Episcopal Church in a tailspin: The main candidates for Bishop of Los Angeles are almost all gay and lesbian

[NoWings]

Sorry if what I say offends, NoWings. I wish you could get some wings and find some faith. You sound like you want to believe (sounds like an X Files movie) and you are making your acceptance of God based on a visible miracle. You’re asking for a sign it seems, like St. Thomas with Our Lord. Augustine, a man of great faith and a major doctor of the Church, never had a road to Damascus moment, the type of miracle or supernatural or powerful experience you seem to hope for. If that is what you require, you might die an agnostic. I hope that is not the case.

That is what I expect will happen. Not much I can do about it.

You are offended by my chickens comment. I’m sorry if that hurt your feelings. I will say that I’m not thrilled by your Easter Bunny and Santa Clause remarks too much either. You’re making it sound like anyone who believes in Christ must be a gullible goober who would be dumb enough to still believe and pray to (for some reason?) the Easter bunny or Santa? I’m not that stupid, friend. Also you sit in judgment of my charity and representative abilities and yet you roll your eyes and say sarcastic remarks like “gotcha,” trying to point out my inconsistencies in a smarty pants way. I think we’ll call it even with the charity game…

I wasn’t meaning the Santa Claus comments with flippancy. I was meaning that it’s difficult for me to even pray because I’d feel rather ridiculous calling out to something that may not be real.

If you can just up and do so, good for you. I can’t.

Keep in mind you’re representing angostics everywhere too and didn’t do a very good job with some of your comments either. You talk about how you are wired. It sounds like you’re wired to need signs and scientific obvious phenomenon to believe. I don’t know what to say there. You also act as if I’m questioning whether you’d like to see your passed-on loved ones someday. I don’t doubt it but that’s not the purpose of our faith as Christians, to see loved ones. We are Christians to bathe in the light of Christ, know God, and serve Him. All you can do is read Scripture, pray, consult a priest or other spiritual guides, study, read, and come to a decision. In the end, “I don’t know” is a copout to me. Sorry if that offends you but I think people should take a stand. I like “yes” or “no” but not “kinda…”

Well, agnosticism isn’t a structured faith, but I’ll take that. Yes, I’m wired to need some kind of evidence. Thomas needed it and he walked with Him.

I’m sorry that you don’t like “I don’t know” but some of us just really… REALLY do not know. I don’t know because I want to or because I like it. I don’t know because I don’t know.

That’s about all I can say about it.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

That is what I expect will happen. Not much I can do about it.

I wasn’t meaning the Santa Claus comments with flippancy. I was meaning that it’s difficult for me to even pray because I’d feel rather ridiculous calling out to something that may not be real.

If you can just up and do so, good for you. I can’t.

Well, agnosticism isn’t a structured faith, but I’ll take that. Yes, I’m wired to need some kind of evidence. Thomas needed it and he walked with Him.

I’m sorry that you don’t like “I don’t know” but some of us just really… REALLY do not know. I don’t know because I want to or because I like it. I don’t know because I don’t know.

That’s about all I can say about it.

I commend you for your honesty and frankly I think your doing exactly right. You cannot pretend to believe what you don’t believe and you can’t accept someone else’s demand as to how you must believe.

In truth, not a single one of us “knows” we just have come to a place, by very varied means of firmly believing. Some have come by intellect, some by some experience, some by a long life of church and family that were and are loving to them. There are doubtless dozens of other ways.

I firmly believe that each person is where they should be on the journey. It may not be in your entire life a journey you feel part of. It may however happen tomorrow. It is no one’s place to judge or push you.

I would suggest only one thing. That you read and seek as broadly as possible. It may be that Christianity doesn’t speak to you, but some other faith community will. I am convinced that God reaches out to all his children though whatever mechanism works best for them. We are rich in diversity. Seek out the new thought, Eastern, Jewish, American Indian, whatever draws you in any way.

you may find a home there, or oddly sometimes, it leads you back to your origins of faith.

Whatever happens, you are beloved and upheld. Seek to be good and do good, and you may be surprised.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That is what I expect will happen. Not much I can do about it.

I wasn’t meaning the Santa Claus comments with flippancy. I was meaning that it’s difficult for me to even pray because I’d feel rather ridiculous calling out to something that may not be real.

If you can just up and do so, good for you. I can’t.

