Episcopal Church in a tailspin: The main candidates for Bishop of Los Angeles are almost all gay and lesbian

[StrawberryJam]

Who was it that came first for the atheist ??

In the US? Maybe the puritans? Depends on what country and time frame we are thinking about I guess.

 

[SonofMonica]

Let’s don’t turn this into a “Help! I’m oppressed!” thread.

 

[John92]

This is very sad indeed.

The Anglican Church gave us Newman.

Look at her now.

And all the souls being misled by these wolves in sheep’s clothing?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is very sad indeed.

The Anglican Church gave us Newman.

Look at her now.

And all the souls being misled by these wolves in sheep’s clothing?

Appropriate that you say “wolves in sheep’s clothing” seeing as how the “transgender” contingent of the TEC are men in women’s clothing wanting to be priests. I think of it as a sort of sacerdos tootsieus

 

[theistgal]

What irony, a poster named “theist gal” is fighting to defend an “agnostic?” ummmm (LOL, sorry, I"m using your intro device here) she has the right but I find it ironic coming from someone who has no opinion about God (basically what an agnostic IS compared to an atheist who at least is willing to say there is no god at all) is so quick to give an opinion. I found it humorous. Your saying that agnosticism is an opinion is the funny part to me. Someone who openly has no opinion about the existence of God has an opinion in that they have no opinion? It sounds like Chrissy off “Three’s Company” logic lol…

Putting aside your ad hominems , it is incorrect to describe an agnostic as “someone who has no opinion about God”. Agnostics believe that there may or may not be a God, but that it’s not possible to know for sure.*

Now that may not be an opinion you or I agree with. However, it is most definitely “an opinion about God”.

Therefore, agnostics DO have an opinion about God - that opinion being that it is not possible to know for sure if a God exists.

So there. [brushes hands together in satisfaction] Any other little logical conundrums I can help you with today?

(*Apologies to any agnostics if I’m misstating your position; I’ve been known to be wrong! )

 

[Siddhartha]

Who was it that came first for the atheist ??

One person’s “atheism” is another person’s “theism”:

…when anger towards Christians reached the point of violence and death, other Christians were careful to remember the deceased who were considered martyrs, “witnesses”.

One such remembrance in the form of a story related in a letter from one Christian group to others is the Martyrdom of Polycarp (written in the decades following Polycarp’s death in the 160s CE). It is here that we find the explicit charge of atheism. The angry crowds shout out “away with the atheists!” in reference to the Christians.

 

[NoWings]

I also don’t live in Darfur but I can be outraged, can’t
I? Thanks for letting me have my constitutional right to be concerned, care, and heck, even complain!

So… it’s okay for you to be outraged about Darfur even though you don’t live in it, and you think you have a constitutional right to show concern and complain…

But you don’t think an agnostic can have an opinion on God that has any value?

Right. Gotcha.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So… it’s okay for you to be outraged about Darfur even though you don’t live in it, and you think you have a constitutional right to show concern and complain…

But you don’t think an agnostic can have an opinion on God that has any value?

Right. Gotcha.

An agnostic with no opinion about God defending another agnostic with no opinion about God. NoWings, I fail to see your point. You don’t believe in anything, hence your agnosticism. It’s a chicken’s way out. If you want to have the guts to say, “I believe in Christ Jesus” or “I do NOT believe in Christ Jesus,” I’ll respect that either way. I may not agree on the latter but I’ll respect you for at least having a belief. But you, like the kids at my elementary school where I work, are shrugging your shoulders with that proverbial, “uhh huuh huh?” agnosticism deserves no respect from me, period. I do NOT think your opinions about God have any value as long as you refuse to take a position. That’s absurd. Who would ever take such an opinion seriously?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Putting aside your ad hominems , it is incorrect to describe an agnostic as “someone who has no opinion about God”. Agnostics believe that there may or may not be a God, but that it’s not possible to know for sure.*

Now that may not be an opinion you or I agree with. However, it is most definitely “an opinion about God”.

Therefore, agnostics DO have an opinion about God - that opinion being that it is not possible to know for sure if a God exists.

So there. [brushes hands together in satisfaction] Any other little logical conundrums I can help you with today?

(*Apologies to any agnostics if I’m misstating your position; I’ve been known to be wrong! )

Well congrats for fighting for the rights of agnosticism and the whole little self-love moment brushing your hands together. How childish can we get here? Why don’t you blow into the barrell of a 44 magnum, spin it on your fingers like the Lone Ranger, then slap it down into your holster after you ‘burned me.’ LOL…ga ga lol…my daddy can beat up your daddy! LOL…give me a break, theist.

