Episcopal Church: What happened?

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I am truly sorry you feel that way. I come from a branch of the Catholic Church that actually suffered greatly to remain Catholic, so it was in that spirit that I, at least, offered some comments above as shared by some of my very dear Anglican friends.

I do think the majority of Catholics feel for you and others in the Anglican Communion who remain faithful while hoping that conditions change.

Please consider that some of this is rather shocking for many Catholics, who worship in a Church with a hierarchical structure that is highly centralized in many respects. If, say, a diocesan bishop improperly ordained someone to the priesthood, we would reasonably expect that situation to be resolved rather quickly and decidedly. That expectation is often projected on other churches. In this cited case, we might expect the Archbishop of Canterbury, or the Queen herself as Defender of the Faith, to object at some level to the appointment of questionably qualified individuals to the episcopate.

I for one pray for you and your church, and all my dear friends who are your fellow faithful Episcopalians who share your views, conviction and courage to persevere faithfully and hopefully.

ByzCathCantor,

I appreciate your kindness and compassion. I do realize that some of the developments in TEC are shocking to Catholics. They are equally shocking to those of us who are conservative Anglicans. I witness the tireless efforts of our Rector, who faithfully proclaims the Gospel without compromise; and I admire his efforts to work within the Anglican Communion to restore orthodoxy. A few years ago, he was considered for Bishop, but he would not compromise his faith or his conservative position. A liberal Priest, who was sympathetic to the same-sex issues, became Bishop.

This is such a complicated situation. I appreciate your prayers, ByzCathCantor.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

You’ve certainly got my prayers. I tried to serve Christ and follow the “faith once delivered” in TEC for several years (as you know), and many Anglo-Catholic friends are still doing so. I certainly felt bad for them when I finally left last summer. The whole situation is very painful, especially for folks like us who really grew in the Lord when we discovered traditional Anglican worship.

Indiana Jones,
There is certainly a great deal of pain and suffering going on within the Communion. And as I said before, I respect those who choose to leave the Anglican Communion.

You found your way to the Catholic Church and I am happy for you, Indiana.

I’m still here posting on these Catholic forums. So, Catholicism is never far from my thoughts. But, as you know, one must be able to embrace Catholicism with the whole heart. You have been able to do that; but I just haven’t reached that point. So, I remain in my conservative Anglo Catholic Parish, working out my faith and service in my community.

I can’t say what tomorrow will bring. I’m just taking it one day at a time.

Peace and blessings to you, Indiana. I’m so glad you found your home in the Catholic Church.
Anna

 

[GaryTaylor]

When the Episcopal Church started to ordain woman that started the slippery slope towards homosexual ordination, this same thing has happened in the Lutheran body the ELCA. Inaddition, the Episcopal Church has leaders line Bishop John Shelby Spong and the Current Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori. Bishop Spong can hardly be considered a Christian, he rejects the virgin birth and the bodly resurrection and Bishop Schori isn’t too far behind. It has been said that error comes into the church in thee stages, first error ask fo toleration, after a while, error wants equal rights, then error says that it is the dominate force and truth either has to conform to error or leave the church.

Interesting, though in this period not really surprizing. On a world wide level same-sex marriage is really the issue that becomes a focal point in regards to religion. In fact its now an issue at the level of the UN.

That said this is an issue which involves mankind and Christianity. While perhaps we can state its rose in some ways in the Episcopal and Lutheran Church. Its also made its way to the arena of Catholics who have left to start their own catholic church etc. And all areas of mankind. No one is exempt here.

There’s a small window of opportunity left in the political/social arena for postive change in Christianity to occur and turn back from the errors which now confront mankind, and more important the USA and West.

At this point IMHO its more important to unite on what we do believe are the correct moral values in Christianity. In many ways we see this such as in the Walk for Life a week or so ago. Or with all the Catholic US Bishops and other’s now speaking out.

However, I view the Episcopal and Lutheran Church’s differently than I suppose many do. There’s a close relation to the Catholic Church and hope remains alive.

During difficult periods of time its imperative to work together. One cannot stand in a hole and argue about how they arrived in the hole. So a conscious effort to get out of the hole is required.

 

[Hokomai]

I think it’s always a bad thing when a religion caves and changes to what society deems to be the norm. Our society is riddle with drug use, gang violence, and many other sexual deviances. That doesn’t mean that our church should slowly allow active gang members to be priests, or to allow them to set up a meth lab in the back of the church rectory.

