Episcopal Church: What happened?

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Interesting, though in this period not really surprizing. On a world wide level same-sex marriage is really the issue that becomes a focal point in regards to religion. In fact its now an issue at the level of the UN.

That said this is an issue which involves mankind and Christianity. While perhaps we can state its rose in some ways in the Episcopal and Lutheran Church. Its also made its way to the arena of Catholics who have left to start their own catholic church etc. And all areas of mankind. No one is exempt here.

There’s a small window of opportunity left in the political/social arena for postive change in Christianity to occur and turn back from the errors which now confront mankind, and more important the USA and West.

At this point IMHO its more important to unite on what we do believe are the correct moral values in Christianity. In many ways we see this such as in the Walk for Life a week or so ago. Or with all the Catholic US Bishops and other’s now speaking out.

However, I view the Episcopal and Lutheran Church’s differently than I suppose many do. There’s a close relation to the Catholic Church and hope remains alive.

During difficult periods of time its imperative to work together. One cannot stand in a hole and argue about how they arrived in the hole. So a conscious effort to get out of the hole is required.
Another point to be made, Bishop Schori should not be occupying the Office of Bishop or Priest by virtue of her gender. The same goes for the women that occupy the office of priest in the Episcopal Church or the office of pastor in the ELCA.
 
What happened is all too clear. The Anglican Catholic Church in America was co-opted by its secular members and attempted to be all things to all people. The present state is predictable - it is now is engaged in an public and messy fight, regrettably and Anglican tradition, and publicly stands for nothing to everyone, (Orthodox Anglicans excepted). Its survival is questionable. If my Rector,a conservative Anglican in the finest Benedictine tradition, were to be replaced by a “liberal” (read apostate), I would look elsewhere for an Orthodox Catholic communion.

The endowments will soon be exhausted. At which point the “liberals” will find another institution to infiltrate and then destroy - that’s their style. Whether there will be anything left to save once they are done is an open question.

FYI: The latest census states that those who merely identify themselves to be Episcopalians is now less than 200K. Technically, the ECA is now a sect and not a denomination.

Take heart. The Catholic Church in Great Britain, i.e. England, Scotland & Wales, was wiped off the map after Rome fell in 476. The Anglican communion was started by Benedictine missionary monks from Ireland that survived the mainland destruction. The story goes that the Benedictine missionaries were evangelizing the west coast of England heading south when they encountered a group of Franciscan missionaries from Rome on the same coast heading north. The group met up around 1000 something, probably shared the eleventh century equivalent of a few Guinness beers, and worked together in harmony to successfully re-establish the Holy Catholic Church on the British mainland.
(The date is questionable, the beers very questionable).

Point being, we have had it worse.

In regard to the Queens authority - I posed this question to my Rector. My understanding is that the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury is selected by the British parliament, and presented by the PM for the assent of HRBM. Never has the Crown refused a candidate so pressented, let alone revoked that assent once given. I believe the Crown still has the authority to remove the Arch-Bishop but, like curtailing the free press in the UK, “it simply would not be done”. However, I am personally disappointed that QE II did not do a little back room arm twisting to address the mess. It is not my place as an American, and a commoner at that, to presume to advise HRBM, but if given leave so to do, I would remind her that were it not for that good Episcopalian FDR I would need to write my petition in German.

This leaves the question of why the council of Anglican Bishops has not been convened to address the cancer on the Church. The answer stems more from tradition than it does from lack of authority. The last time the Anglican Church was faced with a challenge of this magnitude it involved the Methodists. It may come to a shock to many, it did to me, that the Methodists are not a product of the reformation - they were a branch of the Anglican communion until they were kicked out.

At the time of John and Charles Wesley, both devout Anglicans, the High Anglican Catholic Church had become so secular that one of our prominent Bishops publicly stated that, “he did not believe in God” and the seven Blessed Sacraments were rarely celebrated. John and Charles took it upon themselves to fill the liturgical gap and not only celebrate the Sacraments but instruct the common populous in sound doctrine. The latter was done using hymns since books were at that time beyond the financial means of their common flock. This accounts for the numerous and beautiful hymns attributed to the Wesleys.

