Ephesians 5:22....revisited

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Not only different roles, but different areas of authority. And some of the most important, eg education issues with kids, are often in the domain of the wife. That is true love of a wife. A wife should be given areas of authority AND a husband should agree to abide by those decisions. Likewise, areas of authority should be reserved for the husband, and likewise the wife abides by those decisions. Christ did that for His church, and we were told explicitly to mirror Christ’s love of church in our we love our wives.

See, in the functioning Catholic marriages I know, there are no areas of authority that are the sole purview of just one spouse. Children, employment, money, health care, retirement planning, extended family, leisure time, all are are discussed and decided together. And the discussions keep on until an agreement is reached. There’s no “Well, we’ve reached an impasse, so guess what - I have the final say.”

When that happens, the person who gets that “final say” runs the risk of only giving lip service to listening and negotiating. Discussions oftentimes are held only so the spouse without power is placated to come degree. The marriage isn’t about a union of two adults, and at its worst it becomes some kind of twisted parent/child arrangement.

But if what you’ve described works for you, fine. But I know first hand this is not the way in every Catholic marriage.

Luna

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

It doesn’t say that…anywhere.

This is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you so much for your help! :tiphat:

Luna

 

[CroCatholic]

It seems to me you have problems being courteous and dealing with those who disagree with you. What you think and say about this issue is not what the Church says or what Christ taught.

I’m sorry you think I’m not being courteous. This was not my intention at all. I’m simply expressing some observances… Actually, my husband and I have put a great deal of thought, prayer and research into what we think our marriage should be. I have full confidence that we are doing our best to live out our marriage as God intended it to be. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that one can be submissive to the one she loves without being a slave, serf, employee or any other number of derogatory labels you may conjure up to slap onto me and other women like me. You’re idea of marriage is an equal partnership where each spouse is equally important, this is exactly right! Marriage can’t exist without the man or the woman. Their roles in the context of the marriage will never and can never be the same. Men can’t nurture a growing baby in the womb, they can’t nurse that same child and will never experience the same bond that mother and baby experience. Does that make the mother/child relationship more important than the father/child relationship? Or does it just make it (equal) but different? Each spouse has an equally important role to play in the marriage, those roles are different!

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

I don’t know what to say. All I can say about this conversation is that I find it morally offensive to my conscience and cannot condone any human relationship in which there is a “slave” and a “master.”

I don’t care how anyone interprets the words of St. Paul. St. Paul could come here in person and tell me to commit a worldly crime and I wouldn’t do it, so I don’t intend to start treating my wife as a slave even if that’s what he really thought you should do.

You’ve given me hope, Veritas, that I am indeed not losing my grip on reality. At least not yet. You are my hero today.

Luna

 

[CroCatholic]

This is exactly what I needed to know. Thank you so much for your help! :tiphat:

Luna

I still don’t understand where you are coming up with the idea that man makes all the decision on his own??? Unless I’ve missed a post, I’ve yet to see anyone state that women are doormats or donkeys to be trampled on or led around by their husbands?

 

[Walking_Home]

See, in the functioning Catholic marriages I know, there are no areas of authority that are the sole purview of just one spouse. Children, employment, money, health care, retirement planning, extended family, leisure time, all are are discussed and decided together. And the discussions keep on until an agreement is reached. There’s no “Well, we’ve reached an impasse, so guess what - I have the final say.”

When that happens, the person who gets that “final say” runs the risk of only giving lip service to listening and negotiating. Discussions oftentimes are held only so the spouse without power is placated to come degree. The marriage isn’t about a union of two adults, and at its worst it becomes some kind of twisted parent/child arrangement.

But if what you’ve described works for you, fine. But I know first hand this is not the way in every Catholic marriage.

Luna

---

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

If the Council of Trent, Leo XIII and Pius XI can be dismissed or ignored simply because they are too old to be relevant for our modern times…how long will it be before Humane Vitae, the 2nd Vatican Council, and John Paul II are too old? Who decides, or can each person decide for themselves?