I’m with you on the meth labs and the gang members, but not on the gays. I agree that Churches should not change their stands because they are unpopular, but I do think they should change them when they are wrong. (and before anyone asks, yes I do mean when I think they are wrong. Of course, they don’t have to take notice of me!)

 

[Della]

I don’t think that was Chesterton. I think it was the Gloomy Dean.

GKC

No, it’s Chesterton who was the least gloomy person imaginable. His was not the message of “doom and gloom” but of joy in orthodoxy, in truth and solid realities more wonderful than all the fancies of men.

 

[GKC]

No, it’s Chesterton who was the least gloomy person imaginable. His was not the message of “doom and gloom” but of joy in orthodoxy, in truth and solid realities more wonderful than all the fancies of men.

I’m rarely (but not never) wrong on my man’s quotes. But if you’ve got a citation for that, I’ll check it. After 45 years of collecting Chesterton’s works, I have about everything printed, as by him, in one form or another, except the 2 collections of his DAILY NEWS columns, which go for around $1250. Those can wait.

Dean Inge is created with the “widower” quote, all over the internet, but that’s no guarantee, to be sure. Me, whenever I see a Chesterton quote given in places like this, I try to source it, to a specific page of a specific book, on my shelves. Sort of a hobby. I’ll try with this one, if you have a source in mind. Sprug’s index doesn’t have it, but that’s not definitive. Meanwhile, I’m sticking with Inge. If wrong, I’ll learn something.

GKC

 

[Della]

I’m rarely (but not never) wrong on my man’s quotes. But if you’ve got a citation for that, I’ll check it. After 45 years of collecting Chesterton’s works, I have about everything printed, as by him, in one form or another, except the 2 collections of his DAILY NEWS columns, which go for around $1250. Those can wait.

Dean Inge is created with the “widower” quote, all over the internet, but that’s no guarantee, to be sure. Me, whenever I see a Chesterton quote given in places like this, I try to source it, to a specific page of a specific book, on my shelves. Sort of a hobby. I’ll try with this one, if you have a source in mind. Sprug’s index doesn’t have it, but that’s not definitive. Meanwhile, I’m sticking with Inge. If wrong, I’ll learn something.

GKC

I had never heard of Dean Inge but I’d read and heard the quote in connection with Chesterton. After looking it up, I see it was Inge. So, I have learned something. :tiphat:

However, I don’t think Chesterton would disagree with Inge on this one. He wrote of moderns and our tendency to dismiss what we don’t know for what we think we know–because we blindly go along with whatever is the prevailing sentiment:

It is the vague modern who is not at all certain what is right who is most certain that Dante was wrong. The serious opponent of the Latin Church in history, even in the act of showing that it produced great infamies, must know that it produced great saints. It is the hard-headed stockbroker, who knows no history and believes no religion, who is, nevertheless, perfectly convinced that all these priests are knaves.

As I see it Chesterton is saying that dismissing the learning of our ancestors for what we think we know is bad philosophy that leads to bad theology, and bad theology is what is destroying the mainline churches whether they want to see it or not.

 

[GWright]

Sadly, this is yet another thread which, whether intentional or not, is kicking one who is down. What many people do not realize is that there are many conservative Anglo Catholics in the Episcopal Church, who are just as appalled as you are about the liberal developments in TEC. We stay in the Anglican Communion, working for a return to orthodoxy

Your determination and conviction to your denomination is very admirable.

But, you are on a hiding to nothing, at least in my opinion.

There will be no “return to orthodoxy” for TEC. How realistic (i.e exceptionally unlikely) is it to expect the government to come out and reverse a significant pro-gay decision? Eg, in the most extreme case, can you ever imagine a western government making homosexual acts illegal again?

I simply could not imagine that (or something similar) occurring - *not in a million years *- and so, equally, I dont think there is much hope for the restoration of orthodoxy (or what was called orthodoxy) in TEC.

From what I see, part of the problem is that TEC is, these days, informed and led by, secular society - a massive flaw they have in common with essentially all protestant denoms these days.

I understand that TEC recently announced a record low membership - so, the wages of the path they have chosen are already abundantly clear, despite the presence of good people like yourself working to try to save the denomination.