The point is, following this shocking treatment of the Methodists, our very own, in the 17th century there has been and may be a tendency not to be “reactionary” in regard to the current crisis. However, with instant communication in the modern world the “hunker down until the storm blows over” mentality that served so well in the past, deserves further sober reflection.

It is very easy for me to offer criticism from the sidelines. I hope that wiser and cooler heads will act and act soon.

If there ever was a time for the five orthodox communions of the Holy Catholic Church to unite as a body, it is now. We have enemies within and without. We Anglicans have been seriously wounded but still can muster XXXIX cannons for the fight. Let us work together and agree to stop the fratricidal sniping for 500 years or so - I am convinced that our differences are rooted more in geography than theology.

Pray for the Church.

PX,
Tom:thumbsup:
 
This leaves the question of why the council of Anglican Bishops has not been convened to address the cancer on the Church.
Tom, a well-written post!

I have read through it a couple of times, and somehow always end up coming back to the one sentence quoted above.

Could it not be argued rather simply that the Anglican Bishops themselves are the cancer, or at the very least, now are inflicted with this cancer? Who were empowered to make the changes that weakened the priesthood through irregular ordinations? Who are empowered to continue to make declarations of faith that are inconsistent with the Catholic heritage of their church?

We continue to pray for TEC and especially for its orthodox faithful (Anna in particular). Meanwhile, there is now a means by which such faithful can return to their Catholic roots and heritage. One would hope that the hierarchs of TEC would take note and ponder this development.

It is funny how many are easy to criticize the Catholic Church and its ability to maintain consistency of doctrine and discipline through its more centralized structure. Yet it is this very feature of the Catholic Church, and the consistency of its message and adherence to fundamental beliefs and practices, that has protected us Catholics from similar developments. Let’s face it - there are some Catholics who wouldn’t mind going down some of these paths.

Yet this is also an example of where politics and religions should never be mixed. The ability to maintain a common doctrine and discipline in the Anglican Church abroad seems impossible, as allegiance to the Crown cannot be enforced. And even if there were some creative means to create a formal alliance and allegiance to the Bishop of Canterbury (or, say, a synod of Anglican Bishops in the UK), the Church of England has not shown particular strength in this area and has not provided a firm example of adherence to Catholic principles either.
 
What happened is all too clear. The Anglican Catholic Church in America was co-opted by its secular members and attempted to be all things to all people. The present state is predictable - it is now is engaged in an public and messy fight, regrettably and Anglican tradition, and publicly stands for nothing to everyone, (Orthodox Anglicans excepted). Its survival is questionable. If my Rector,a conservative Anglican in the finest Benedictine tradition, were to be replaced by a “liberal” (read apostate), I would look elsewhere for an Orthodox Catholic communion.

The endowments will soon be exhausted. At which point the “liberals” will find another institution to infiltrate and then destroy - that’s their style. Whether there will be anything left to save once they are done is an open question.

FYI: The latest census states that those who merely identify themselves to be Episcopalians is now less than 200K. Technically, the ECA is now a sect and not a denomination.

Take heart. The Catholic Church in Great Britain, i.e. England, Scotland & Wales, was wiped off the map after Rome fell in 476. The Anglican communion was started by Benedictine missionary monks from Ireland that survived the mainland destruction. The story goes that the Benedictine missionaries were evangelizing the west coast of England heading south when they encountered a group of Franciscan missionaries from Rome on the same coast heading north. The group met up around 1000 something, probably shared the eleventh century equivalent of a few Guinness beers, and worked together in harmony to successfully re-establish the Holy Catholic Church on the British mainland.
(The date is questionable, the beers very questionable).

Point being, we have had it worse.

