Ephesians 5, 21-32

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Yes --as I noted Jesus is a man. And yes he is God …he is true God and true man…and yes male.

See the Catechism quotes above. They expand on things.
So God is Man (male) therefore He has a gender.
 
Compendium issued by Pope Benedict XVI

The Transmission of Divine Revelation
  1. Why and in what way is divine revelation transmitted?
74

God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), that is, of Jesus Christ. For this reason, Christ must be proclaimed to all according to his own command, “Go forth and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19). And this is brought about by Apostolic Tradition.
  1. What is Apostolic Tradition?
75-79,
83,
96, 98

Apostolic Tradition is the transmission of the message of Christ, brought about from the very beginnings of Christianity by means of preaching, bearing witness, institutions, worship, and inspired writings. The apostles transmitted all they received from Christ and learned from the Holy Spirit to their successors, the bishops, and through them to all generations until the end of the world.
  1. In what ways does Apostolic Tradition occur?
76

Apostolic Tradition occurs in two ways: through the living transmission of the word of God (also simply called Tradition) and through Sacred Scripture which is the same proclamation of salvation in written form.
  1. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?
95

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.
  1. How is Sacred Scripture to be read?
109-119
137

Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted with the help of the Holy Spirit and under the guidance of the Magisterium of the Church according to three criteria: 1) it must be read with attention to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture; 2) it must be read within the living Tradition of the Church; 3) it must be read with attention to the analogy of faith, that is, the inner harmony which exists among the truths of the faith themselves.


  1. What role does Sacred Scripture play in the life of the Church?
131-133
141-142

Sacred Scripture gives support and vigor to the life of the Church. For the children of the Church, it is a confirmation of the faith, food for the soul and the fount of the spiritual life. Sacred Scripture is the soul of theology and of pastoral preaching. The Psalmist says that it is “a lamp to my feet and a light to my path” (Psalm 119:105). The Church, therefore, exhorts all to read Sacred Scripture frequently because “ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ” (Saint Jerome).

Read the whole here: I had to cut it to not make it too long…be sure to read it I had to cut out a bunch

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#God%20Comes%20to%20Meet%20Man
And you have just proved my point.
 
wives

not women.

Yes and regarding husbands too. (do not forget that the New Testament came forth from the Church – yes it is the inspired written Word of God --but God brought this about via the Church and has given the Church the authority to understand and teach…etc etc)

Are Christians to be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ? Yes.

Are wives to be subject to their husbands as to the Lord? Yes.

Is the husband (not “the man”) the head of the wife (not “the woman” as Christ is the head of the Church? Yes.

Is the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the Church giving himself up for her? Yes.

Is the husband to love his wife as his own body? Yes

Is the husband to love his wife as himself? Yes

Is the wife respect her husband? Yes

Is the husband to dominate his wife? no.

Is the wife to disrespect the husband? no.

Is the husband to become some dictator? no.

Is the wife to say – you must love me as yourself – so buy yourself that expensive diamond necklace…no…

Can people mistake or abuse the meaning of this passage? yes – it has happened and can happen.

Is there in all of this a mutual love and service as Christians and as spouses? Yes.

Are husband and wife different? yes

Are husbands and wives of equal Christian dignity? and indeed brother and sister? yes

Can there be exceptions in various ways --like for example a husband who is unfit to function as such…? yes of course. Just as there can be an exception to say being subject to your Bishop – like if he starts saying ok folks we are going to start a new Catholic way – we are going to burn the Bible and only follow XYand Z.

Can there be various incarnations of how this is played out? Yes.

Is this demeaning to a wife? No. Is this demeaning to the husband to have to become become in a sense as a slave to his wife or to have to suffer for her? (remember Jesus …to love the wife as Christ love the Church) --no.
 
wives

not women.

Yes and regarding husbands too. (do not forget that the New Testament came forth from the Church – yes it is the inspired written Word of God --but God brought this about via the Church and has given the Church the authority to understand and teach…etc etc)

Are Christians to be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ? Yes.

Are wives to be subject to their husbands as to the Lord? Yes.

