Ephesians 2:8-9

[NHInsider]

I work with a lot of Catholic people. Today the boss bought lunch, a 6 ft. hero and veggie wraps because he’s going to another department. My friend told me, “That looks good but I can’t eat meat today.” Later on I asked him if he knew anything about salvation by faith. He said yes; he had been taught about it but it was so long ago and he didn’t really understand it. I asked him “how do you think you get to heaven.’ He said,” I don’t steal, I don’t lie, I don’t commit adultery. I believe that if you do good God will accept you.”

And this is a genuine indictment - not of Catholic doctrine but of Catholic catechesis. We do tend to teach as though our people already understand that they are saved by grace and so this is about “living the Christian life.” Without getting “stuck” on babyfood, we do need to remind our baptized-as-infants Catholics that they are “saved by grace, not works, lest anyone should boast.”

 

[guanophore]

I work with a lot of Catholic people. Today the boss bought lunch, a 6 ft. hero and veggie wraps because he’s going to another department. My friend told me, “That looks good but I can’t eat meat today.” Later on I asked him if he knew anything about salvation by faith. He said yes; he had been taught about it but it was so long ago and he didn’t really understand it. I asked him “how do you think you get to heaven.’ He said,” I don’t steal, I don’t lie, I don’t commit adultery. I believe that if you do good God will accept you.”

There is no doubt that there are a great many poorly catechized Catholics in the world.

Your co-worker is correct, keeping the commandments will certainly fulfill Christ’s law of love. However, it is not possible to keep them unless one is saved by grace, through faith. Only then (if we move on to vs. 10) can we actually fulfill the works of righteousness that God has prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It is also true that, if we do good, God will accept us. What good works are these?

Mark 10:17-22

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have observed from my youth.” 21 And Jesus looking upon him loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing; go, sell what you have, and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 At that saying his countenance fell, and he went away sorrowful; for he had great possessions.

The “good work” that satisfies God is a totally selling out of oneself to God. When we are ready, willing, and able to give up everything and anything to follow Him, then we are walking in faith, by grace.

 

[Nita]

I work with a lot of Catholic people. Today the boss bought lunch, a 6 ft. hero and veggie wraps because he’s going to another department. My friend told me, “That looks good but I can’t eat meat today.” Later on I asked him if he knew anything about salvation by faith. He said yes; he had been taught about it but it was so long ago and he didn’t really understand it. I asked him “how do you think you get to heaven.’ He said,” I don’t steal, I don’t lie, I don’t commit adultery. I believe that if you do good God will accept you.”

Sounds good to me.

It might help us if you give us a very clear definition of what you mean by “faith”.
And another definition would help - how do you define “salvation”.
Maybe we’re using the same words and talking about different things.

Certainly you don’t think you can chuck obedience to God and His Church and still be saved from your sins. (So you’re clean and can enter heaven.) Good heavens, you wouldn’t be saved from your sins, you’d still be committing/living in them. And the wages of sin is death.

I sure hope you don’t try to persuade your boss it’s okay to be disobedient to the legitimate authority Jesus established for His Church on earth. Don’t be an Eve!!!

 

[ron77nyc]

Sounds good to me.

 

[Nita]

Nita;5003517:

When I say faith I mean belief in the resurrection of Jesus.

As I thought, we differ in our understanding of terms.
Faith is always more than just belief. (Eg. the devil believes Jesus is God and believes He has risen from the dead. He no doubt also believes/knows everything Scripture says is truth. The difference is he refuses to accept it - God as god over Him; God as supreme with the authority to rule and give commands that must be followed, etc.)

When I say faith, I mean belief in God; belief that Jesus is God AND acceptance of Him as my God. That means I accept His sovereignty over me - the necessity of being obedient to His commands. What Paul in Romans calls the “obedience of faith”. Obedience is a part of faith. Without the above, it’s only belief and not faith.

Salvation - to be free of the bondage of sin and the consequences of sin including eternal punishment.

That is my understanding also.

If you or I were able to completely abstain from sinning in this life by the grace of God we would still be sinners. In this life we will always be resisting sin.

The first sentence I disagree with. If we have confessed all our sins and have not committed any since, we are sinless at that point and remain so unless or until we commit another sin. Confessed sins are gone - “remembered no more”.

I agree that in this life we will always have to be resisting sin - but temptation (to sin) is not sin. Our disordered flesh and passions (concupiscence) is not sin. No matter how much it may tempt us, it is sin only when we freely choose to give in to it.