The hilarious part is that you fight to defend agnosticism and then ask them if you represented their position right? What the heck? So confident, knowledgable, certain, and then cocky…oh and by the way did I get that right y’all? LOL

And the absurdity of your position amidst my “ad hominems” lol…agnostics are not people who have no opinion about God but rather people who aren’t sure there is a God? You’re right, huge difference; how could I have missed that? They have no opinion in that they refuse to take a position, period. there might be a god? there might not? uh, i don’t know? But I refuse to say there isn’t one? But then again there might be one? Yep, that sounds like an opinion. Reminds me of a Rush lyric “if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice.” Does’t wash with me, it’s no opinion.

And by the way, I didn’t ask for your “help” and where I come from, if people don’t ask, don’t tell so you can de-brush and put your hands back in their holster…thank yuh! lol

 

[NoWings]

An agnostic with no opinion about God defending another agnostic with no opinion about God. NoWings, I fail to see your point. You don’t believe in anything, hence your agnosticism. It’s a chicken’s way out. If you want to have the guts to say, “I believe in Christ Jesus” or “I do NOT believe in Christ Jesus,” I’ll respect that either way. I may not agree on the latter but I’ll respect you for at least having a belief. But you, like the kids at my elementary school where I work, are shrugging your shoulders with that proverbial, “uhh huuh huh?” agnosticism deserves no respect from me, period. I do NOT think your opinions about God have any value as long as you refuse to take a position. That’s absurd. Who would ever take such an opinion seriously?

You need to redefine your understanding of agnosticism.

Agnostics have an opinion about God. Hence, we’re agnostics. My opinion about God is “I don’t know.” Both sides have points, both sides have evidence, both have apologists.

I take great offense at your use of “chicken’s way out.” I don’t call you a chicken because you’re not a Muslim or a Hindu.

I’ve laid in bed begging for some glimmer or presence of something to give my life timeless, cosmic meaning. If you think I wouldn’t like to see my dead family members again when I die, you are mistaken. If you think I wouldn’t like to know there’s some Big Invisible Spirit all around us that cares about me and gives my life meaning, you are mistaken.

But, I will not pray to something that I’m not sure is there. I don’t pray to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I don’t assume very well. I’m just not wired to be that way.

You might want to work on your charity. You’re representing a Church on these boards.

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

The agnostic position is in fact a difficult one, because it is necessarily only a temporary one. It will cease to be an available position for someone to hold at the moment of death.

At that point, there will be only 2 choices: either there is, or there is not, a God. Even atheism can point to eternity, though in a vacuous manner in claiming that for the individual there is no such thing. But agnosticism cannot.

Rather than ascribe motives to agnostics, I think it’s more appropriate to simply note the intrinsic precarious nature of their position.

I wonder is agnosticism an accepted position in the Episcopal Church?

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[NoWings]

Rather than ascribe motives to agnostics, I think it’s more appropriate to simply note the intrinsic precarious nature of their position.

Wow. I’ve never run across theists that respected atheists more than agnostics. I figured it would be the reverse, since agnostics hold that there might be a god, while atheists are decidedly against it.

It goes something like this:

-I wonder if God is real…

-If so, WHICH God is real?

-If so, are there more than one?

-If so, are they all good?

-If so, are they all bad?

-If so, are some good and some bad?

-If not, is he good?

-If not, is he bad?

-How do I know I have the correct one?

-Is there a correct one?

-Are they all correct?

And so on. This comes from no religious upbringing. I’m not biased towards one religion over another.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You need to redefine your understanding of agnosticism.

Agnostics have an opinion about God. Hence, we’re agnostics. My opinion about God is “I don’t know.” Both sides have points, both sides have evidence, both have apologists.

I take great offense at your use of “chicken’s way out.” I don’t call you a chicken because you’re not a Muslim or a Hindu.

I’ve laid in bed begging for some glimmer or presence of something to give my life timeless, cosmic meaning. If you think I wouldn’t like to see my dead family members again when I die, you are mistaken. If you think I wouldn’t like to know there’s some Big Invisible Spirit all around us that cares about me and gives my life meaning, you are mistaken.

But, I will not pray to something that I’m not sure is there. I don’t pray to Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. I don’t assume very well. I’m just not wired to be that way.

You might want to work on your charity. You’re representing a Church on these boards.

