Episcopal Committee Is Working on Gay Rite

[Third_Day]

=Dale_M;6898436]I merely pointed out that each of us decides what is good.

Are you saying that if I decided that raping a child is good then it is “good?”

If I decided that aborting a child is good then it is “good?”

However, some of us are right and some of us are wrong.

Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

You follow the Church because you believe it is right. Another person may disagree with the Church. But both you and that other person is deciding what is good.

You have the freedom to be wrong but you do not have the right to be wrong. Rights come from God. I have the freedom to kill my neighbor but I do not have the right to kill my neighbor.

Our conscience must be properly formed. This is why Christ established His Church so that we can properly form our conscience based on the teaching authority of that Church which teaches us the moral law that is based on biblical truths and on the traditional understanding of those truths.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Makes me think of the Ed Wood film “Glen or Glenda.” Wow, now that was hilarious stuff!

Cross-dressers are mostly heterosexual men who have a compulsion to dress like women. They don’t need a separate rite.

 

[1holycatholic]

I think what 1holycatholic means is that, while it may look like marriage, there really is no such thing as same-sex marriage. We can *call *it marriage all we want (or don’t want). That doesn’t make it marriage, because:

1. marriage was created by God and God makes the rules
2. the necessary “matter” for a marriage sacrament is one man and one woman

…the closest anyone can really get is a civil and/or religious bond that* looks* like marriage and may even be called marriage in some places. But it won’t be a marriage.

It’s like calling an apple an orange. It’s still an apple. Calling it something else did not make it take on the essential properties of an orange.

 

[CMatt25]

So there is no truth, just a bunch of individual perceptions on the truth. Am I reading this wrong?

Yes I believe you are. I’m not at all certain anyone has said there is no truth. Although I too could have missed something someone else said. But Dale hasn’t said there is no truth to my knowledge. Rich is talking about faith. And I’m doing the same. I will never understand why some have such difficulty understanding the difference between faith and belief vs 100% absolute certain knowledge. St Paul even said we walk by faith. Not by sight.

Perhaps it has something to do with the human psyche, inclination, or desire, to want to be right about everything all the time. And to think we know for certain more than the next person. I dunno.

But anyway God bless you on your lifelong journey of faith and peace be with you always until He, Whom we Christians believe is the Truth as He in Jn 14:6 called Himself, comes again.

 

[CMatt25]

i wonder what Bible readings they are including. i’d like to volunteer to help on that one. may i suggest:

Leviticus 18:22
Leviticus 20:13
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Romans 1:24-32

TEC isn’t sola scriptura nor are they literalists on everything we read in Scripture. They use their minds for reasoning to. Probably with a dash or more of love, tolerance, and non judging mixed in. But if you truly want to learn about a viewpoint not in line with yours, you can do a lot of research online to learn something about how some of the more liberal denominations defend their beliefs. About how they may interpret a verse differently than you do. If you ever get a chance to actually listen to Episcopal Bishop Robinson speak (I heard him once on CSpan) he does an inspiring and good job explaining it. And yes I know the Church does all your interpreting for you and that’s fine if that’s how you want to do it and how you believe.

The marriage for procreation argument doesn’t hold because there are plenty of marriages ordained by God where no procreating occurs. Nor bother with a child needs a mother and father. Plenty of children either as a result of death or through some other reason are raised by single parents.

God bless on your journey and peace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

But if a couple marries and discovers they are childless, barren, unable to procreate, this is not against the natural law. They were born with the potential, the biology to procreate, but for whatever reason they cannot now have children. Their nature is male and female and their biological potential is affirming the godly state of sexuality. Homosexuality goes against everything the natural law demonstrates as normal and godly. How we can be having the conversation about two men sodomizing each other as holy let alone permissible in God’s eyes, I’ll never know.

Gene Robinson’s views are vile as are his own personal life social antics. The man played an instrumental role in the breakdown of the Anglican communion and his reasoning is modernistic tripe—a secular-valued brand of the new Christology and a sad, pathetic vision of the human relationship with God. I am blown away that anyone would give him the time of day.

We can sit here and look at the marriage debate and say, ‘well the Bible prohibitions against homosexuality were barbaric, backwards, and they didn’t understand the gay lifestyle the way we enlightened 21st Century folks do. They saw women as property and they didn’t understand sexuality as we do. Gays are born this way and have no choice. They’re, in fact, made to be gay so it’s a Godly estate.’ If we want to go down that road, why isn’t it just as healthy to raise a child in a plural marriage with two women and a man? What’s wrong with that? Or how about raising a child in a commune where free sex is exchanged between partners? Or why even have marriage at all? Where does the modern rationalization for this stuff end? The slipperly-slope argument is not cliche, tired, or thin. It makes plenty of sense. And it will indeed happen. There is always an argument that sick behavior is innate or unavoidable. The Catholics are dead-on right about gay marriage and I consider it one of their strengths as a religion to combat it morally.