I agree that those who die completely sinless at the time of death are probably few.

My boss is not Catholic. My friend is the one who was abstaining from meat. Where did you get the idea that I would persuade someone to be disobedient?

Just misinterpreted your post. Thought the boss and your friend were one and the same.

From the way you presented the situation, it seemed like you thought your friend was off base if he thought obedience to the Ten Commandments and Church regulations (meat on Friday abstinence) was needed in order to get to heaven (salvation). I got the idea you didn’t consider his answer as meeting what you called “salvation by grace”.
Now I gave a thumbs up to your friends answer because it shows that he believes in God and believes in God’s authority over him - and if he’s trying to obey them it means he has accepted that authority.

 

[ron77nyc]

Now I gave a thumbs up to your friends answer because it shows that he believes in God and believes in God’s authority over him - and if he’s trying to obey them it means he has accepted that authority.

He does not go to mass and does not understand why people go to church. He says, “Maybe when I’m old I’ll start doing that stuff”, but he will abstain from eating meat during lent. He’s not the only one I know who does that. I’m not passing judgement on them. I’m just really confused about how this happens.

 

[guanophore]

When I say faith I mean belief in the resurrection of Jesus.

That doesn’t make any sense Ron. Scripture attests to the fact that even the demons believe (and shudder). Obviously,their faith does not save them.

Salvation - to be free of the bondage of sin and the consequences of sin including eternal punishment.

Then we can agree that we are not completely “free” (saved) until we enter heaven? Because as long as we are in the flesh, we continue to struggle with the consequences of sin.

If you or I were able to completely abstain from sinning in this life by the grace of God we would still be sinners.

No, Ron. A sinner is one who lives in sin. If we abstain from sin, we are saints.

 In this life we will always be resisting sin. When our corrupt flesh is dead and we receive our new bodies we will be sinless.

Good! Then I think we are in agreement that there are aspects of our salvation that have not yet been completed?

My boss is not Catholic. My friend is the one who was abstaining from meat. Where did you get the idea that I would persuade someone to be disobedient?

On the contrary, given your obvious theological wrestlings, the fact that you are obedient is extraordinary.

 

[ron77nyc]

That doesn’t make any sense Ron. Scripture attests to the fact that even the demons believe (and shudder). Obviously,their faith does not save them.

Faith gets you in the door. Of course when you are in you have to listen to the master.

Paul at one time had good deeds without faith. Before he met Jesus he was on the outside thinking he was inside.

Then we can agree that we are not completely “free” (saved) until we enter heaven? Because as long as we are in the flesh, we continue to struggle with the consequences of sin.

Amen brother

No, Ron. A sinner is one who lives in sin. If we abstain from sin, we are saints.

Are we saints until the next time we sin? An alcoholic who doesn’t drink is still an alcoholic.

Good! Then I think we are in agreement that there are aspects of our salvation that have not yet been completed?

Of course !

On the contrary, given your obvious theological wrestlings, the fact that you are obedient is extraordinary.

Thank you. I think that’s a compliment.

 

[Nita]

He does not go to mass and does not understand why people go to church. He says, “Maybe when I’m old I’ll start doing that stuff”, but he will abstain from eating meat during lent. He’s not the only one I know who does that. I’m not passing judgement on them. I’m just really confused about how this happens.

Whoops! I thought you were talking about a practicing Catholic.
Keep talking to him.

 

[guanophore]

Faith gets you in the door. Of course when you are in you have to listen to the master.

OIC. Yes. One of the reasons that I say faith is never “alone” is that it is always accompanied by obedience and the fruits that befit repentance.

Paul at one time had good deeds without faith. Before he met Jesus he was on the outside thinking he was inside.

Yes, I agree.

Are we saints until the next time we sin? An alcoholic who doesn’t drink is still an alcoholic.

I do follow your reasoning here, but such persons generally refer to themselves as “recovering”, even after a relapse.

The difference is that when we are baptized, we are transferred from the Kingdom of Darkness into the kingdom of light. We experience the “bath of regeneration” and there are many spiritual and permanent changes that occur. We bear the very stamp of his nature, and set apart from sin. The changes that happen at baptism are permanent, unlike the condition of the recovering alcoholic.

Thank you. I think that’s a compliment.

It was meant to be. Since the very first post of yours I read, I could discern considerable angst about the theological issues, In spite of this, you are determined to remain faithful to the Church, where most folks would just bail out. It speaks volumes about your character.