Well, agnosticism isn’t a structured faith, but I’ll take that. Yes, I’m wired to need some kind of evidence. Thomas needed it and he walked with Him.

I’m sorry that you don’t like “I don’t know” but some of us just really… REALLY do not know. I don’t know because I want to or because I like it. I don’t know because I don’t know.

That’s about all I can say about it.

Fair enough, Wings. I wish you the best. Sorry our argument got heated. I guess you’re searching and want to know and love God but you haven’t found Him. I wish you well in doing so. I apologize if I came off in an offensive tone. I hope you find Christ. You’re asking the right questions, come to the right place, and you have a sincere heart. May God bless you…

 

[NoWings]

Fair enough, Wings. I wish you the best. Sorry our argument got heated. I guess you’re searching and want to know and love God but you haven’t found Him. I wish you well in doing so. I apologize if I came off in an offensive tone. I hope you find Christ. You’re asking the right questions, come to the right place, and you have a sincere heart. May God bless you…

Irini passi.

 

[leopolis1]

We Catholics are not allowed to use the word “Church” when we mean protestants. Episcopalian denomination is a rubbish heap and rubbish joins the rubbish. LBGT come to Episcopalians because they know it’s where they can be successful. I don’t feel sorry for Episcs at all, it’s high time they came to some conclusions.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

We Catholics are not allowed to use the word “Church” when we mean protestants. Episcopalian denomination is a rubbish heap and rubbish joins the rubbish. LBGT come to Episcopalians because they know it’s where they can be successful. I don’t feel sorry for Episcs at all, it’s high time they came to some conclusions.

That’s a touch harsh.

It may be hard to believe from over in Europe, but there are actually believing Christians who have become ensnared in the Anglican / Episcopal denominations in Canada and the US.

The Catechism teaches that our separated brethren do possess some truth, in particular, the truth contained in Holy Scripture. Some are fighting hard to hold that truth in those troubled communities. Unfortunately for them, it is becoming clear that the Anglican / Episcopal scheme of things is such that, when that truth is attacked, the apparatus of the organization is powerless to protect it. Let me be clear: In some cases, groups have chosen not to protect that truth, but my point is that the Anglican apparatus is such that it cannot do so effectively in any event. That, I’d submit, is why the denomination is in the process of shattering into pieces, and also why departures from the tenets of the historic Christian faith not only continue, but intensify.

Historically, the Church has voiced as her primary concern for believers in these situations that they will fall prey to indifference, and cease to belong to any ecclesial community altogether. And locally, that seems to be happening among Anglicans. Yes, some have come home, some gone to other denominations, but more have just chucked the whole “church” thing.

As horrible and disgusting as some of the manifestations of the erosion of belief in Anglican institutions have been, our first concern should be for those ensnared Christians who are fighting to hold on to those truths that they possess. Prayers for their protection and strengthening would not be inappropriate.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s a touch harsh.

It may be hard to believe from over in Europe, but there are actually believing Christians who have become ensnared in the Anglican / Episcopal denominations in Canada and the US.

The Catechism teaches that our separated brethren do possess some truth, in particular, the truth contained in Holy Scripture. Some are fighting hard to hold that truth in those troubled communities. Unfortunately for them, it is becoming clear that the Anglican / Episcopal scheme of things is such that, when that truth is attacked, the apparatus of the organization is powerless to protect it. Let me be clear: In some cases, groups have chosen not to protect that truth, but my point is that the Anglican apparatus is such that it cannot do so effectively in any event. That, I’d submit, is why the denomination is in the process of shattering into pieces, and also why departures from the tenets of the historic Christian faith not only continue, but intensify.

Historically, the Church has voiced as her primary concern for believers in these situations that they will fall prey to indifference, and cease to belong to any ecclesial community altogether. And locally, that seems to be happening among Anglicans. Yes, some have come home, some gone to other denominations, but more have just chucked the whole “church” thing.

As horrible and disgusting as some of the manifestations of the erosion of belief in Anglican institutions have been, our first concern should be for those ensnared Christians who are fighting to hold on to those truths that they possess. Prayers for their protection and strengthening would not be inappropriate.

