Ephesians 5:22....revisited

[RubyT]

Ephesians 5 22-24 Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

This is a very unpopular verse. Mostly because it has been used in the past to make women subservient to their husband, with only he allowed to make decisions. That was not the intent of this passage at all. I will get to that later. First I want to talk bout how the husband is supposed to act.

Ephesians 25-32 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.

Take a moment and let that sink in. There are a few characteristics that we can look at immediately about how we are to treat our wives. Mainly, we can look at how Christ lived his life for the church. Christ came into this world with one goal, to redeem his people to God. To bring his church into himself. We are after all the body of Christ. Christ LIVED literally for the church. He gave his life, his precious blood, for us. He suffered and died, just for the church.

Well husbands, we’ve got some serious shoes to fill, don’t we. We are to love our wife, even when she doesn’t deserve it! Not just when she loves us back, but period! Christ didn’t come down for the saints, he came for the sinners! The people who turned their back on him! We have to love our wives, even when we don’t particularly like her! I believe every couple has that moment as well. The moment when they are definitely not happy with their spouse. Be it when someone spent a great deal of money, without even consulting the other. Or someone hid something from the other. That doesn’t excuse us! We still have to love her!

So what does the first verse tell us then? The one about wives submitting to their husbands? Well it doesn’t seem to make sense if you think of marriage as a union, in which you just dissolve it when you don’t agree anymore. It’s not! Marriage is not something that we just leave when we have a disagreement. Someone has to have the deciding vote. Many people will tell you it’s just the man, but it’s not. It’s God! The man should be approaching God with the problem and saying Father, help me to solve this in your will! Then he should be going to his wife, and saying “You mean more than my own life, what is your opinion in this matter?” Then out of love and trust in the Lord, he should decide. Even if the two members do not agree, they should abide by that decision. Because it was approached with ultimate love for one another, and love for God.

Women love your husbands! Respect them! Help edify them, lord knows we men need our wives support. Men love your wives, more than yourself. No man who loves his wife more than his own life will hold it over her head that he is put in charge of the final vote. He would instead cast that final vote in love for her! Or even step aside and say I love you so much, that we are going to do what you want to to do, even if it’s not what I want to do, as long as it’s God’s will.

Remember Christ came as a servant, he served the church even though he was it’s King. You are to be your wives servant, even if you are the head. That’s what it means to be spiritually the head, that you have went above your own wants and needs and are looking for hers. Because she is being obedient to God by submitting to you, you must be obedient to God and submit to her!

Ephesians 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Well said my Brother/Sister :clapping:

 

[severus68]

As well, I believe JP The Great understood Christ’s lesson to both men and women alike when pointing out ‘mere women’ in His daily living.

Yes he did. Something to think about - if we treat women as being any lesser than men , than we ourselves are diminished.

 

[Walking_Home]

Christ taught by example the equality of women. JPII said it well in his Mulieris Dignitatem.
I quote a portion:

"The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel. We find various passages in which the apostolic writings express this innovation, even though they also communicate what is “old”: what is rooted in the religious tradition of Israel, in its way of understanding and explaining the sacred texts, as for example the second chapter of the Book of Genesis.49

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?"

It is beautiful and profound.

---

Yes —:clapping:

 

[severus68]

---

Yes —:clapping:

JPII went through the historical treatment of women as being less than men and the Bible verses used to justifythat. In referring to the verses the subject of this thread he said " The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21)."

Both husbands and wives should want to give up their lives for each other, literally and figuratively. Both husband and wife should decide together on important issues with God’s guidance. I have read on some threads about mutual agreements on division of labour, responsibility and decision making in marriages.

 

[kbachler]

Be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ.
Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord.
For the husband is head of his wife just as Christ is head of the church, he himself the savior of the body.s
As the church is subordinate to Christ, so wives should be subordinate to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her.

Okay, first we are commanded to be submit to each other out of reverence for Christ. That puts both spouses on equal footing.

Then, wives are commanded to submit to their husbands. That places the husband above the wife.

Then the husband is commanded to love his wife as much as Christ lived the Church, handing himself over to her. Doesn’t that put them back on equal footing? Just like the first verse from St Paul commanded?

The footing level is equivalent; but that doesn’t mean that the footing is the same or that it isn’t dynamic. An equal level is not necessarily a static level.

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

In ephesians 5:1-21 Could it be the author is speaking to “everyone”, the christian community.

Start around
14 Therefore it is said, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.” 15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16* making the most of the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, 19* addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20 always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. 21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

The “one another” in verse 21 could be referring to the same “one another” in verse 19.

BREAK

Now address the wives,
22* Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31* “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Just a thought. Since everywhere else scripture (old and new) it consistantly acknowleges/teaches the husband as the “Head” of the family.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

On another thread Dan made the comment that the man gets to single-handedly decide things like what city the family lives in. I would really like to hear a loving and honorable justification for that example, because really it just seems like he is looking for an excuse to pull rank over his wife. No where in any of this has he talked about how a loving husband takes what his wife wants in to serious consideration and makes sacrifices for her happiness.