TEC isn’t sola scriptura nor are they literalists on everything we read in Scripture. They use their minds for reasoning to. Probably with a dash or more of love, tolerance, and non judging mixed in. But if you truly want to learn about a viewpoint not in line with yours, you can do a lot of research online to learn something about how some of the more liberal denominations defend their beliefs. About how they may interpret a verse differently than you do. If you ever get a chance to actually listen to Episcopal Bishop Robinson speak (I heard him once on CSpan) he does an inspiring and good job explaining it. And yes I know the Church does all your interpreting for you and that’s fine if that’s how you want to do it and how you believe.

The marriage for procreation argument doesn’t hold because there are plenty of marriages ordained by God where no procreating occurs. Nor bother with a child needs a mother and father. Plenty of children either as a result of death or through some other reason are raised by single parents.

God bless on your journey and peace.

 

[cecilia97]

Glad I didn’t put wrong words in your mouth.

 

[CMatt25]

But if a couple marries and discovers they are childless, barren, unable to procreate, this is not against the natural law. They were born with the potential, the biology to procreate, but for whatever reason they cannot now have children.

We can sit here and look at the marriage debate and say, ‘well the Bible prohibitions against homosexuality were barbaric, backwards, and they didn’t understand the gay lifestyle the way we enlightened 21st Century folks do. They saw women as property and they didn’t understand sexuality as we do. Gays are born this way and have no choice. They’re, in fact, made to be gay so it’s a Godly estate.’ If we want to go down that road, why isn’t it just as healthy to raise a child in a plural marriage with two women and a man? What’s wrong with that?

Gurney, God must have His reasons for having made such couples unable to procreate I guess. There’s Scripture Matt 19:12 maybe, that addresses at least some men being born unable to do so.

I’ve been in discussion on the forum with one of our Mormon sisters who as a Mormon kept bringing up the govt interfering with marriage in her religion. I’m not certain if she was referring to plurals but I guess maybe ask her about the healthiness of that if that’s what she was objecting to the govt interfering with. Peace to ya my brother Gurney and God bless ya on your faith journey!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well I’m at peace right now. Two days in a row we’ve beaten the Dodgers and the Padres are down in the 6th right now. We’re getting closer to taking first place in the NL West. If the Giants just “get into” the playoffs this year, Gurney is a happy man!

Will you quit draggin’ your feet now and go get that cat already! Quit praying and start adopting, dude! :thumbsup:

Gurney, God must have His reasons for having made such couples unable to procreate I guess. There’s Scripture Matt 19:12 maybe, that addresses at least some men being born unable to do so.

I’ve been in discussion on the forum with one of our Mormon sisters who as a Mormon kept bringing up the govt interfering with marriage in her religion. I’m not certain if she was referring to plurals but I guess maybe ask her about the healthiness of that if that’s what she was objecting to the govt interfering with. Peace to ya my brother Gurney and God bless ya on your faith journey!

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

TEC isn’t sola scriptura nor are they literalists on everything we read in Scripture. They use their minds for reasoning to.

I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the Catholic “tri-legged support” is Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium whereas the Episcopalians rely on Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

 

[GKC]

I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the Catholic “tri-legged support” is Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium whereas the Episcopalians rely on Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

That’s the Anglican trio, attributed to Hooker.

GKC

 

[Soldier_X]

Makes me think of the Ed Wood film “Glen or Glenda.” Wow, now that was hilarious stuff!

Dude…now I’m gonna be thinking about that for the rest of the evening.

 

[Soldier_X]

I may be wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the Catholic “tri-legged support” is Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium whereas the Episcopalians rely on Scripture, Tradition, and Reason.

This is true. That’s our “Big Three.” Sadly, however, they are becoming a relic of the past. Scripture is ignored, Tradition is scorned, and as for Reason…anyone with reason would not make such an effort to alienate millions of believers in this country and worldwide. Sigh.

 

[Dale_M]

If I decided that aborting a child is good then it is “good?”

No, I am not. Although some people may decide that is acceptable, given their understanding of the world.

Who decides who is right and who is wrong?