Sorry if what I say offends, NoWings. I wish you could get some wings and find some faith. You sound like you want to believe (sounds like an X Files movie) and you are making your acceptance of God based on a visible miracle. You’re asking for a sign it seems, like St. Thomas with Our Lord. Augustine, a man of great faith and a major doctor of the Church, never had a road to Damascus moment, the type of miracle or supernatural or powerful experience you seem to hope for. If that is what you require, you might die an agnostic. I hope that is not the case.

You are offended by my chickens comment. I’m sorry if that hurt your feelings. I will say that I’m not thrilled by your Easter Bunny and Santa Clause remarks too much either. You’re making it sound like anyone who believes in Christ must be a gullible goober who would be dumb enough to still believe and pray to (for some reason?) the Easter bunny or Santa? I’m not that stupid, friend. Also you sit in judgment of my charity and representative abilities and yet you roll your eyes and say sarcastic remarks like “gotcha,” trying to point out my inconsistencies in a smarty pants way. I think we’ll call it even with the charity game…

Keep in mind you’re representing angostics everywhere too and didn’t do a very good job with some of your comments either. You talk about how you are wired. It sounds like you’re wired to need signs and scientific obvious phenomenon to believe. I don’t know what to say there. You also act as if I’m questioning whether you’d like to see your passed-on loved ones someday. I don’t doubt it but that’s not the purpose of our faith as Christians, to see loved ones. We are Christians to bathe in the light of Christ, know God, and serve Him. All you can do is read Scripture, pray, consult a priest or other spiritual guides, study, read, and come to a decision. In the end, “I don’t know” is a copout to me. Sorry if that offends you but I think people should take a stand. I like “yes” or “no” but not “kinda…”

 

[estesbob]

I’m guessing that these aren’t celibate gays either. How, exactly does the episcopal church biblically justify this? Or do they just pretend that certain bible verses don’t even exist?

.
I think he was saying that gay priests were more likely to abuse children.

Actaully the number of abused chidren was very small.The overwhelming number of abuses were homosexual rape of post pubsescent males. The Church has rightly decided from this that the homosexual behavior is not compatabile with the Priesthood. the Episcopal Church appears to feel otherwise,

 

[estesbob]

The agnostic position is in fact a difficult one, because it is necessarily only a temporary one. It will cease to be an available position for someone to hold at the moment of death.

At that point, there will be only 2 choices: either there is, or there is not, a God. Even atheism can point to eternity, though in a vacuous manner in claiming that for the individual there is no such thing. But agnosticism cannot.

Rather than ascribe motives to agnostics, I think it’s more appropriate to simply note the intrinsic precarious nature of their position.

I wonder is agnosticism an accepted position in the Episcopal Church?

Blessings,

Gerry

The best definition i have heard of agnosticism in one who “swears there aint no heaven and prays there aint no hell”

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

Wow. I’ve never run across theists that respected atheists more than agnostics. I figured it would be the reverse, since agnostics hold that there might be a god, while atheists are decidedly against it.

If you look again, I commented on neither atheists nor agnostics. I commented on the position of agnosticism, and briefly compared one aspect of it to the atheistic position.

In point of fact, I have encountered both atheists and agnostics who I have respected. I’ve also encountered atheists and agnostics for whom I could muster virtually no respect.

One must not fall into the trap of confusing an opinion about a position with an opinion about the person who holds it.

Blessings,

Gerry

 

[Gerry_Hunter]

The best definition i have heard of agnosticism in one who “swears there aint no heaven and prays there aint no hell”

Hey, have I run across a fellow David Clayton Thomas / Blood Sweat & Tears fan?

Gerry

 

[StrawberryJam]

The best definition i have heard of agnosticism in one who “swears there aint no heaven and prays there aint no hell”

I don’t swear there is no heaven, I think it highly unlikely and a bit of wishful thinking.
I don’t pray there is no hell, for the simple reason I don’t pray.

 

[abucs]

One person’s “atheism” is another person’s “theism”:

Yes, i have read that before, but in the context of your link, the Romans would not have put Christians and theists in different categories.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Policy in the catholic church on this matter has not been around that long and has evolved quite a bit.

Yes, I do think the Episcopal Church ought to be prayed for if it is in a tailspin by anyone’s belief.

I know this is a hard issue for all on all sides, but it is harder for the catholic church to ignore the things being made public information now, like the deposition I spoke about.
The reason it troubles me, is the parish I attend is listed in the depostion. It would anyway, even if not. But, I met the pastor who was the one who accepted one of these types of priests into the parish. He was shuffled.

I’m glad you attend your parish.

Also, I understand your concern. And we have no excuse for faulty policies, though please try not to place fault on the entire Church.