Blessings,

Gerry

Great post, Gerry. You’re right, there are many good people in Anglicanism. There are traditional, holy people in African Anglican churches, continuing Anglican churches, and the newly-formed ACNA. The liberal Church of England and especially the totally-screwball TEC tend to overshadow the good folks who are sincerely wanting to walk with Christ in earnest. You are quite correct that the apparatus is inadequate to handle the insanity. When a guy like Spong comes along, there is no excommunication like in Roman Catholicism. There aren’t any checks and balances. It’s like a town hall meeting with everyone thrown in. There is no real ‘orthodoxy’ in Anglicanism really. The 39 Articles never did a very good job of providing that. Low Church folks don’t totally respect the 39 Articles in that they don’t respect the priesthood (they prefer the idea of ministers/elders) and the high church people choose to disregard the prohibitions against adoration, purgatory, invocation of saints, etc. There is no real authority and this is why you see even the new province allowing female ordination in some parts, forbidding it in another.

In my old diocese, I attended the service when they decided to secede from the Episcopal Church. I was shocked at how the rector was so warm and fuzzy and tolerant to the people who wanted to stay “in” the TEC? He said, ‘if you’re in favor of women’s ordination or non-traditional forms of marriage, and totally disagree with us, we’re not encouraging you to leave or feel out of harmony with us, you’re welcome to stay and believe as you wish. We will respect you despite disagreeing with those views’ etc. etc. My old rector was conservative when he spoke with me at coffee hour, moderate to the moderates, and a great listener to the liberals. I hate that about Anglicanism. Many priests (not all!) have to just put up with hearing things that repel their theology in order to keep harmony and order. They have such small numbers that, when people bail in any number, the coffers suffer greatly.

It’s a tough situation. Some friends of ours, who are Catholics also converted from Anglicanism, say that they hope the new province fails and Anglicanism implodes to that those folks will become Catholic again, the only real option. Even though I’m a Catholic, and I’m sure that is the right attitude to have from a RCC perspective, I can’t help but want to see the conservative, traditional Anglicans make a go of it and prosper. I don’t wish ill on them. Maybe that’s what I’m called to do, but I just can’t do it. I have too much affection for Anglicanism in my ‘former life.’ They have so much beauty. But I DO see why they fail in so many areas. In Africa they’re even starting to cave in to women’s ordination and falling into heresy. It’s sad. And it’s amazing how this denomination has fallen like dominoes since the 1970’s. For all those liberals who thought W.O. wouldn’t have any effect, I present exhibit A: The Episcopal Church!

 

[theistgal]

Well congrats for fighting for the rights of agnosticism and the whole little self-love moment brushing your hands together. How childish can we get here? Why don’t you blow into the barrell of a 44 magnum, spin it on your fingers like the Lone Ranger, then slap it down into your holster after you ‘burned me.’ LOL…ga ga lol…my daddy can beat up your daddy! LOL…give me a break, theist.

The hilarious part is that you fight to defend agnosticism and then ask them if you represented their position right? What the heck? So confident, knowledgable, certain, and then cocky…oh and by the way did I get that right y’all? LOL

And the absurdity of your position amidst my “ad hominems” lol…agnostics are not people who have no opinion about God but rather people who aren’t sure there is a God? You’re right, huge difference; how could I have missed that? They have no opinion in that they refuse to take a position, period. there might be a god? there might not? uh, i don’t know? But I refuse to say there isn’t one? But then again there might be one? Yep, that sounds like an opinion. Reminds me of a Rush lyric “if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.” Does’t wash with me, it’s no opinion.

And by the way, I didn’t ask for your “help” and where I come from, if people don’t ask, don’t tell so you can de-brush and put your hands back in their holster…thank yuh! lol

Uh … ok.

Once again: they may not have an opinion you or I agree with, but it’s still an opinion. You said it yourself: not making a choice IS making a choice; and choosing not to have an opinion IS an opinion. What’s your problem with that?

And btw, I do tend to be sympathetic towards atheists and agnostics, because I have been one, and have some idea where they’re coming from. (And have been fighting not to fall back into that mindset, particularly after reading some of what passes for “apologetics” around here. )

OK?

(And whether it’s OK with you or not, I stand by my statements. Deal with it. )

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Uh … ok.

Once again: they may not have an opinion you or I agree with, but it’s still an opinion. You said it yourself: not making a choice IS making a choice; and choosing not to have an opinion IS an opinion. What’s your problem with that?

And btw, I do tend to be sympathetic towards atheists and agnostics, because I have been one, and have some idea where they’re coming from. (And have been fighting not to fall back into that mindset, particularly after reading some of what passes for “apologetics” around here. )

OK?