 

[chevalier]

Christ taught by example the equality of women. JPII said it well in his Mulieris Dignitatem.
I quote a portion:

"The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: “Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife” (5:22-23). The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the “head” of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give “himself up for her” (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the “subjection” is not one-sided but mutual.

In relation to the “old” this is evidently something “new”: it is an innovation of the Gospel. We find various passages in which the apostolic writings express this innovation, even though they also communicate what is “old”: what is rooted in the religious tradition of Israel, in its way of understanding and explaining the sacred texts, as for example the second chapter of the Book of Genesis.49

The apostolic letters are addressed to people living in an environment marked by that same traditional way of thinking and acting. The “innovation” of Christ is a fact: it constitutes the unambiguous content of the evangelical message and is the result of the Redemption. However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?"

It is beautiful and profound.

I was about to quote that too. And I doubt things like, “the wife should prefer to stay home unless compelled by a necessity to go out,” (I’m not quoting verbatim), can be interpreted as binding dogma (“de fide”). Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

On another thread Dan made the comment that the man gets to single-handedly decide things like what city the family lives in. I would really like to hear a loving and honorable justification for that example, because really it just seems like he is looking for an excuse to pull rank over his wife. No where in any of this has he talked about how a loving husband takes what his wife wants in to serious consideration and makes sacrifices for her happiness.

Even in the light of the Trident passage, he can’t. He can override his wife but he can’t be doing whatever he wants, he needs to be doing what’s good for the family. She is a companion and not a servant, and he has a duty to treat her honourably etc. So yes, he can ultimately make the decision she disagrees with (as opposed to her making the decision and his complying) but he cannot do it in the form a decree prounounced because he sees it fit and that is his fancy.

In military situations you can have two soldiers of an equal rank on a mission together. Somebody actually still has to be leading (although in informal situations this will be omitted if they can be presumed to get along), and will be able to give binding orders but can’t have somebody of his own rank (just maybe less seniority or less situational authority) play gopher for him.

Besides, if he’s being authoritarian, he may be sinning (committing a moral infraction) despite the obligation of his wife to comply. And for that sin he may be taken to account. Unfortunately, neither wives nor husbands are perfect. If both were perfect, they wouldn’t notice the problem of obedience or subjection because they would basically want the same.

 

[chevalier]

In ephesians 5:1-21 Could it be the author is speaking to “everyone”, the christian community.

Start around
14 Therefore it is said, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.” 15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16* making the most of the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, 19* addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20 always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. 21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

The “one another” in verse 21 could be referring to the same “one another” in verse 19.

BREAK

Now address the wives,
22* Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31* “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Just a thought. Since everywhere else scripture (old and new) it consistantly acknowleges/teaches the husband as the “Head” of the family.

It may be that the mutual subjection is binding on all Christians (“I remain your servant” was sometimes signed under actual orders from one’s superiors), not excluding spouses from it.

 

[Walking_Home]

JPII went through the historical treatment of women as being less than men and the Bible verses used to justifythat. In referring to the verses the subject of this thread he said " The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a “mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ” (cf. Eph 5:21)."

Both husbands and wives should want to give up their lives for each other, literally and figuratively. Both husband and wife should decide together on important issues with God’s guidance. I have read on some threads about mutual agreements on division of labour, responsibility and decision making in marriages.

---

Again – Yes. And as you quoted earlier:

However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, **and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs. This is a call which from that time onwards, does not cease to challenge succeeding generations; it is a call which people have to accept ever anew. **Saint Paul not only wrote: “In Christ Jesus… there is no more man or woman”, but also wrote: “There is no more slave or freeman”. Yet how many generations were needed for such a principle to be realized in the history of humanity through the abolition of slavery! And what is one to say of the many forms of slavery to which individuals and peoples are subjected, which have not yet disappeared from history?

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

It may be that the mutual subjection is binding on all Christians (“I remain your servant” was sometimes signed under actual orders from one’s superiors), not excluding spouses from it.

I like that,
I think some folks mis-understand “subjection”

In my Navy days I was an enlisted man. Our CO always signed notes/informal letters to the crew “In your Service” Capt. so & so. He and every member of the crew understood our station (roles) he was the “Head”, we would salute him (or any officer) but he led by example. He gave a very good example of what I think the scripture is saying. As enlisted men, we were not any less “Men”. As NCOs we had authority over those in our charge, we could also provide (name removed by moderator)ut to the Skipper. Each ship had a “Command Master Chief” (CMC - highest ranking enlisted man) a wise skipper ALWAYS took the counsel of his CMC. But in the end, the CO made the final decision.

It’s all about God’s order. that’s the way it is. It’s up to men NOT TO ABUSE that role.