I do respect the way the Catholic Church has preserved Christian orthodoxy. Yet, the lack of a Magisterium does not always lead to ruin. The Eastern Orthodox seem to be doing just fine without the Pope.

Indeed, but they each have their own Patriarchs, which (in my understanding) are something like their own version of a Pope. Maybe not exactly the same, but certainly some kind of figurehead, reference point etc.

Just keep in mind, many Episcopalians are against the ordination of those in same sex relationships and are against blessing same sex unions.

Yes, but - given *no-one is in charge * (i.e no Pope) - it is (i) hardly surprising that different opinions surface and (ii) hardly surprising that no-one listens to others opinions and just does what they want.

This is typical of protestants today - nothing even resembling a unified belief or value system. With the greatest respect, individual protestant denominations are today little more than a series of loosely affiliated social clubs, than Christian Churches. The reason for them staying together are often down to reasons of financial survival and “old times sake” / tradition. It is not their beliefs that bind them together, in the same way as my beliefs bind me to every single other Catholic walking the planet.

The Church of Scotland is a great example of one of these rudderless, pointless, drifting, congregations of odds and ends. “Didn’t like the sermon at church today? No problem, just visit our sister church around the corner, where their belief on this point is the absolute polar opposite to ours. But remember, we are all still the CoS, right?”

Its just ridiculous.

While I respect those who choose to leave TEC or even the Anglican Communion altogether; I don’t think the answer for every conservative Episcopalian is to leave the Communion.** Each break further fractures the Body of Christ**.

Again, with respect, the bit in bold is not true. TEC members are not part of the body of Christ. That alone is the Catholic Church. If TEC members return to the Catholic Church, then thats a positive - they are building up the body of Christ. But, for as long as they stay away from the Catholic Church, they are separated from the body of Christ. Leaving the TEC for another protestant denom doesnt fracture, or otherwise affect it, one bit.

Remember, Christ prayed for the unity of his followers.

There are actually very few differences in the beliefs and practice of Catholics and Anglo Catholics.

Although I am no expert, I agree with you here.

So why not get on the right team? Better late than never!

Other than human sentiment, why stay to fight a losing battle among ruins of the TEC, when you could come home and be a part of the genuine body of Christ, the House of Israel, the Catholic Church?

The Anglican Communion is in crisis. We need more prayers and less ridicule.

The Anglican Communion is dead, they just havent realised it yet, because what few members are left are too busy arguing about their vastly different - and diverging - beliefs.

Nevertheless good luck to you. I hope you find your way to a Catholic Church, or the US Ordinariate, soon. I will say a prayer for the Christians like your good self who have been left isolated in a Church which draws its morality from whatever secular society dictates to it.

Take care!

 

[GKC]

I had never heard of Dean Inge but I’d read and heard the quote in connection with Chesterton. After looking it up, I see it was Inge. So, I have learned something. :tiphat:

However, I don’t think Chesterton would disagree with Inge on this one. He wrote of moderns and our tendency to dismiss what we don’t know for what we think we know–because we blindly go along with whatever is the prevailing sentiment:

As I see it Chesterton is saying that dismissing the learning of our ancestors for what we think we know is bad philosophy that leads to bad theology, and bad theology is what is destroying the mainline churches whether they want to see it or not.

I would not disagree as to the sentiment being one that Chesterton would certainly agree with; hence it gets attributed to him, from time to time. Same sort of thing happens with Lewis, on occasion.

Though he often disagreed with Dean Inge, (see “The Protestant Superstitions” in THE THING, pp 155-160, or “The New Theologian” in A MISCELLANY OF MEN, pp 215-224, 1st Amer. eds.each, for example), that particular phrase would fit with Chesterton’s philosophy.

Oh, and, as you likely know, your Chesterton quote, above, comes from the last chapter (XX) of HERETICS, p. 295.

GKC

 

[CMatt25]

The Episcopal church is seeking to “move into the 21st century”. With ongoing archeological finds and “reinterpretation” of history through the new findings, a deeper understanding of the developements of Christianity.

Also further understanding of psycology and sexuality has caused questions to be asked in relation to sexual minorities and the role of women in the Church as a whole.

The Episcopal church has not abandoned their Christian focus…they just do not embrace for the most part a “conservative” mindset…in their view their faith is not only informed and understood thru scripture and history…but through science, psycology and human rights.