(And whether it’s OK with you or not, I stand by my statements. Deal with it. )

Wow, talk about a delayed reaction. “Deal with it?” What is your problem theist? Get a grip on yourself. You have one heck of a lot of 'tude. Your post is nothing but a restatement of your last post. If you want, you can state it a third and fourth time and I will still disagree with you. I do not agree that not having an opinion is an opinion. But nevertheless nowings and I brought this disagreement to a head. Why you’re still bringing it up days and days later is beyond me. You talk about bad apologetics on here–your attitude and smart alleck tone sure doesn’t advance your cause either. Consider yourself ignored…

 

[theistgal]

Wow, talk about a delayed reaction. “Deal with it?” What is your problem theist? Get a grip on yourself. You have one heck of a lot of 'tude. Your post is nothing but a restatement of your last post. If you want, you can state it a third and fourth time and I will still disagree with you. I do not agree that not having an opinion is an opinion. But nevertheless nowings and I brought this disagreement to a head. Why you’re still bringing it up days and days later is beyond me. You talk about bad apologetics on here–your attitude and smart alleck tone sure doesn’t advance your cause either. Consider yourself ignored…

I think I’ll return the favor and put you on MY ignore list. (Say hi to Zundrah when you get there. )

FWIW - you are incredibly rude.

 

[theistgal]

I humbly apologize to anyone offended by my “smart alleck” ways, and also for my audacity in responding to a post addressed to me 3 longggg days ago.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I humbly apologize to anyone offended by my “smart alleck” ways, and also for my audacity in responding to a post addressed to me 3 longggg days ago.

Don’t give it a second thought theistgal. You’ve joined a growing group of mostly women whom a certain someone doesn’t care for because we talk back. We’re all on ignore, while he airs his personal laundry of “loathing” of TEC. Only he is allowed to be arrogant and rude.

 

[emeraldcoast]

Don’t give it a second thought theistgal. You’ve joined a growing group of mostly women whom a certain someone doesn’t care for because we talk back. We’re all on ignore, while he airs his personal laundry of “loathing” of TEC. Only he is allowed to be arrogant and rude.

:clapping::dancing::tiphat:

AMEN! AMEN!

 

[querying]

:clapping::dancing::tiphat:

AMEN! AMEN!

Real mature and Christian

 

[emeraldcoast]

Real mature and Christian

Do a search of Gurney’s post and you will understand…

God Bless!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Boy that ignore button is the greatest thing since sliced bread!

 

[Sellers1]

After the notorious Anaheim convention, the Episcopal Church now has opened the flood gates to all gay, lesbian, cross-dressers, and bisexual folks who wish to be bishops. The Los Angeles episcopacy is now open for candidates, and most of them are LBGT!

This article posted by David Virtue describes the scene…for anyone who left TEC, I’m sure you won’t have any regrets now!

virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=10950

Hmmm. Weren’t all the pedophile Catholic priests who molested those minor boys just gay or were they cross dressers and such just in hiding as well?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hmmm. Weren’t all the pedophile Catholic priests who molested those minor boys just gay or were they cross dressers and such just in hiding as well?

Wow, Sellers, are you on a quest to pick on ole Gurney today. I’m touched and flattered

Let’s see, where to begin…

Pedophile priests are not condoned by Catholic canon law or moral law. We do not condone child molestation. You know that, right? Because it’d be sad and pathetic if you actually believed that the Church is ok with pedophilia or if you thought the lay folks are ok with it.

The Episcopal Church openly, proudly, and loudly endorses the gay agenda, cross-dressers (a P.C. chap like you would probably prefer “transgender”), lesbians with abortions, and other such interesting lifestyles. Or maybe you missed the whole Anaheim convention?

So, to review for you here…

One Church had some bad apples, individuals not endorsed by the Church, who committed heinous, disgusting crimes against innocents. That doesn’t mean that the Church endorses their lifestyle or is ok with it.

The Episcopal Church (perhaps this is your church? I don’t know because you put the nice vague monicker of “protestant” which could take on 33,000 variations at this point) endorses sin. See…endorse vs. doesn’t endorse…

Any other cheap shots you have up your sleeve or would you actually like to debate theology and beliefs. I notice most of your posts are based on emotion and cheap shots, no debate, just slams.