Pax Christi and God bless

I don’t know. It’s a good question. That said, St. Paul also wrote, “Slaves, obey your masters” in the very same book… in fact, quite near to that passage. I realize that there is a context in that passage, but so too is there context to the call for submission in marriage. I know you don’t endorse slavery, but how are you going to throw that out but keep the part about marriage?

And, in any event, your interpretation of the passage, while reasonable, is not the only interpretation.

 

[Dan_Daly]

The problem of biblical interpretation is one of the many great reasons to be Catholic. It’s not up to me to hash out what Paul (and the Holy Ghost, let us not forget) meant by slaves and masters. My argument has not been based on my personal theories, it has been based on the teachings of the Church.

It is not the only interpretation, but it is the Catholic one. A husband is the head of his family.

If one accepts the idea that the Church teaches errors on matters of faith and morals, then there is no reason to be Catholic.

Again, I very strongly recommend the article I linked to for anyone interested to read.

Pax Christi

 

[Dan_Daly]

Repeating a wrong over many years does not make it right. Some can refer to a sixteenth century Catechism etc. II refer to our current Catechism and to the beloved John Paul II.

Divinely ordained authority of a husband over his wife? I know Christ said “On this rock I build my Church” regarding Peter and his successors.Christ did not tap l his apostles on the shoulder and give them authority over all women.

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

Genesis 3:16

Also strictly speaking, Christ did give his apostles authority over all women- and all men. We’ve gone over this before Severus. You and I are both under the authority of men- our bishops and our Holy Father. That doesn’t make either one of us feel enslaved nor empower our Bishop or Pope to be a tyrant. Same goes for Husband and Wife. Authority is responsiblity not license to do whatever you want, and humility and obedience are treasured virtues.

Pax

 

[Dan_Daly]

I hate to jump in the middle of this, I have been meaning to find time to post on this thread all day. This is as good of place as any.

Here is the difficulty: It does not match anyone’s experience, especially any Catholic family experience.

The concept of wife’s being submissive to the husband, and the position Dan Daly has been advocating, is difficult to argue against; it is the Church teaching. I will say that this is the one teaching of the Church I have struggled with understanding the most. And the above explanation of this teaching: the wife and husband, discuss, listen, learn, etc; but at the end of the day if there is no agreement the man decides; I have heard many times. It doesn’t work for me; and it doesn’t work for the others because it does not match anyone’s experience.

One of the very great things about Catholic teachings is that they never seem to contradict our human experience. Consider the Church’s moral teachings on sexuality for example: when you look at our human experience objectively, you can see the Church is right time and time again; what the Church teaches works. Look at original sin: as GK Chesterton said, it can be proven any day by looking throught the London times. There just is no conflict with Church teaching and our human experience. But on the surface, I have always thought it is hard to say this, with respect to wives being submissive to husbands. It doesn’t seem to pass that litmus test.

I grew up in a Catholic family, in a Catholic community; everyone was Catholic. And let me tell you, the women I knew were all strong. And I don’t remember examples of what Dan Daly is describing. After 20some years of very happy marriage to a wonderful Catholic wife, I see the same result. I can think of a few times where my wife and I could not come to an agreement; a couple of times on very important matters. Not once was it resolve with “well your the husband, so I will submit”. I don’t remember that happening with my parents either, yet I remember at least one important issue that was discussed between the two of them for months; almost every night at the dinner table.

So how can this be? First all of, for husbands, we need to ultimately focus on “hubands love your wifes as Christ loved the church”. Yea, yea, and as the apostle said, He gave Himself up for the Church. We have that example. But we should consider a couple of other ways Christ loved the Church. They are the hints to how I have come to understand this teaching of submissiveness.

One of the very first posts on this thread was “Is the Church on equal footing with Christ?”. Don’t worry, I am not answering yes, the obvious answer is no. But before stating no, I would it is good to consider how close Christ made the Church to be on the same footing as He. The Church is The Mystical Body of Christ. The word mystical does not mean symbolic or represents. In some way we do not fully understand, the Church is the Body of Christ. That is what mystical means.