Is the husband (not “the man”) the head of the wife (not “the woman” as Christ is the head of the Church? Yes.

Is the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the Church giving himself up for her? Yes.

Is the husband to love his wife as his own body? Yes

Is the husband to love his wife as himself? Yes

Is the wife respect her husband? Yes

Is the husband to dominate his wife? no.

Is the wife to disrespect the husband? no.

Is the husband to become some dictator? no.

Is the wife to say – you must love me as yourself – so buy yourself that expensive diamond necklace…no…

Can people mistake or abuse the meaning of this passage? yes – it has happened and can happen.

Is there in all of this a mutual love and service as Christians and as spouses? Yes.

Can there be exceptions in various ways --like for example a husband who is unfit to function as such…? yes of course. Just as there can be an exception to say being subject to your Bishop – like if he starts saying ok folks we are going to start a new Catholic way – we are going to burn the Bible and only follow XYand Z.

Can there be various incarnations of how this is played out? Yes.

Is this demeaning to a wife? No. Is this demeaning to the husband to have to become become in a sense as a slave to his wife or to have to suffer for her? (remember Jesus …to love the wife as Christ love the Church) --no.
Wives to husbands, women to men (as men are the authority in the church) mothers to teach daughters the ways a woman should act including how to be submissive as a wife before becoming a wife
 
Wives to husbands, women to men (as men are the authority in the church) mothers to teach daughters the ways a woman should act including how to be submissive as a wife before becoming a wife
Well – it is not “women to men”. It is members of the Church -Men and women- to the various persons given authority by Christ.

Yes the Bishops and the Priests are men. Sure. But that is not really the jist here.

But for example male children are to obey even --their mothers.

Woman teachers --teach both genders. Or heck in a business – the CEO may be a Christian woman --and the Christian male employees need to follow the directives given by her as CEO.

Mothers are to teach their family. As are Fathers. They are together the primary teachers of their children.

Men and women are equal in dignity (and in human nature and as Christians) but different and complimentary in their nature.
 
That’s a pretty tough stance. I really don’t think you would get too many people to sign on to that train of thought.

The Bible is a living organism of faith. As generations pass, we have grown in our understanding of Sacred Scripture. Since it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, it has merit in providing what we need for salvation for all time. Interpretation is reserved for those better suited to scripture study such as Scholars who can perform linguistic, cultural, historical, etc, criticisms.

The moral application is best left to the bishops (magesterium). Individual interpretation can be misleading and even alienating.
 
Well – it is not “women to men”. It is members of the Church -Men and women- to the various persons given authority by Christ.

Yes the Bishops and the Priests are men. Sure. But that is not really the jist here.

But for example male children are to obey even --their mothers.

Woman teachers --teach both genders. Or heck in a business – the CEO may be a Christian woman --and the Christian male employees need to follow the directives given by her as CEO.

Mothers are to teach their family. As are Fathers. They are together the primary teachers of their children.

Men and women are equal in dignity (and in human nature and as Christians) but different and complimentary in their nature.
Titus 2

You, however, must teach what is appropriate to sound doctrine. 2 Teach the older men to be temperate, worthy of respect, self-controlled, and sound in faith, in love and in endurance.

3 Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4 Then they can urge the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.

6 Similarly, encourage the young men to be self-controlled. 7 In everything set them an example by doing what is good. In your teaching show integrity, seriousness 8 and soundness of speech that cannot be condemned, so that those who oppose you may be ashamed because they have nothing bad to say about us.

9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them, 10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you

Enough said
 
I can’t imagine that the Magisterium, the Pope, or any other true follower of Jesus Christ would dare contradict Scripture with their Sacred Tradition. Traditions should never come before God Inspired Word. Although, I will concede that it can go hand in hand to complement it.

.
I think more time to understand what is meant by Apostolic Tradition and Tradition is needful here.

Sacred Scripture is part of Apostolic Tradition. Apostolic Tradition embraces both Scripture and what is often just called Tradition. Tradition is different from “traditions”

All three stand together – Sacred Scripture, Tradition and the Living Teaching office established by Christ.

