This is just blaming God for our failings. It’s what Adam did in the Garden when him got busted. There’s also a question left out of the inquiry: God became man, and suffered and died to take away the sin of the world. What have you done in response?
Fantastic post! I have this book though it’s been a while since I’ve last read it. It certainly does deserve another read. And your wording was more than satisfactory.
Who are we to judge God’s motives as being somehow unjust? God is more perfectly just than we could ever imagine being, so if we consider HIM unjust the problem is with our flawed perception and not His justice.
Another brilliant answer, WarriorAngel. And you are right! It’s just (and I’m sure I’m being annoying with it by now…) what about natural disasters and the suffering brought about NOT by others utilizing their free-will? If children are dying of starvation because there is no food - whose fault is it? Well, to a certain extent it’s ours - but we can’t save everybody, or at least you and I alone can’t… So God is just allowing them to suffer for however it long this starvation process takes? How painful! Surely there is a reason… apart from free-will (since free-will applies to those instances where harm comes about as a direct or indirect result of another human being.)In Romans it tells us God gives His laws into the hearts of men - even if they were never instructed of His ways.
So even athiests have a sense of good and bad.
Knowing what is good or bad is not an instinct absent of an Author - because if there wasn’t a Mighty God Who created us, there would be no conscience or good and bad - and in fact - there wouldnt be intelligence to which we were created to emulate [altho ours is faulted]
The soul chooses good and bad. It is the soul that is judged by those choices.
If we came from an accident - its unlikely we would have rules or laws of civility.
Hi ya WM.:tiphat: Nice to see you in here.
Its simple really.
God is able, but He chooses instead to give us the free reign to accept the consequences of what we choose … and i say we as tho all men were in the Garden because we are fallen - yet Adam and Eve were created perfect without sin… so how much more could God have done for us?
Suffering does bring us close to God - because the Bible says He will chastize His children.
- I am going philosophical now]
He is always waiting for us to trust in Him that He will give a miracle or let us choose to use what we suffer for the betterment of our souls.
WE have no idea how it would feel if God were using us like sock puppets doing His will at whim. And then where is the friendship and love we could share with Him if we are given everything at the cost of losing the ability to choose to love Him in return.
Its a choice. Pain, suffering, and all things stemming from evil [which the serpent told Eve we would know] is exactly what we gained.
Is God unable - or is man too willfull??
God gave the choice. Instead of throwing away humanity with Adam and Eve, however; He choose to do something satan couldnt comprehend. He died for us.
Understand something - this would seem impossible for satan to comprehend GOD dying this way - since he knew Him on the throne and might…OR maybe satan knew all too well HE would do this - and so he relished the torture The Lord suffered on our account.
HOW humble He was - even to the evil of the world - uncomplaining of that done to Him - Who never once wanted evil for us. He took it upon Himself - HE Who did not have to.
God - the Mighty One, the Holy One, the One Who is perfect - came to earth in flesh and died the most painful death to show that even tho sin cannot enter into the abode of Heaven and touch Him - He would willingly come to earth as the Son and take on the horrendous beatings and crucifixion for the reparation of sins so we could again - with full will, come to Him eternally…
God made mankind perfect.
Answers comes to mind. [and my eyes are half shut lol]
A simple question might help… How is it that you know that what people like Hitler and Stalin did was evil? Hitler certainly knew he was doing wrong. He was raised Roman Catholic. His mother actually had hopes for him becoming a priest, if my memory serves correctly.
Good response, Mark. It certainly does seem like it’s placing blame. However, despite Jesus’ sacrifice, sin still runs ramped and children are still dying at the rate of 1 per every 5 minutes of starvation. Some give a much higher statistic: feedingchildren.org/whatismain.php And they don’t know anything about Jesus. I’m certain none of us (though I may be wrong) have suffered extreme starvation… (I need to find a new example - this one is tiring) What do you propose I do response? I give what I can and sometimes when i shouldn’t.
True, Lily. I only suggested this from the C.S. Lewis standpoint that our standard is derived from God Himself. If that were true, then why wouldn’t our standards be the same as God’s?Who are we to judge God’s motives as being somehow unjust? God is more perfectly just than we could ever imagine being, so if we consider HIM unjust the problem is with our flawed perception and not His justice.
WE - His ppl - are responsible for others.
they thought whaqt they were doing was right or necessary. but they weren’t alone, hitler didn’t stand on the ramps of auschwitz, stalin wasn’t the warden of some siberian gulag.
like every one else i can only judge by what i know. i recognize however that those judgements are made in the lack of complete knowledge of right and wrong, i know that i really dont know right from wrong intrinsically.
i think i unbderstood, maybe, let me know
That’s great! That the Church does that, I mean. But why then the suffering of the innocent. Why must they suffer as opposed to us directly or someone closer if we are the target beneficiaries intended to learn a lesson? Or if the sufferers themselves are the students - why then must they die before they have a chance to learn?
I think you understood too - at least that means my thoughts weren’t too jarbled…they thought whaqt they were doing was right or necessary. but they weren’t alone, hitler didn’t stand on the ramps of auschwitz, stalin wasn’t the warden of some siberian gulag.
it took the cooperation of millions in order for these atrocities to be carried out. those peole were concinced of their actions
like every one else i can only judge by what i know. i recognize however that those judgements are made in the lack of complete knowledge of right and wrong, i know that i really dont know right from wrong intrinsically.
my sense of morality then comes from G-d as taught to me by the majesterium of the church.
that is the only reliable source.
i think i unbderstood, maybe, let me know
to believe they understood what they were doing to be wrong seems to assume they were all sociopaths. thats not realistic.
that comes from the Christianity. it has permeated half the worlds cultures for millenia now, its still the standard for non-believers, even if they dont know the how or why.
Not sure exactly what you mean.That’s great! That the Church does that, I mean. But why then the suffering of the innocent. Why must they suffer as opposed to us directly or someone closer if we are the target beneficiaries intended to learn a lesson? Or if the sufferers themselves are the students - why then must they die before they have a chance to learn?
Have a good night WarriorAngel - and thanks for the invite!
I’d have to disagree… I don’t think it would make them sociopaths at all. I think the point you were driving at originally is that we don’t have a sense of right and wrong. I believe we do, though that doesn’t mean that these ideas can’t be persuaded to believe something else. Many people though they know it’s wrong, abuse drugs because they’ve been persuaded, whether by their own feelings, or by peers that the effect is worth the consequence. Many people though they know it’s wrong shoplift things because they’ve been persuaded, again by their own feeling of satisfaction or by peers doing the same, that the effect is worth the consequence. Many people have killed other people in war throughout which they believed that it was God’s will EVEN though they were aware that the religion for which they were fighting for taught against murder. And I’m not pointing at any one specific religion there - I’m convinced that a large portion of them have fallen into this category. I’m sure you have done things that you Knew were wrong even at the time you did it - lying, stealing, harboring bad thoughts, harboring lustful thoughts, etc. as I have been guilty of the same. And I wouldn’t put either of us on a list of sociopaths.
And with good reason. They were convinced by some very good sounding words (as many of us have been at times for much more trivial things) that what they were doing, though immediately wrong was for a greater good.
That’s just a bit ethnocentric. If by ‘permeated’ those mentioned cultures you mean trekked through at one point or another, then yes - I can go along with that. However if you mean that half of all world religions have a sense of right and wrong directly because of Christianity I would strongly disagree. Before Christianity came about these ideas of right and wrong were about. And what would you say about the other half who practice a decent set of morals?
no, i mean the half of the world that we directly influenced, and continue to influence. not religions, but cultures