Ephesians 5:22....revisited

[LightBound]

Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.s
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her.

Okay, first we are commanded to be submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. That puts both spouses on equal footing.

Then, wives are commanded to submit to their husbands. That places the husband above the wife.

Then the husband is commanded to love his wife as much as Christ lived the Church, handing himself over to her. Doesn’t that put them back on equal footing? Just like the first verse from St Paul commanded?

 

[Dan_Daly]

Is the Church on equal footing with Christ?

 

[LightBound]

And are husband and wives whose marriages are true partnerships in mortal sin because what works for them with mutual submission isn’t what Paul really meant?

If they are both faithful Catholics but have never had a need to pull the “headship” card in the relationship, are they no longer considered faithful Catholics?

I recall a thread a while back where a happily married woman read that a truly biblical marriage involved her husband being the head and the poor lady was trying to figure out how to make her husband be the head of the family when they had both viewed marriage as a partnership with equal footing and it had worked for years for them.

 

[Dan_Daly]

And are husband and wives whose marriages are true partnerships in mortal sin because what works for them with mutual submission isn’t what Paul really meant?

If they are both faithful Catholics but have never had a need to pull the “headship” card in the relationship, are they no longer considered faithful Catholics?

I recall a thread a while back where a happily married woman read that a truly biblical marriage involved her husband being the head and the poor lady was trying to figure out how to make her husband be the head of the family when they had both viewed marriage as a partnership with equal footing and it had worked for years for them.

As I mentioned in my PM, definitions are key. Is marriage a partnership? I would say absolutely yes, but I do not believe partnership means each spouse’s role is identical.

Mortal sin requires:
-Grave matter
-Knowledge
-Consent

If people don’t know they are not living according to what the Church teaches, they’re actions are still wrong, but they are not culpable for mortal sin. It’s important to remember that we all have a duty to seek to know the faith and form our consciences though.

We must go by Church teaching. “what works for us” is clearly a standard that in fact does not work. Look at the push for state sanctioned sodomy, or the acceptance of divorce, contraception and fornication in our culture. All can be justified as “it’s what works for me”. So from a logical and theological point of view, that argument fails.

 

[Dan_Daly]

From the Catechism of the Council of Trent, which is a universal Catechism (one of two) and was formulated by a full council of the Church (the only such catechism)

Duties Of A Husband

It is the duty of the husband to treat his wife generously and honourably. It should not be forgotten that Eve was called by Adam his companion. The woman, he says, whom thou gavest me as a companion. Hence it was, according to the opinion of some of the holy Fathers, that she was formed not from the feet but from the side of man; as, on the other hand, she was not formed from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband.

The husband should also be constantly occupied in some honest pursuit with a view to provide necessaries for the support of his family and to avoid idleness, the root of almost every vice.

He is also to keep all his family in order, to correct their morals, and see that they faithfully discharge their duties.

Duties Of A Wife

On the other hand, the duties of a wife are thus summed up by the Prince of the Apostles: Let wives be subject to their husbands. that if any believe not the word, they may be won without the word by the conversation of the wives, considering your chaste conversation with fear. Let not their adorning be the outward plaiting of the hair, or the wearing of gold, or the putting on of apparel: but the hidden man of the heart in the incorruptibility of a quiet and meek spirit, which is rich in the sight of God. For after this manner heretofore the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling hint lord.

To train their children in the practice of virtue and to pay particular attention to their domestic concerns should also be especial objects of their attention. The wife should love to remain at home, unless compelled by necessity to go out; and she should never presume to leave home without her husband’s consent.

Again, and in this the conjugal union chiefly consists, let wives never forget that next to God they are to love their husbands, to esteem them above all others, yielding to them in all things not inconsistent with Christian piety, a willing and ready obedience.

 

[Dan_Daly]

From the Encyclical Arcanum by Pope Leo XIII:

1. Secondly, the mutual duties of husband and wife have been defined, and their several rights accurately established. They are bound, namely, to have such feelings for one another as to cherish always very great mutual love, to be ever faithful to their marriage vow, and to give one another an unfailing and unselfish help. The husband is the chief of the family and the head of the wife. The woman, because she is flesh of his flesh, and bone of his bone, must be subject to her husband and obey him; not, indeed, as a servant, but as a companion, so that her obedience shall be wanting in neither honor nor dignity. Since the husband represents Christ, and since the wife represents the Church, let there always be, both in him who commands and in her who obeys, a heaven-born love guiding both in their respective duties. For “the husband is the head of the wife; as Christ is the head of the Church. . . Therefore, as the Church is subject to Christ, so also let wives be to their husbands in all things.”(18)

 

[Dan_Daly]

From the encyclical Casti Connubii by Pope Pius XI:

1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]

1. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

1. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact .

 

[Dan_Daly]

In short, those who reject the headship of the husband because they reject male tyranny reject what the Church doesn’t teach and never has.

At the same time, those who insist there is no head of the family deny what the Church does teach.

Pax Christi

 

[severus68]

And are husband and wives whose marriages are true partnerships in mortal sin because what works for them with mutual submission isn’t what Paul really meant?

If they are both faithful Catholics but have never had a need to pull the “headship” card in the relationship, are they no longer considered faithful Catholics?

I recall a thread a while back where a happily married woman read that a truly biblical marriage involved her husband being the head and the poor lady was trying to figure out how to make her husband be the head of the family when they had both viewed marriage as a partnership with equal footing and it had worked for years for them.

Christ taught by example the equality of women. JPII said it well in his Mulieris Dignitatem.
I quote a portion:

"The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel. We find various passages in which the apostolic writings express this innovation, even though they also communicate what is “old”: what is rooted in the religious tradition of Israel, in its way of understanding and explaining the sacred texts, as for example the second chapter of the Book of Genesis.49

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?"

It is beautiful and profound.

 

[severus68]

In short, those who reject the headship of the husband because they reject male tyranny reject what the Church doesn’t teach and never has.

At the same time, those who insist there is no head of the family deny what the Church does teach.

Pax Christi

I disagree Dan as I have always disagreed with you on this.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I disagree Dan as I have always disagreed with you on this.

But my arguments are not based on my beliefs. They are based upon the teachings of the Church.

“Mutual submission” can be true or not depending on what one means. If “submission” means sacrifice, then there is most definitely mutual submission in a marriage. However, if “submission” means obedience to authority then there is not.

Do you find some other message in the passages I quoted, or do you disagree with the message?

Pax Christi

 

[Dan_Daly]

Read carefully, the passage of Bl. John Paul II doesn’t contradict Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XI, or the Catechsim of Trent, or Sacred Scripture. He emphasizes a different aspect of what the Church teaches, as it has done from time to time through history. However, a change in emphasis does not eliminate the aspects of teaching that are not currently being spoken or written about.

Nowhere does John Paul II say that a husband is not the head of his wife or the family.

Pax Christi

 

[Philotheatoo]

Thank you, Severus68, JP The Great was gifted with so much insight to marital love.

 

[severus68]

Thank you, Severus68, JP The Great was gifted with so much insight to marital love.

I agree and he wrote so beautifully.

 

[severus68]

Read carefully, the passage of Bl. John Paul II doesn’t contradict Pope Leo XIII, Pope Pius XI, or the Catechsim of Trent, or Sacred Scripture. He emphasizes a different aspect of what the Church teaches, as it has done from time to time through history. However, a change in emphasis does not eliminate the aspects of teaching that are not currently being spoken or written about.

Nowhere does John Paul II say that a husband is not the head of his wife or the family.

Pax Christi

JPII traces the history of the treatment of women refering specifically to the Bible.

Again I question your referring to the Cathechism of the Council of Trent and not to our current 1992 Cathechism.

St Paul did say that with Christ men and womenn are equal. What did Christ say and do as depicted in the Bible evidences that Christ said the husband is the head of the family. The Holy Family lived in very different times. It would have been very difficult for a woman to travel long distances and Jewish culture treated women rather as lesser beings. Thus even the apostles were shocked at seeing Christ speaking to a ‘mere’ woman.

 

[Philotheatoo]

As well, I believe JP The Great understood Christ’s lesson to both men and women alike when pointing out ‘mere women’ in His daily living.

 

[LightBound]

JPII traces the history of the treatment of women refering specifically to the Bible.

Again I question your referring to the Cathechism of the Council of Trent and not to our current 1992 Cathechism.

St Paul did say that with Christ men and womenn are equal. What did Christ say and do as depicted in the Bible evidences that Christ said the husband is the head of the family. The Holy Family lived in very different times. It would have been very difficult for a woman to travel long distances and Jewish culture treated women rather as lesser beings. Thus even the apostles were shocked at seeing Christ speaking to a ‘mere’ woman.

Exactly!

 

[bmullins]

Ephesians 5 22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

This is a very unpopular verse. Mostly because it has been used in the past to make women subservient to their husband, with only he allowed to make decisions. That was not the intent of this passage at all. I will get to that later. First I want to talk bout how the husband is supposed to act.

Ephesians 25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Take a moment and let that sink in. There are a few characteristics that we can look at immediately about how we are to treat our wives. Mainly, we can look at how Christ lived his life for the church. Christ came into this world with one goal, to redeem his people to God. To bring his church into himself. We are after all the body of Christ. Christ LIVED literally for the church. He gave his life, his precious blood, for us. He suffered and died, just for the church.

