

 

[ron77nyc]

This point is one of the primary distinctions between what the Apostles taught, and where the Reformers departed from it. It has to do with cooperation with grace. Calvin does not even really believe in free will, and those who have followed this “grace alone/faith alone” theology have lost the Apostolic teaching on the requirement of man’s response to God. In fact, Nothing less than all of our giving is expected. We are to reach the point where “it is no longer I who live, but Christ, who lives in us”. When people ask Jesus and Peter “what must I do to be saved”, they are clear that those that hear the word are to completely abandon themselves to Christ.

Different meanting than what? Do you imagine that baptism into Christ was not considered a whole devotion of one’s life?

No one in the bible ever gives the impression that you save yourself. The Baltimore Catechism is the only place where I find it worded that way. And if it is a free gift then you can’t work to keep it. We pursue it.

Philipians3:12 Not that I have already obtained the prize, or am already perfected; but I pursue, if also I may get possession of it, seeing that also I have been taken possession of by Christ Jesus.

Saving yourself is different from obtaining, inheriting and possessing eternal life. Paul tells Timothy to “lay hold of eternal life.”

 

[Nita]

It’s the right answer but the wrong question. We do not save our own souls. We don’t even do things to keep this free gift of salvation. God has provided the sacrifice. Our job is to get with the plan. It’s more like God is saying, “I gave you these new clothes (new nature) now wear them.”

Jesus, St. Paul and St. Peter (cf Acts 2:37-38) didn’t take exception to the question or note in any way that they thought it was an improper question. Instead they just answered it.

Since however you believe their question is totally in error in what it implies, I assume you think Jesus and Paul erred in their response and should have said that their question was meaningless/unanswerable since their was nothing they could or should do in order to be saved. Or else they should just have responded with a simple “Nothing”. If I’m wrong, how do you think they should have replied to the question?

 

[guanophore]

It’s the right answer but the wrong question. We do not save our own souls. We don’t even do things to keep this free gift of salvation. God has provided the sacrifice. Our job is to get with the plan. It’s more like God is saying, “I gave you these new clothes (new nature) now wear them.”

I can see your point about it being “the wrong question”.That is, however, the most common human question. It may be “wrong” but it is formed according to our nature, which does not, of itself, recognize or understand grace. When they asked Jesus “what must we be doing, to be doing the works of God”, he did not criticize the question, which is a good one. I am sure His answer, though, was probably a mind bender for them.

You are correct about the sacrifice being provided, but you are wrong that there are not things we are to do. In the parable about the wedding garmet, Jesus was clear that those wanting to enter the feast must don the garment. The one that did not put his on got thrown out.
11 “But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; 12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matt 22:11-14

God provides the garment, but it is up to us to put it on. 1 Peter 5:5 “Clothe yourselves, all of you…”.

Scripture is full of references to what we must do to “keep” salvation.

James 1:20-21
21 Therefore put away all filthiness and rank growth of wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

Primarily, to receive with meekness. We must come as little children.

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience. Heb 4:11

It does require striving on our part.

2 Peter 1:5
“For this very reason** make every effort **to supplement your faith…”

Salvation is not a 'passive" event, as The Reformers believed. I understand that they wished to depart from the corruption they saw in the Church at the time, and had insight into salvaiton by grace. However, it is always wrong to depart from the Apostolic Teaching. This can only cause the gospel message to become warped.

 

[ron77nyc]

Jesus, St. Paul and St. Peter (cf Acts 2:37-38) didn’t take exception to the question or note in any way that they thought it was an improper question. Instead they just answered it.

Since however you believe their question is totally in error in what it implies, I assume you think Jesus and Paul erred in their response and should have said that their question was meaningless/unanswerable since their was nothing they could or should do in order to be saved. Or else they should just have responded with a simple “Nothing”. If I’m wrong, how do you think they should have replied to the question?

The question in the catechism - What must we do to save our souls? - is never asked by anyone in the bible. The answer - we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart. - is the right answer to the question. The question should be "What must I do to obtain, lay hold of or possess eternal life? We have to do something but we don’t save our souls.

 

[guanophore]

The question in the catechism - What must we do to save our souls? - is never asked by anyone in the bible.

How is that question any different than these?

Acts 16:30
“Men, what must I do to be saved?”

John 6:28-29
What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

Acts 2:37

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”

Human beings have an innate understanding that we are obligated to respond to God’s grace.

Acts 2:40-41
40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “**Save yourselves **from this crooked generation.”

Do we imagine, is using this languange, that the Apostle is really teaching that any of us can save ourselves?

The answer - we must worship God by faith, hope, and charity; that is, we must believe in Him, hope in Him, and love Him with all our heart. - is the right answer to the question. The question should be "What must I do to obtain, lay hold of or possess eternal life? We have to do something but we don’t save our souls.

For Catholics, there is no distinction between grasping hold of eternal life, and saving our souls. They have one and the same meaning for us.

One must also be mindful that the catechism is written to instruct the baptized. It is directed to those who are presumed to be already born again of water and Spirit.

 

[ron77nyc]

How is that question any different than these?

Acts 16:30
“Men, what must I do to be saved?”

John 6:28-29
What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"

Acts 2:37

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”

Human beings have an innate understanding that we are obligated to respond to God’s grace.

Acts 2:40-41
40 And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “**Save yourselves **from this crooked generation.”

Do we imagine, is using this languange, that the Apostle is really teaching that any of us can save ourselves?

For Catholics, there is no distinction between grasping hold of eternal life, and saving our souls. They have one and the same meaning for us.

One must also be mindful that the catechism is written to instruct the baptized. It is directed to those who are presumed to be already born again of water and Spirit.

I work with a lot of Catholic people. Today the boss bought lunch, a 6 ft. hero and veggie wraps because he’s going to another department. My friend told me, “That looks good but I can’t eat meat today.” Later on I asked him if he knew anything about salvation by faith. He said yes; he had been taught about it but it was so long ago and he didn’t really understand it. I asked him “how do you think you get to heaven.’ He said,” I don’t steal, I don’t lie, I don’t commit adultery. I believe that if you do good God will accept you.”