In regard to the Queens authority - I posed this question to my Rector. My understanding is that the Arch-Bishop of Canterbury is selected by the British parliament, and presented by the PM for the assent of HRBM. Never has the Crown refused a candidate so pressented, let alone revoked that assent once given. I believe the Crown still has the authority to remove the Arch-Bishop but, like curtailing the free press in the UK, “it simply would not be done”. However, I am personally disappointed that QE II did not do a little back room arm twisting to address the mess. It is not my place as an American, and a commoner at that, to presume to advise HRBM, but if given leave so to do, I would remind her that were it not for that good Episcopalian FDR I would need to write my petition in German.

This leaves the question of why the council of Anglican Bishops has not been convened to address the cancer on the Church. The answer stems more from tradition than it does from lack of authority. The last time the Anglican Church was faced with a challenge of this magnitude it involved the Methodists. It may come to a shock to many, it did to me, that the Methodists are not a product of the reformation - they were a branch of the Anglican communion until they were kicked out.

At the time of John and Charles Wesley, both devout Anglicans, the High Anglican Catholic Church had become so secular that one of our prominent Bishops publicly stated that, “he did not believe in God” and the seven Blessed Sacraments were rarely celebrated. John and Charles took it upon themselves to fill the liturgical gap and not only celebrate the Sacraments but instruct the common populous in sound doctrine. The latter was done using hymns since books were at that time beyond the financial means of their common flock. This accounts for the numerous and beautiful hymns attributed to the Wesleys.

The point is, following this shocking treatment of the Methodists, our very own, in the 17th century there has been and may be a tendency not to be “reactionary” in regard to the current crisis. However, with instant communication in the modern world the “hunker down until the storm blows over” mentality that served so well in the past, deserves further sober reflection.

It is very easy for me to offer criticism from the sidelines. I hope that wiser and cooler heads will act and act soon.

If there ever was a time for the five orthodox communions of the Holy Catholic Church to unite as a body, it is now. We have enemies within and without. We Anglicans have been seriously wounded but still can muster XXXIX cannons for the fight. Let us work together and agree to stop the fratricidal sniping for 500 years or so - I am convinced that our differences are rooted more in geography than theology.

Pray for the Church.

PX,
Tom:thumbsup:
I am occasionally bemused by your capitalization of what appear to be references to Anglican provinces or jurisdictions, but are, I suspect, something else. There is an
“Anglican Catholic Church”, a part of the Anglican Continuum, but I suspect that is not what you are referring to. Are you referring to TEC? Similarly, the High Anglican Catholic Church (around the time of the Wesley’s) I suspect to be speaking of the Church of England.

You are mistaken as to the membership in TEC, if you think it to be less than 200,00. It is certainly less than the 2 million that TEC routinely claims, but not 90% less. The figure I see most often among the more reputable Episcopalians is around 1.7 million. Or somewhat less, and continuing southward.

I am unsure what council of Anglican Bishops you might have in mind.What is it? Who convenes it?

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus-Catholicus
 
Comments? Thoughts?

This subject, IMHO, would make a very good thesis for a sociologist or a religious historian. I often wondered why universities like Harvard and Yale, whose founding documents state boldly that the purpose of the founders was to establish and teach the truth of God written in the Holy Scriptures … became exactly the opposite and in fact oppose the Bible that the founders loved.

It has happened again. Before our eyes, in this generation, we have seen the emasculation of a former bastion of Christianity. What was the seed? Who allowed it to be watered and to grow to the point that it squelched the truth at every opportunity… and finally morphed into an entirely unrecognizable institution.

I would appreciate it if the Catholic friends and neighbors that visit here would refrain from Protestant bashing;) … or starting a conversation about how Protestants will be Protestants … Thnx in advance. This social trend affects all of our families.

I attended a vibrant beautiful old ivy covered greystone Episcopal Church, St Stephens, Sewickley PA in the mid 80’s. I remember the Pastor at the time, Rev John Guest, in his winsome Liver-puddelian accent stating that if the US Episcopal Communion decided to ordain gays and lesbians that he would leave the church. Well it finally happened … and he took most of the congregation with him to establish a new place of worship.
The Episcopal Communion on the African Continent has completely separated itself from the US Episcopal Church for the above reasons, among others.