Conservative Christians of course disagree with them…but in their minds and beliefs…they are being faithful custodians of Truth…in their understanding…Truth is ever unfolding and those biblical injunctions that more conservative believers see as “plain”…they see as cultural and historical mores and beliefs bound in a more “primitive” time and culture.

Good points Publisher. In my neck of the woods there are Christians in TEC, in parishes having Sat services like Catholics do. And 2 or three Sunday morning services. For instance one has traditional Sunday services as well as a Sat jazz service. Another a service with a Christian youth band, along with traditional services on Sunday as well as a service with acoustic guitar and piano on Sat. Lots of services where they worship Him even if not of the conservative mindset.

 

[CMatt25]

Publisher, I suppose that is a possible charitable defense of the intent of the Episcopal Church, USA. But you haven’t even attempted to explain the exceptional rate of decline, which is far greater than most other churches have experienced. Why not? Why have their numbers declined so much faster than other groups also in decline? Is there a pattern that can be discerned?

It was an exceptionally charitable defense. My :tiphat: to Publisher for it.

To your question, who knows. If TEC holds Christian truth and people walk, it wouldn’t be the first time people have walked away from Him. And declines in numbers are not limited to TEC. Also it is not unknown for Catholics, for instance, to not abide by every teaching of their faith and leave its full practice.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Again, with respect, the bit in bold is not true. TEC members are not part of the body of Christ. That alone is the Catholic Church.

By “Catholic Church” do you mean all the Apostolic Churches? Let’s not forget that our very own Catholic Church recognizes as part of the whole Body of Christ all Churches of Apostolic tradition and succession. While it may have specific issues in this latter regard with TEC, the fact that we have received en masse congregations of Anglican communities via the Personal Ordinariates demonstrates quite clearly that the wounds may be healed and the differences are reconcilable.

You also quoted Christ’s prayer for unity of the churches - a prayer which is quite relevant to this topic. While your staunch defense of Catholicism is respected, in the hope for the very unity that Christ himself prayed for shortly before his Great Passion, I hope we do not offend others by suggesting Catholicism alone is the Body of Christ. Catholicism has so much as professed otherwise.

 

[Della]

By “Catholic Church” do you mean all the Apostolic Churches? Let’s not forget that our very own Catholic Church recognizes as part of the whole Body of Christ all Churches of Apostolic tradition and succession. While it may have specific issues in this latter regard with TEC, the fact that we have received en masse congregations of Anglican communities via the Personal Ordinariates demonstrates quite clearly that the wounds may be healed and the differences are reconcilable.

You also quoted Christ’s prayer for unity of the churches - a prayer which is quite relevant to this topic. While your staunch defense of Catholicism is respected, in the hope for the very unity that Christ himself prayed for shortly before his Great Passion, I hope we do not offend others by suggesting Catholicism alone is the Body of Christ. Catholicism has so much as professed otherwise.

I agree with this correction and just wanted to add that by reason of their trinitarian baptism, recognized as valid by the Church, members of the TEC are members of Christ’s Body, although imperfectly joined to it by reason of their invalid priesthood and beliefs that differ from those of the Church.

I’d also like to say it would untrue, and therefore uncharitable, to pretend that the TEC, especially as it is today, is what Our Lord had in mind when he established his Church. He prayed for unity–unity in faith, in creed, in baptism and in mission. The TEC is not unified even among its leadership let alone its beliefs, for one can believe anything, live any lifestyle one chooses, and still be a member in good standing. It’s no kindness to say this isn’t true when it is. The TEC has my prayers–that it will take up the offer of the Anglican Ordinate and rejoin the Catholic Church. And while we have our dissenters and our problems (what institution doesn’t?) we have a central authority and a creed believed and taught, as well as the promise of infallibility. It’s why it has stood the test of time and culture, of war and civilizations come and gone, and why it will remain the same until Christ returns. These are simple facts not triumphalism. I have no trumpets playing in my head as I write this. I only have tears for our brethren stuck in a morass made by men who will not listen to sound theology but think they know better. Men never know better than God–it’s sad so many people haven’t yet learned this truth.

 

[manualman]

It was an exceptionally charitable defense. My :tiphat: to Publisher for it.