We each do - including yourself. You have decided, given your understanding of the world, that it is right to let the Church provide guidance in faith and morals. That is entirely reasonable. But it is still a decision you have made, and continue to make every day.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Scripture, Tradition, Reason may be the Anglican ethos but I think the Episcopal triad is now secularism, tradition with secular filters, and lawsuits…

This is true. That’s our “Big Three.” Sadly, however, they are becoming a relic of the past. Scripture is ignored, Tradition is scorned, and as for Reason…anyone with reason would not make such an effort to alienate millions of believers in this country and worldwide. Sigh.

 

[Dale_M]

1. marriage was created by God and God makes the rules
2. the necessary “matter” for a marriage sacrament is one man and one woman

…the closest anyone can really get is a civil and/or religious bond that* looks* like marriage and may even be called marriage in some places. But it won’t be a marriage

Yes, the confusion comes from the use of the word “marriage” to describe both a religious practice and a civil contract. I wonder if governments should stop using the word “marriage.” Instead of issuing marriage licenses, it could issue licenses of civil union. Then, after registering the civil union, if someone wanted a (religious) marriage, they could go to their religious institution for that.

In the US, it is already possible to get a religious marriage without a marriage license from the government. This simply means that the government will not provide the legal benefits and rights to the couple that would be granted to officially registered couples. But they would still be married in the eyes of God.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Some conservatives have tried to skirt and sidestep the gay marriage agenda saying they’re in favor of “civil unions.” It seems a cop out to me. A serious Christian should be uncompromising in this area—civil unions and marriage are completely off limits for homosexuals, period.

Yes, the confusion comes from the use of the word “marriage” to describe both a religious practice and a civil contract. I wonder if governments should stop using the word “marriage.” Instead of issuing marriage licenses, it could issue licenses of civil union. Then, after registering the civil union, if someone wanted a (religious) marriage, they could go to their religious institution for that.

In the US, it is already possible to get a religious marriage without a marriage license from the government. This simply means that the government will not provide the legal benefits and rights to the couple that would be granted to officially registered couples. But they would still be married in the eyes of God.

 

[CMatt25]

Well I’m at peace right now. Two days in a row we’ve beaten the Dodgers and the Padres are down in the 6th right now. We’re getting closer to taking first place in the NL West. If the Giants just “get into” the playoffs this year, Gurney is a happy man!

Will you quit draggin’ your feet now and go get that cat already! Quit praying and start adopting, dude! :thumbsup:

San Fran is **that **close! :bigyikes: Wow I don’t follow NL all that closely! And you even won All Star game for 1st time in a decade and a half. You could get homefield in the Series Gurney! :bowdown2: Our Catholic sister Nancy Pelosi must be at peace too! :yup:

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Dude…ya had me, man! You had me! I was lovin’ this post…all the way until you had to mention two words that I find highly objectionable: Nancy + Pelosi…

I can HARDLY WAIT for November! LOL

Yep, the Padres lost tonight and we beat the Dodgers again so we’re only 1.5 games out of first place. I hope we don’t blow it, after all—my Giants have done it plenty of times before! I hope we can beat L.A. tomorrow but I doubt we’ll sweep. I think Kershaw’s pitching is about as good as Cain’s but Cain is snake-bit with the run support, God bless him…

Nancy Pelosi? Sister? yeeeeeeesh.:hypno:
I end my prayers with “and deliver us from Nancy!”

San Fran is **that **close! :bigyikes: Wow I don’t follow NL all that closely! And you even won All Star game for 1st time in a decade and a half. You could get homefield in the Series Gurney! :bowdown2: Our Catholic sister Nancy Pelosi must be at peace too! :yup:

 

[Soldier_X]

Scripture, Tradition, Reason may be the Anglican ethos but I think the Episcopal triad is now secularism, tradition with secular filters, and lawsuits…

Yep. And the leadership is insane to keep going down this road - and LIKING it. Giving the proverbial finger to anyone who even dares to say “Your All-Holy-Most-Infallibleness-Super-Perfection Presiding Bishop, should we possibly maybe slightly consider slowing down just a teeny bit and reconsidering, since we’ve made 99% of Christians in the world extremely mad at us?”

"NO - you are a bigot who hates everyone and lives in the past! We’ll sue you and take your property!"

Sigh.

So we’re ordaining & consecrating lesbians, giving the Eucharist to dogs, and writing innovative “marriage” liturgies that contradict the clear teachings of Scripture. A local parish out here has removed the Confession of Sin from the liturgy since no one is a sinner any more. We’re running out of Sacraments to desecrate and liturgies to ruin. We’re running out of ways to join our voices with the mockers at the Cross who taunted our Lord. ACNA needs to get a viable parish within 45 minutes of my home.