Well husbands, we’ve got some serious shoes to fill, don’t we. We are to love our wife, even when she doesn’t deserve it! Not just when she loves us back, but period! Christ didn’t come down for the saints, he came for the sinners! The people who turned their back on him! We have to love our wives, even when we don’t particularly like her! I believe every couple has that moment as well. The moment when they are definitely not happy with their spouse. Be it when someone spent a great deal of money, without even consulting the other. Or someone hid something from the other. That doesn’t excuse us! We still have to love her!

So what does the first verse tell us then? The one about wives submitting to their husbands? Well it doesn’t seem to make sense if you think of marriage as a union, in which you just dissolve it when you don’t agree anymore. It’s not! Marriage is not something that we just leave when we have a disagreement. Someone has to have the deciding vote. Many people will tell you it’s just the man, but it’s not. It’s God! The man should be approaching God with the problem and saying Father, help me to solve this in your will! Then he should be going to his wife, and saying “You mean more than my own life, what is your opinion in this matter?” Then out of love and trust in the Lord, he should decide. Even if the two members do not agree, they should abide by that decision. Because it was approached with ultimate love for one another, and love for God.

Women love your husbands! Respect them! Help edify them, lord knows we men need our wives support. Men love your wives, more than yourself. No man who loves his wife more than his own life will hold it over her head that he is put in charge of the final vote. He would instead cast that final vote in love for her! Or even step aside and say I love you so much, that we are going to do what you want to to do, even if it’s not what I want to do, as long as it’s God’s will.

Remember Christ came as a servant, he served the church even though he was it’s King. You are to be your wives servant, even if you are the head. That’s what it means to be spiritually the head, that you have went above your own wants and needs and are looking for hers. Because she is being obedient to God by submitting to you, you must be obedient to God and submit to her!

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

 

[severus68]

Is the Church on equal footing with Christ?

Are men/husbands Christ?

 

[LightBound]

Ephesians 5 22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

This is a very unpopular verse. Mostly because it has been used in the past to make women subservient to their husband, with only he allowed to make decisions. That was not the intent of this passage at all. I will get to that later. First I want to talk bout how the husband is supposed to act.

Ephesians 25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Take a moment and let that sink in. There are a few characteristics that we can look at immediately about how we are to treat our wives. Mainly, we can look at how Christ lived his life for the church. Christ came into this world with one goal, to redeem his people to God. To bring his church into himself. We are after all the body of Christ. Christ LIVED literally for the church. He gave his life, his precious blood, for us. He suffered and died, just for the church.

Well husbands, we’ve got some serious shoes to fill, don’t we. We are to love our wife, even when she doesn’t deserve it! Not just when she loves us back, but period! Christ didn’t come down for the saints, he came for the sinners! The people who turned their back on him! We have to love our wives, even when we don’t particularly like her! I believe every couple has that moment as well. The moment when they are definitely not happy with their spouse. Be it when someone spent a great deal of money, without even consulting the other. Or someone hid something from the other. That doesn’t excuse us! We still have to love her!

So what does the first verse tell us then? The one about wives submitting to their husbands? Well it doesn’t seem to make sense if you think of marriage as a union, in which you just dissolve it when you don’t agree anymore. It’s not! Marriage is not something that we just leave when we have a disagreement. Someone has to have the deciding vote. Many people will tell you it’s just the man, but it’s not. It’s God! The man should be approaching God with the problem and saying Father, help me to solve this in your will! Then he should be going to his wife, and saying “You mean more than my own life, what is your opinion in this matter?” Then out of love and trust in the Lord, he should decide. Even if the two members do not agree, they should abide by that decision. Because it was approached with ultimate love for one another, and love for God.

Women love your husbands! Respect them! Help edify them, lord knows we men need our wives support. Men love your wives, more than yourself. No man who loves his wife more than his own life will hold it over her head that he is put in charge of the final vote. He would instead cast that final vote in love for her! Or even step aside and say I love you so much, that we are going to do what you want to to do, even if it’s not what I want to do, as long as it’s God’s will.

Remember Christ came as a servant, he served the church even though he was it’s King. You are to be your wives servant, even if you are the head. That’s what it means to be spiritually the head, that you have went above your own wants and needs and are looking for hers. Because she is being obedient to God by submitting to you, you must be obedient to God and submit to her!

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

That’s what I was trying to get at!! Last paragraph sums it up beautifully without detracting from the man’s role or making the women out to be a imbecilic doormat that needs her husband’s permission to walk across the room or go to the market.