To your question, who knows. If TEC holds Christian truth and people walk, it wouldn’t be the first time people have walked away from Him. And declines in numbers are not limited to TEC. Also it is not unknown for Catholics, for instance, to not abide by every teaching of their faith and leave its full practice.

Indeed that’s why I tipped my own hat, if less literally.

Declines are certainly not unknown in catholicism as well, as you note. But I do find “who knows?” do be a poor conclusion. I think it IS productive to look for causes for observed effects. And yes, I think that applies inside catholicism as well. In fact, our most precipitous declines occur in parishes, dioceses and religious orders in which the worldview, mission and purpose that strongly mirror the “always be nice at all costs” mistake made by Anglican theologians starting a couple of generations ago. Conversely, the healthiest aspects of the catholic church today occur where the gospel is proclaimed as a recognition of our human sinfulness and a choice to accept Grace and forgiveness over the complacency of niceness and the temptations of this fallen world.

 

[CMatt25]

Indeed that’s why I tipped my own hat, if less literally.

Declines are certainly not unknown in catholicism as well, as you note. But I do find “who knows?” do be a poor conclusion. I think it IS productive to look for causes for observed effects. And yes, I think that applies inside catholicism as well. In fact, our most precipitous declines occur in parishes, dioceses and religious orders in which the worldview, mission and purpose that strongly mirror the “always be nice at all costs” mistake made by Anglican theologians starting a couple of generations ago. Conversely, the healthiest aspects of the catholic church today occur where the gospel is proclaimed as a recognition of our human sinfulness and a choice to accept Grace and forgiveness over the complacency of niceness and the temptations of this fallen world.

Actually my experience is that some of your declines could be attributed to not mirroring the less conservative elements within Anglicanism. But another topic.

Anyway I said “who knows” because reasons for declines in practice within any faith based community be it TEC, Catholicism, or what have you, probably vary in some degree with the individuals.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Again, with respect, the bit in bold is not true. TEC members are not part of the body of Christ. That alone is the Catholic Church.

GWright,
You are so quick to condemn the whole of the Episcopal Church, that you are speaking against the teaching of your own Church by saying TEC is not part of the body of Christ.

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: "Therefore . . . we are members one of another."72 Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body."73

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."81 "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."82

790 Believers who respond to God’s word and become members of Christ’s Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ’s death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221

791 The body’s unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ’s Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him,**** and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."224

As the Catechism states, “When one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him.”

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Actually my experience is that some of your declines could be attributed to not mirroring the less conservative elements within Anglicanism. But another topic.

Anyway I said “who knows” because reasons for declines in practice within any faith based community be it TEC, Catholicism, or what have you, probably vary in some degree with the individuals.

CMatt25,

I had a discussion with my Rector in which he said that it is quite possible that the liberal positions may lead not only to a decline in membership; but a decline in financial support as well. Once endowments are exhausted, it is quite possible that the liberals will find themselves without funding. If TEC falls apart financially, because of the liberal choices, then let it be so.

Anna

 

[Indiana_Jones]

CMatt25,

I had a discussion with my Rector in which he said that it is quite possible that the liberal positions may lead not only to a decline in membership; but a decline in financial support as well. Once endowments are exhausted, it is quite possible that the liberals will find themselves without funding…

That does seem like a likely outcome, considering that the national church has spent so much money lately in litigation.

Edit: not trying to derail us. I just know that my old Episcopalian parish had LOTS of giving to the parish & diocese because people wanted to support pro-life issues, food for the homeless, missions work, church planting, and our music program and school. Those same people are not interested in financially supporting the national church’s lawsuits, pro-abortion causes, or these sorts of things.

 

[Anna_Scott]

That does seem like a likely outcome, considering that the national church has spent so much money lately.

Indiana,
It very well could. There are a number of lawsuits going on. I truly believe God will take care of the situation one way or another. I’m not ready to jump ship yet. Though if my conservative Rector leaves, and a liberal replaces him; I will be looking for another Parish.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Edit: not trying to derail us. I just know that my old Episcopalian parish had LOTS of giving to the parish & diocese because people wanted to support pro-life issues, food for the homeless, missions work, church planting, and our music program and school. Those same people are not interested in financially supporting the national church’s lawsuits, pro-abortion causes, or these sorts of things.

Indiana,

Very true. That’s precisely why many of us mark our tithe as “Rector’s Discretionary Fund,” to keep the money from going to the diocese to support such things.

Peace,
Anna