Tradition is – HIS tradition – there is no contradiction between Tradition and Scripture.

What was suggested above is like saying “I can’t imagine that the Magisterium, the Pope, or any other true follower of Jesus Christ would dare contradict Sacred Tradition with their Sacred Scripture.”

Both would be not understanding here what is meant by Scripture, Tradition and the Teaching office of the Church established by Jesus Christ the Logos (Word of God).

 
I think more time to understand what is meant by Apostolic Tradition and Tradition is needful here.

Sacred Scripture is part of Apostolic Tradition. Apostolic Tradition embraces both Scripture and what is often just called Tradition. Tradition is different from “traditions”

All three stand together – Sacred Scripture, Tradition and the Living Teaching office established by Christ.

Tradition is – HIS tradition – there is no contradiction between Tradition and Scripture.

What was suggested above is like saying “I can’t imagine that the Magisterium, the Pope, or any other true follower of Jesus Christ would dare contradict Sacred Tradition with their Sacred Scripture.”

Both would be not understanding here what is meant by Scripture, Tradition and the Teaching office of the Church established by Jesus Christ the Logos (Word of God).
My point exactly. When I mention Scripture you tell me how the tradition, magisterium or the Pope contradict it.
 
That’s a pretty tough stance. I really don’t think you would get too many people to sign on to that train of thought.

The Bible is a living organism of faith. As generations pass, we have grown in our understanding of Sacred Scripture. Since it is inspired by the Holy Spirit, it has merit in providing what we need for salvation for all time. Interpretation is reserved for those better suited to scripture study such as Scholars who can perform linguistic, cultural, historical, etc, criticisms.

The moral application is best left to the bishops (magesterium). Individual interpretation can be misleading and even alienating.
So you believe because you are told to believe not because you read and understand the what they tell you is true.
 
Compendium:
  1. Why and in what way is divine revelation transmitted?
74

God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), that is, of Jesus Christ. For this reason, Christ must be proclaimed to all according to his own command, “Go forth and teach all nations” (Matthew 28:19). And this is brought about by Apostolic Tradition.
  1. What is Apostolic Tradition?
75-79,
83,
96, 98

Apostolic Tradition is the transmission of the message of Christ, brought about from the very beginnings of Christianity by means of preaching, bearing witness, institutions, worship, and inspired writings. The apostles transmitted all they received from Christ and learned from the Holy Spirit to their successors, the bishops, and through them to all generations until the end of the world.
  1. In what ways does Apostolic Tradition occur?
76

Apostolic Tradition occurs in two ways: through the living transmission of the word of God (also simply called Tradition) and through Sacred Scripture which is the same proclamation of salvation in written form.
  1. What is the relationship between Tradition and Sacred Scripture?
80-82
97

Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ. They flow out of the same divine well-spring and together make up one sacred deposit of faith from which the Church derives her certainty about revelation.
  1. To whom is the deposit of faith entrusted?
84, 91
94, 99

The Apostles entrusted the deposit of faith to the whole of the Church. Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith the people of God as a whole, assisted by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Magisterium of the Church, never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine revelation.
  1. To whom is given the task of authentically interpreting the deposit of faith?
85-90
100

The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the deposit of faith has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone, that is, to the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and to the bishops in communion with him. To this Magisterium, which in the service of the Word of God enjoys the certain charism of truth, belongs also the task of defining dogmas which are formulations of the truths contained in divine Revelation. This authority of the Magisterium also extends to those truths necessarily connected with Revelation.
  1. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?
95

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#God%20Comes%20to%20Meet%20Man
 
Compendium:
  1. In what ways does Apostolic Tradition occur?
76

Apostolic Tradition occurs in two ways: through the living transmission of the word of God (also simply called Tradition) and through Sacred Scripture which is the same proclamation of salvation in written form.
  1. What is the relationship between Tradition and Sacred Scripture?
80-82
97

Tradition and Sacred Scripture are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ. They flow out of the same divine well-spring and together make up one sacred deposit of faith from which the Church derives her certainty about revelation.
  1. To whom is the deposit of faith entrusted?
84, 91
94, 99