As such, Christ gave the Church real, and very important authority. And this is the key: He did not only give the Church authority, He pretty much said on certain matters He would abide by the Church’s decisions. “what you bound on earth, shall be bound in heaven; what you loose on earth, shall be loose in heaven”. There is no qualifier as to such as “what you bound on earth and I agree with, shall be bound in heaven”. And He did this with one of the ultimate responsibilities: forgiveness of sins. In Jewish tradition it was absolute blasphemous to thing anyone by God could forgive sins. And now, can you think of a more important thing the Church does. He also did it by providing it with the treasure of indulgences. He gaev the Church the authority to safeguard the truth.

And that, in a very practical sense, mirrors the experience in we see in many good Catholic families. Not only different roles, but different areas of authority. And some of the most important, eg education issues with kids, are often in the domain of the wife. That is true love of a wife. A wife should be given areas of authority AND a husband should agree to abide by those decisions. Likewise, areas of authority should be reserved for the husband, and likewise the wife abides by those decisions. Christ did that for His church, and we were told explicitly to mirror Christ’s love of church in our we love our wives.

Thank you for the very insightful post tafan.

You do raise a valid point. Even most Catholic families are at least in practice matriarchies. The primary reason for this is the failing of men to carry out their responsibilities, not any fault of the ladies.

I would point out that there is no conflict between being a strong woman and being a submissive and obedient wife. Our Lady has the strongest personality of any human person in history, male or female (remember Our Lord took on human nature, but is a Divine Person). Yet Our Lady was perfectly submissive and obedient to her husband. Her obedience and humility was one means of exercising her strength.

If you think the advocates of authentic Catholic patriarchy are advocating weak women, then you are mistaken. I don’t think that was your point, but could see how others might take it that way.

Pax Christi

 

[bmullins]

Dominion is such an ugly word in the way we use it. A lot of the argument going on here could easily be solved by simply reading the one verse before 5:22. 5:22 makes so much sense in light of 5:21. You can’t have a good relationship without all of it.

[bibledrb]Ephesians 5:21[/bibledrb]

Dominion is supposed to be a position of responsibility. In our societies we’ve made dominion one of dominance. Some see that verse of the a wife being under her husbands dominion as a call for a submissive wife and a dominate husband. Just as we’ve raped the earth of her natural resources because we ‘can’, we seem to think our wives should simply do whatever we say when we say it.

That’s clearly not God’s way. A husband should care for his wife. He should protect her natural resources, but he should also do what is best for her. That doesn’t mean he should make her decisions for her. It means they should be making decisions together. TOGETHER! How can one make a decision in her best interest, if her interests aren’t involved in the decision? It’s about submitting yourselves to each other! Only when we follow all of the advice do we find the full scripture of what love is.

When we look at love in the trinity what do we find? We find that Jesus is indeed submissive to the Father… but the Father in turn gives all of his authority to Jesus. That is the example of love that we are to find in our hearts.

Jesus knows the Father’s will and he does it. Not because he’s forced too, but because he loves God with all his heart, mind and soul. A wife in turn knows her husbands will, and she does it. Not because she has to, but because she loves him. The husband’s will is the hard part. What should the husbands will be? To please God. So if the wife is pleasing God, then the husband is pleased, period. So the wife should know up front that if she pleases God she pleases her husband. The husband should know that if he pleases God he pleases his wife. They please each other by pleasing God… it’s really that simple.

 

[Dan_Daly]

I don’t know. It’s a good question. That said, St. Paul also wrote, “Slaves, obey your masters” in the very same book… in fact, quite near to that passage. I realize that there is a context in that passage, but so too is there context to the call for submission in marriage. I know you don’t endorse slavery, but how are you going to throw that out but keep the part about marriage?