I recently read this short statement describing the decline and fall of the US Episcopal Church.

"When I first became an Episcopalian years ago, a friend facetiously told me that I had
joined the best church that money could buy.”
In fact, another wag observed that the Episcopal Church is the Cadillac
of American Christianity’’ and the ‘‘Chevis Regal of
Protestantism.’’

These attempts at humor, based on social and intellectual snobbery, have grown a bit
stale in the ensuing years, as the stately and venerable American version of the
Church of England has experienced wide-spread decline in numbers, theological
conviction, and social and political influence.
The church that once was called “the Republican Party at prayer” has
now become little more than a coalition of special interests and would probably
be more accurately termed the “Democratic Convention in 1988 at prayer.”

With bishops who declare the Bible to be little more than the prejudices of a group
of misogynist, homophobic
males, the Apostle Paul to have been nothing but a frustrated homosexual, and
the Resurrection of Jesus Christ to be nothing but the rattling of old bones, it
is little wonder that the Episcopal Church in the United States has lost over a
million members since 1970. As if these “profound theological insights” were
not enough, the American branch of Anglicanism now has liturgies for the marriage
of two persons of the same gender and refuses to expect clergy to live morally
pure lives.

This sad state of affairs has prompted some Episcopalians to seek a safe harbor outside
the Anglican Communion in which to live out their faith. Not surprisingly, some
have elected to leave the denomination for other more conservative, Protestant
groups. Still others have ‘‘swam the Tiber’’ for membership in the Roman
Catholic Church. A few others have formed “independent Episcopal”
congregations, and yet more have formed new ‘‘Anglican Churches’’ that
are in communion with neither Canterbury or the Episcopal Church in the U.S.A.
Sadly, some have simply dropped their practice of the faith altogether.

Continued:
antiochian.org/Orthodox_Church_Who_What_Where_Why/Why_In_The_World_Would_An_Episcopalian_Become_Orthodox.htm
Episcopalians and Anglicans have always been the most liberal denomination on morals. They were the first to allow contraception.

(Side note: I thought Episcopalians were always traditionally Democrat. Because weren’t the liturgical churches Democrat and the non-liturgical ones Republican until about 1960? Or is my history just way off? :o)
 
Episcopalians and Anglicans have always been the most liberal denomination on morals. They were the first to allow contraception.

(Side note: I thought Episcopalians were always traditionally Democrat. Because weren’t the liturgical churches Democrat and the non-liturgical ones Republican until about 1960? Or is my history just way off? :o)
Your observations are completely opposite of my experience. Every Episcopalian I know are (i) deeply religious, (ii) very traditional in terms of personal values and (iii) conservative in their political thinking.

That said, none of them are happy with the direction in which their church in the US has gone, especially with respect to moral theology and discipline of clergy.

I frequently attend educational events at the Berkeley Divinity School at Yale. Despite the affiliated school’s reputation for liberal thought, everyone I have ever met at these events are, IMO, consistently conservative.

It is very puzzling to me, an outsider who admittedly knows these members more than their church, exactly how their church has morphed into something very different than its people.

Any insights from the inside (that is, from practicing Anglicans)?
 
Your observations are completely opposite of my experience. Every Episcopalian I know are (i) deeply religious, (ii) very traditional in terms of personal values and (iii) conservative in their political thinking.

That said, none of them are happy with the direction in which their church in the US has gone, especially with respect to moral theology and discipline of clergy.

I frequently attend educational events at the Berkeley Divinity School at Yale. Despite the affiliated school’s reputation for liberal thought, everyone I have ever met at these events are, IMO, consistently conservative.

It is very puzzling to me, an outsider who admittedly knows these members more than their church, exactly how their church has morphed into something very different than its people.

Any insights from the inside (that is, from practicing Anglicans)?
How then were the liberals able to hijack the Episcopal Church USA?
 