 

[severus68]

On another thread Dan made the comment that the man gets to single-handedly decide things like what city the family lives in. I would really like to hear a loving and honorable justification for that example, because really it just seems like he is looking for an excuse to pull rank over his wife. No where in any of this has he talked about how a loving husband takes what his wife wants in to serious consideration and makes sacrifices for her happiness.

Dan Daly will tell you himself about his views which include:

1. A woman remains under the authority of her father until she leaves to be under the authority of her husband;
2. Higher education is not necessary especially for women.

Dan’s views are not necessarily the views of even those who have supported the position that the husband is the head of the family.

 

[severus68]

In ephesians 5:1-21 Could it be the author is speaking to “everyone”, the christian community.

Start around
14 Therefore it is said, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.” 15 Look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise, 16* making the most of the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. 18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit, 19* addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with all your heart, 20 always and for everything giving thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. 21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ.

The “one another” in verse 21 could be referring to the same “one another” in verse 19.

BREAK

Now address the wives,
22* Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31* “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church; 33 however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Just a thought. Since everywhere else scripture (old and new) it consistantly acknowleges/teaches the husband as the “Head” of the family.

Paul also said that under Christ men and women are equal.

 

[ChiRho]

Paul also said that under Christ men and women are equal.

you apparently don’t understand the difference between equality of dignity and equality of role.

 

[severus68]

I was about to quote that too. And I doubt things like, “the wife should prefer to stay home unless compelled by a necessity to go out,” (I’m not quoting verbatim), can be interpreted as binding dogma (“de fide”). Someone correct me if I’m wrong.

Even in the light of the Trident passage, he can’t. He can override his wife but he can’t be doing whatever he wants, he needs to be doing what’s good for the family. She is a companion and not a servant, and he has a duty to treat her honourably etc. So yes, he can ultimately make the decision she disagrees with (as opposed to her making the decision and his complying) but he cannot do it in the form a decree prounounced because he sees it fit and that is his fancy.

In military situations you can have two soldiers of an equal rank on a mission together. Somebody actually still has to be leading (although in informal situations this will be omitted if they can be presumed to get along), and will be able to give binding orders but can’t have somebody of his own rank (just maybe less seniority or less situational authority) play gopher for him.

Besides, if he’s being authoritarian, he may be sinning (committing a moral infraction) despite the obligation of his wife to comply. And for that sin he may be taken to account. Unfortunately, neither wives nor husbands are perfect. If both were perfect, they wouldn’t notice the problem of obedience or subjection because they would basically want the same.

With respect, the the military situation is not an apt analogy. Two privates would not be sent on a mission alone. At least a sargent ( can’t spell to save my life) will be along. If the two privates get seperated from their superior they would probably discuss and agree on a stratergy together. If one is better at tracking, they may both agree for him to lead the way.

The current 1992 Cathechism does not say that the husband is the head and the wife is to follow, our marriage vows do not include ‘obey’ for the wife. Over the years, we have developed a better understanding of God’s truth and have to change our ;culture’ aout women. The fact that most women are physically weaker, are closer to their emotions does not mean they need to have an authority over in the home who is their l head who will make the ultimate decisions.

If a woman wants a marriage like the one you say is her perogative. It is not the marriage Christ said it must be. If the greatest commandment of love is followed, we would not want to be heads of our wives.

 

[severus68]

you apparently don’t understand the difference between equality of dignity and equality of role.

You apparently do not understand a lot and know just to be belligerent.

 

[ChiRho]

You apparently do not understand a lot and know just to be belligerent.

I know enough to distinguish between equality of dignity and equality of role – want to give it a stab, Severus? It won’t hurt you I promise. Or do you think equality of dignity = equality of role?

 

[Walking_Home]

severus68:

Paul also said that under Christ men and women are equal.

you apparently don’t understand the difference between equality of dignity and equality of role.

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If this is an indicator of how you will interact with your future wife – I pity her.

 

[ChiRho]

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If this is an indicator of how you will interact with your future wife – I pity her.

I asked her and she said “Was that all you posted? Because that’s not even offensive to anyone…or at least shouldn’t be”

We’re both very happy together

 

[CroCatholic]

Just a humble, uneducated, non-theologian here… I haven’t read all the posts so forgive me if I’m repeating a point of view all ready presented. The way I view this: Stephen Harper is our prime minister (Yes, your friendly neighbour to the north) but he makes no decisions on his own. He consults and discusses and takes into consideration points brought forth from the cabinet. And the important decisions are always voted on. We should view marriage like a government… Though the husband may be the head of the household, he should always consult with his wife and take her feelings and opinions into careful consideration before making the important decisions. A good husband would afford his wife the opportunity to be heard and a good wife will be submissive to her husband (within reason…excluding abuse and such). Your MOST IMPORTANT goal in marriage is to make YOUR SPOUSE happy. And a good spouse should recognize if what makes them happy, makes their spouse miserable, some sacrifice may be in order. It’s all give and take, whether you’re the head or the backbone of the marriage!

just my two cents