The Apostles entrusted the deposit of faith to the whole of the Church. Thanks to its supernatural sense of faith the people of God as a whole, assisted by the Holy Spirit and guided by the Magisterium of the Church, never ceases to welcome, to penetrate more deeply and to live more fully from the gift of divine revelation.
  1. To whom is given the task of authentically interpreting the deposit of faith?
85-90
100

The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the deposit of faith has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone, that is, to the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome, and to the bishops in communion with him. To this Magisterium, which in the service of the Word of God enjoys the certain charism of truth, belongs also the task of defining dogmas which are formulations of the truths contained in divine Revelation. This authority of the Magisterium also extends to those truths necessarily connected with Revelation.
  1. What is the relationship between Scripture, Tradition and the Magisterium?
95

Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium are so closely united with each other that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.

vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html#God%20Comes%20to%20Meet%20Man
Again you are copying and pasting from a book never once telling me how you get your understandings
 
My point exactly. When I mention Scripture you tell me how the tradition, magisterium or the Pope contradict it.
Abstracting from any particular person--

A persons understanding of any of the three can be not clear or somewhat off or even quite off.

Someone can quote a passage of Sacred Scripture and take it in a way that is contrary to the truth --contrary to the Church’s Teaching…etc.

(many heresies started that way – such is one reason Christ gave us the Office of Peter etc. )

Heck – some will quote some document of a Pope or Council etc etc and --well take it in the way they want to not in the way the Church takes it.
 
Again you are copying and pasting from a book never once telling me how you get your understandings
The quote is from the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Which is a great little text.

That is part of what they are for --to assist in understanding, professes and living the Faith.

Here is from Pope Benedict XVI’s Motu Proprio when he issued what I am quoting from:

"The Compendium, which I now present to the Universal Church, is a faithful and sure synthesis of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It contains, in concise form, all the essential and fundamental elements of the Church’s faith, thus constituting, as my Predecessor had wished, a kind of vademecum which allows believers and non-believers alike to behold the entire panorama of the Catholic faith.

In its structure, contents and language, the Compendium faithfully reflects the Catechism of the Catholic Church and will thus assist in making the Catechism more widely known and more deeply understood.

I entrust this Compendium above all to the entire Church and, in particular, to every Christian, in order that it may awaken in the Church of the third millennium renewed zeal for evangelization and education in the faith, which ought to characterize every community in the Church and every Christian believer, regardless of age or nationality.

But this Compendium, with its brevity, clarity and comprehensiveness, is directed to every human being, who, in a world of distractions and multifarious messages, desires to know the Way of Life, the Truth, entrusted by God to His Son’s Church."

On a personal note I have studied. In addition to being a very young convert myself (years ago) I have a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville.

(and also regarding quoting from a book – the name I use here is “Bookcat” …I love books…hee hee…well in particular that of Theology and the like)
 
The quote is from the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Which is a great little text.

That is part of what they are for --to assist in understanding, professes and living the Faith.

Here is from Pope Benedict XVI’s Motu Proprio when he issued what I am quoting from:

"The Compendium, which I now present to the Universal Church, is a faithful and sure synthesis of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It contains, in concise form, all the essential and fundamental elements of the Church’s faith, thus constituting, as my Predecessor had wished, a kind of vademecum which allows believers and non-believers alike to behold the entire panorama of the Catholic faith.

In its structure, contents and language, the Compendium faithfully reflects the Catechism of the Catholic Church and will thus assist in making the Catechism more widely known and more deeply understood.

I entrust this Compendium above all to the entire Church and, in particular, to every Christian, in order that it may awaken in the Church of the third millennium renewed zeal for evangelization and education in the faith, which ought to characterize every community in the Church and every Christian believer, regardless of age or nationality.

But this Compendium, with its brevity, clarity and comprehensiveness, is directed to every human being, who, in a world of distractions and multifarious messages, desires to know the Way of Life, the Truth, entrusted by God to His Son’s Church."

On a personal note I have studied. In addition to being a very young convert myself (years ago) I have a degree in Theology from Franciscan University of Steubenville.