How then were the liberals able to hijack the Episcopal Church USA?
I’m asking the same question! This church seems to have morphed into something very different than its people (at least the ones I know) …
 
Episcopalians and Anglicans have always been the most liberal denomination on morals. They were the first to allow contraception.

(Side note: I thought Episcopalians were always traditionally Democrat. Because weren’t the liturgical churches Democrat and the non-liturgical ones Republican until about 1960? Or is my history just way off? :o)
The Episcopal Church, historically, was referred to as the Republican party at prayer.

Not accurate over the past 40 years.

GKC
 
And how did that come to be? I for one am genuinely interested …
All the conservatives stayed laymen, while the liberals became the clergy. 😃

But seriously, in 1988 the ELCA formed as a merger of the LCA (Lutheran Church in America - the one my parents grew up in), the ALC (American Lutheran Church), and the AELC (Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches). The LCA was the liberal, liturgical, and had all the Lutheran Swedish people in America. The ALC was the more conservative branch of the mainline Lutheran churches, and was more pietistic and had the Norwegian Lutherans. The AELC was a break away group from the conservative LC-MS because they thought the LC-MS was too conservative. So when they merged, the LCA kind of took over and brought out its liberal side in the ELCA.
 
… in 1988 the ELCA formed as a merger of the LCA (Lutheran Church in America - the one my parents grew up in), the ALC (American Lutheran Church), and the AELC (Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches). The LCA was the liberal, liturgical, and had all the Lutheran Swedish people in America. The ALC was the more conservative branch of the mainline Lutheran churches, and was more pietistic and had the Norwegian Lutherans. The AELC was a break away group from the conservative LC-MS because they thought the LC-MS was too conservative. So when they merged, the LCA kind of took over and brought out its liberal side in the ELCA.
Ugh! :confused:
 
As a former member of TEC I began to see a radical change in the 70’s when the new Book of Common Prayer came out. I don’t say the new BCP had anything to do with the swing to the left, but it certainly opened the floodgates for every disaffected cause within the Church to come to the fore–just as it did in the Catholic Church. For years the liberal left was running the show in the RCC, as well. It’s only now that it’s begun to move back towards the traditional side of the aisle. In the TEC, though there is no one in power to stop the swing left, so it’s continued unabated and will continue unless and until the seminaries start putting out traditional ministers, whic I don’t see happening any time soon.
 
As a former member of TEC I began to see a radical change in the 70’s when the new Book of Common Prayer came out. I don’t say the new BCP had anything to do with the swing to the left, but it certainly opened the floodgates for every disaffected cause within the Church to come to the fore–just as it did in the Catholic Church. For years the liberal left was running the show in the RCC, as well. It’s only now that it’s begun to move back towards the traditional side of the aisle. In the TEC, though there is no one in power to stop the swing left, so it’s continued unabated and will continue unless and until the seminaries start putting out traditional ministers, whic I don’t see happening any time soon.
I do think the reform of the liturgy, leading to the 79 book, had a lot to do with it.

GKC
 
I do think the reform of the liturgy, leading to the 79 book, had a lot to do with it.

GKC
I think the reform was merely a symptom of a movement long in existence but just coming into power at the time. I did a research paper on the reformed BOCP for a college course and experienced the attitudes behind it. It wasn’t motivated by a spirit of greater worship, I can affirm that, but of one of renuding it of the sacred for the banal and common, pulling the teeth of the Christian message. The same thing happened in the Catholic Church which is only now trying to reverse that trend. Like turning the Titanic to avoid an iceberg, some ships are not going to do it as well as others and will sink in the effort.
 
I think the reform was merely a symptom of a movement long in existence but just coming into power at the time. I did a research paper on the reformed BOCP for a college course and experienced the attitudes behind it. It wasn’t motivated by a spirit of greater worship, I can affirm that, but of one of renuding it of the sacred for the banal and common, pulling the teeth of the Christian message. The same thing happened in the Catholic Church which is only now trying to reverse that trend. Like turning the Titanic to avoid an iceberg, some ships are not going to do it as well as others and will sink in the effort.
Generally, I agree.

GKC
 
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