And, in any event, your interpretation of the passage, while reasonable, is not the only interpretation.

Do I endorse slavery? Interesting question. I fully endorse slavery to Our Immaculate Mother as explained by St. Louis De Montfort in True Devotion to Mary.

The fact is that we are Our Lord’s and Our Lady’s slaves whether we endorse the idea or not. We simply have a choice of striving to be an obedient slave or being a rebellious one.

Pax Christi

 

[ChiRho]

What does it sound like to you? Give me your own words, then. You’re talking about a situation in which one party is always wrong, the other always right (except in regards to sin.) You’re talking about a situation in which one party must “submit” to the decisions of another, whether they make sense or not.

Would you prefer to deem it a “lord/serf” relationship? At the very least, boss/employee. Neither of these things sound like a partnership and both are disrespectful of women. I will have no part in treating my wife like a 2nd class citizen, sorry. We make decisions together.

If you want to disagree with St. Paul you’re free to do so – but don’t make claims that anyone on this forum are advocating a slave/master relationship. And no amount of pats on the back from resident CAF cheerleaders Severus and Walking Home, 50% of whose posts are “GREAT POST!!!1!!!1! ” will make it so

 

[severus68]

To the woman also he said: I will multiply thy sorrows, and thy conceptions: in sorrow shalt thou bring forth children, and thou shalt be under thy husband’s power, and he shall have dominion over thee.

Yes, we have gone through this before.

Just because the apostles were men and Peter and his successors were/are men does not give any man to dominate any woman. Jesus by his own example pointed this to us.

 

[severus68]

I’m sorry you think I’m not being courteous. This was not my intention at all. I’m simply expressing some observances… Actually, my husband and I have put a great deal of thought, prayer and research into what we think our marriage should be. I have full confidence that we are doing our best to live out our marriage as God intended it to be. I’m sorry that you can’t understand that one can be submissive to the one she loves without being a slave, serf, employee or any other number of derogatory labels you may conjure up to slap onto me and other women like me. You’re idea of marriage is an equal partnership where each spouse is equally important, this is exactly right! Marriage can’t exist without the man or the woman. Their roles in the context of the marriage will never and can never be the same. Men can’t nurture a growing baby in the womb, they can’t nurse that same child and will never experience the same bond that mother and baby experience. Does that make the mother/child relationship more important than the father/child relationship? Or does it just make it (equal) but different? Each spouse has an equally important role to play in the marriage, those roles are different!

Please understand that nothing of what I said about this issue is personal to you or anyone else here. I find some making it personal.

Yes, only a woman can give birth and nurse a child but a man can have as close a bond to his children as his wife. How does the fact that a man cannot give birth or nurse giive him authority over his wife?

 

[severus68]

See, in the functioning Catholic marriages I know, there are no areas of authority that are the sole purview of just one spouse. Children, employment, money, health care, retirement planning, extended family, leisure time, all are are discussed and decided together. And the discussions keep on until an agreement is reached. There’s no “Well, we’ve reached an impasse, so guess what - I have the final say.”

When that happens, the person who gets that “final say” runs the risk of only giving lip service to listening and negotiating. Discussions oftentimes are held only so the spouse without power is placated to come degree. The marriage isn’t about a union of two adults, and at its worst it becomes some kind of twisted parent/child arrangement.

But if what you’ve described works for you, fine. But I know first hand this is not the way in every Catholic marriage.

Luna

Yes, I agree.

 

[severus68]

If you want to disagree with St. Paul you’re free to do so – but don’t make claims that anyone on this forum are advocating a slave/master relationship. And no amount of pats on the back from resident CAF cheerleaders Severus and Walking Home, 50% of whose posts are “GREAT POST!!!1!!!1! ” will make it so

Will you please stop making this personal and posting like this… You disagree, fine.

 

[ChiRho]

Will you please stop making this personal and posting like this… You disagree, fine.