(and also regarding quoting from a book – the name I use here is “Bookcat” …I love books…hee hee…well in particular that of Theology and the like)
So in being a convert you had to see something in your previous church that you didnt agree with and saw something in the Catholic Church that you beleived to be more in line with the truth yes? Or did you accept the church in blind obedience as some are known to do?
 
So in being a convert you had to see something in your previous church that you didnt agree with and saw something in the Catholic Church that you beleived to be more in line with the truth yes? Or did you accept the church in blind obedience as some are known to do?
Yes I discovered that the Catholic Church went all the way back to Christ – that he formed it. That the fullness is there. It was --as it is with most – a process of enlightenment. But I came to understand the nature of the Church – and in following Christ I entered into full communion. Once I came to understand the nature of the Church -yes I came to profess all that the Church teaches…

To help with an answer to the later – hoping into our TARDIS we head back to the early days – and listen in on a discussion between one person who is looking into entering the Church says to a Christian –

Artemeus: so do you accept what Christ said and who he is and what his Apostles tell you in blind obedience?

Paul the Christian: no I did so with* enlightened obedience* --and I was even more enlighted after my baptism and living with them. One has to know what one is doing in order to become one of us. But once one comes to know Christ and his teachings – one can come to believe in him and well yes one can enter into the “obedience of Faith” as Paul put it when he wrote to the Romans…and one comes to profess and live this new life. One can hand oneself over as it were. To know new life…indeed true life in Christ.

Artemeus: I see so it is not a blind obedience but one with eyes open and one that gives even more light.

Paul: exactly. And there are different kinds of things and teachings --I mean not everyone lives the same way and not everything is something one has to obey in the same way or as a matter of Faith. Different customs in different places. It is not like one is joining the Ceasars army. But at the same time it is far more involved than becoming a soldier --it involves your whole self – it is a dying and living anew.
 
I am so happy to have once again found God - but I DO have one question/concern on Ephesians 5:21-32. I am so happy I was not reading last week because I would have had a HUGE problem reading that one. How can the Church accept such a chauvinistic translation “The husband is head of his wife - so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything” As a 66 year old GUY, I find that actually borderline offensive.
Dear Tim Landry,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

First, dear friend, I can understand why that Pauline passage is so controversial and unpopular nowadays, but it is important to remember that we are now living in the aftermath of the emergence of secular radical feminism, which has been the occasion of so much erroneous thinking as regards men and women and their distinctive roles.

St. Paul states quite plainly: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head of the Church, his body, and is himself its Saviour. As the Church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands” (Eph. 5: 22-24). Now, dear friend, the teaching that “the husband is the head of the wife” is as equally valid as the next part of St. Paul’s sentence, namely that “Christ is the head of the Church” (v. 23). That is a very closely knit argument and both parts must be true for the analogy to be valid and make any sense. Moreover, one cannot selectively take what one deems acceptable in Sacred Scripture, as the freethinkers today are wont to do, whilst ignoring and rationalizing those parts which displease us or do not accord with warped radical feminist views on the role of women. That, dear friend, is to embrace an ‘a la carte’ Catholicism and to allow radical feminist ideology to take precedence over Sacred Scripture and the consistent teaching of the Church throughout the ages.

Whilst it is perfectly true, dear friend, that St. Paul shows (Gal. 3: 28) that women enjoy an equal status with men as regards redemption, he also teaches that our union in the Gospel does not obliterate the natural distinction between the sexes, which was established by the priority given to man in creation (see I Tim. 2: 13). Moreover, the immutable principle of male headship does make the man the ruling spouse in marriage - an arrangement not only established by creation but also endorsed in redemption. Hence, a Catholic wife must understand that eqaulity in the sphere of grace (Gal. 3: 28; I Pet. 3: 7) does not abrogate the God-given order for marriage. Needless to say, there is a common sense limit to the obedience that a wife is expected to render to her husband. It is manifestly obvious that wives are only subject to their husbands in what pertains to their legitimate authority as husbands. In other words, everything that is not contrary to God’s law or the teaching of Holy Mother Church.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
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