You only seem to be the morality police when it’s against your favor, but have no problem with people making obnoxious claims like others are advocating a slave/master relationship, and that others “feel sorry” for the spouses of people in this thread. It’s not personal because I don’t know you personally, and has to do with the typical substance of your posts. I find the cheering just as obnoxious in type as in a live debate, where one member of the audience is constantly yelling “yeahhhhhhhhhhhh!!!” “awesome!!!”

 

[FatherOfTwelve]

Let’s all hear what God has to say on the subject.

Gen 3: 16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and** he shall rule over you**.”

Eph 5: 23
For the **husband is the head of the wife **as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might
present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

1st Peter 3: 1
Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see your reverent and chaste behavior. 3 Let not yours be the outward adorning with braiding of hair, decoration of gold, and wearing of fine clothing, 4 but let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable jewel of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. 5 So once the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves and were submissive to their husbands, 6* as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are now her children if you do right and let nothing terrify you.

1st Corinthians Chapter 11
1* Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ. 2* I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. 3* But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

Chapter 14: 33 For God is not a God of confusion but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, 34* the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. 35 If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. 36 **What! **Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached? 37 If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. 38 If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized. (Sorry Severus68)

Colosians 3: 18
Wives, be subject to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. 19 Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them. 20 Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. 21 Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged.

Titus 2: 3
Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, 4 and **so train the young women **to love their husbands and children, 5 to be sensible, chaste, domestic, kind, and submissive to their husbands, that the word of God may not be discredited.
Proverbs 31:
10 A good wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. 11 The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. 12 She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life. 13 She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands. 14 She is like the ships of the merchant, she brings her food from afar. 15 She rises while it is yet night and provides food for her household and tasks for her maidens. 16 She considers a field and buys it; with the fruit of her hands she plants a vineyard. 17 She girds her loins with strength and makes her arms strong. 18 She perceives that her merchandise is profitable. Her lamp does not go out at night. 19 She puts her hands to the distaff, and her hands hold the spindle. 20 She opens her hand to the poor, and reaches out her hands to the needy. 21 She is not afraid of snow for her household, for all her household are clothed in scarlet. 22 She makes herself coverings; her clothing is fine linen and purple. 23 Her husband is known in the gates, when he sits among the elders of the land. 24 She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers girdles to the merchant. 25 Strength and dignity are her clothing, and she laughs at the time to come. 26 She opens her mouth with wisdom, and the teaching of kindness is on her tongue. 27 She looks well to the ways of her household, and does not eat the bread of idleness. 28 Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: 29 “Many women have done excellently, but you surpass them all.” 30 Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised. 31 Give her of the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the gates.

Proverbs Chapter 12
1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid. 2 A good man obtains favor from the LORD, but a man of evil devices he condemns. 3 A man is not established by wickedness, but the root of the righteous will never be moved. 4 A good wife is the crown of her husband, but she who brings shame is like rottenness in his bones.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

I will respond with more shortly…Stay tuned:thumbsup:

 

[tafan]

Thank you for the very insightful post tafan.

You do raise a valid point. Even most Catholic families are at least in practice matriarchies. The primary reason for this is the failing of men to carry out their responsibilities, not any fault of the ladies.

I would point out that there is no conflict between being a strong woman and being a submissive and obedient wife. Our Lady has the strongest personality of any human person in history, male or female (remember Our Lord took on human nature, but is a Divine Person). Yet Our Lady was perfectly submissive and obedient to her husband. Her obedience and humility was one means of exercising her strength.

If you think the advocates of authentic Catholic patriarchy are advocating weak women, then you are mistaken. I don’t think that was your point, but could see how others might take it that way.

Pax Christi

No, I was not describing matriarchies, or men who were failing. That is. It it at all. I look at my family, probably 95% of decisions are made by one of the two of us, with very little discussion. What is being made for dinner, what investment is being made, can a kid go to a friend’s party, what furniture is being bought, who are we inviting over to a dinner party, etc, etc. And in general, it is because there are areas of authority.
Or because one spouse will just abide by the decision.

T