Episcopal Communion at a Funeral

[jamesclaude]

Journeyman:

All,

Thanks for the responses. Very helpful!

Couple questions though------

Would there be any reason to approach the Episcopal minister for a blessing? He/she is not an ordained minister of the Catholic Church so as a Catholic, it wouldn’t seem appropriate to ask for a blessing. Thoughts?

Your ecumenical skills are outweighed by your shopping list of sins. Even the current Pope prays with leaders of other faiths.

I’ve been on here for barely two weeks, and the most interesting thing I’ve noticed throughout is how most RC members are really caught up in Canon Law and a “slide rule” for sins.

I thought this was all hearsay from the past, but it seems to alive and well - to the obvious delight of many.

I’m now better at understanding from whence the infamous “Catholic Guilt” is derived and learned.

I had previously believed the Church of Christ denomination to be the most intense about believing that “they’re the only Ones” , but I’m now convinced that besides them, many Catholics hold this belief to be dear, also.

I’m a non-catholic guest on here - and hey - that’s how it is. I’ll cheerfully respect those views.

So, to answer your questions, if you know the chapter and verse of whatever sin it is for an Episcopal priest ( yeah, that’s what they are - like it or not ) to bless you, then by all means run away.

If you don’t know chapter and verse of whatever degree of sin that might impose, then just don’t do it - sit still , (don’t raise your hand! ) Sorry - that part was a joke…http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you don’t think that the ceiling of the Episcopal Church will collapse upon your head - and you feel like you need a little prayer, then I guess I’d summon my courage and head up to our “altar” for a blessing - second class, or not.

That would also be the polite thing to do, although I now see that righteous indignation trumps doing the polite thing.

One forum member has described “Episcopalianism” ( I thought that condescending term to be sorta funny ! ) as “Catholic Lite” And although I enjoy this banter very much, I’ll take my chances that the Episcopal Church is still my path to follow…

 

[mean_owen]

LisaN’s enounter brings up an interesting point. I’m no judge of others’ soul, but I’m pretty sure that a lot of Catholics take communion without the proper disposition. That said, I’m even surer that a lot of Episcopalians do- you see very few people hang back, and often relatively few get the blessing only (admittedly hard to tell sometimes when folks are kneeling). We may have the approach that the Eucharist is offered to all baptized Christians, but that doesn’t mean that everybody should take it every week. Yet, all too often, I’m afraid proper disposition gets overlooked. If I win the lottery any time soon, I’m going to offer a large sum to the rector’s fund if only he’ll have us recite this overlooked Exhortation, just once, from the Book of Common Prayer:

*Beloved in the Lord: Our Savior Christ, on the night before he suffered, instituted the Sacrament of his Body and Blood as a sign and pledge of his love, for the continual remembrance of the sacrifice of his death, and for a spiritual sharing in his risen life. For in these holy Mysteries we are made one with Christ, and Christ with us; we are made one body in him, and members one of another.

Having in mind, therefore, his great love for us, and in obedience to his command, his Church renders to Almighty God our heavenly Father neverending thanks for the creation of the world, for his continual providence over us, for his love for all mankind, and for the redemption of the world by our Savior Christ, who took upon himself our flesh, and humbled himself even to death on the cross, that he might make us the children of God by the power of the Holy Spirit, and exalt us to everlasting life.

But if we are to share rightly in the celebration of those holy Mysteries, and be nourished by that spiritual Food, we must remember the dignity of that holy Sacrament. I therefore call upon you to consider how Saint Paul exhorts all persons to prepare themselves carefully before eating of that Bread and drinking of that Cup.

For, as the benefit is great, if with penitent hearts and living faith we receive the holy Sacrament, so is the danger great, if we receive it improperly, not recognizing the Lord’s Body. Judge yourselves, therefore, lest you be judged by the Lord.

Examine your lives and conduct by the rule of God’s commandments, that you may perceive wherein you have offended in what you have done or left undone, whether in thought, word, or deed. And acknowledge your sins before Almighty God, with full purpose of amendment of life, being ready to make restitution for all injuries and wrongs done by you to others; and also being ready to forgive those who have offended you, in order that you yourselves may be forgiven. And then, being reconciled with one another, come to the banquet of that most heavenly Food.

And if, in your preparation, you need help and counsel, then go and open your grief to a discreet and understanding priest, and confess your sins, that you may receive the benefit of absolution, and spiritual counsel and advice; to the removal of scruple and doubt, the assurance of pardon, and the strengthening of your faith.

To Christ our Lord who loves us, and washed us in his own blood, and made us a kingdom of priests to serve his God and Father, to him be glory in the Church evermore. Through him let us offer continually the sacrifice of praise, which is our bounden duty and service, and, with faith in him, come boldly before the throne of grace [and humbly confess our sins to Almighty God]…*

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

It’s a mortal sin to participate in the worship of nonCatholic religions.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

Well, I guess I need to go to confession when my dad was dying of cancer he begged me to go to the Church of Christ with him. He was scared to death because I had become Catholic.I went but didn’t participate in any"communion" service and when approached told the congregation I was Catholic and my heart was there.They had a luncheon after services and I told everyone the same thing much to my dads dismay. I hated the look on his face and the hurt and fear in his eyes, and I know that God explained everything at he end. But, this is the first time I heard that me attending is a mortal sin.God Bless

 

[Lisa_N]

Mean Owen thank you for the prayer. I’ve printed it off and put in my resource notebock. It will be very helpful to me when I am able to take Communion. It’s easy to know what to do at our church because the RCIA group was informed of the protocol in advance.

Still once I am able to take Communion, I do want to be serious about it and not just march up there like it’s my due. I think it does help to really do some soul searching and treat the sacriment as a sacriment not a routine.

Just curious about the opposite situation. For example Father told us that often at a Catholic funeral mass, people will take Communion although not understanding whether or not it is proper. He says that he doesn’t presume and refuse someone although he might believe they aren’t Catholic. How do other priests handle this?

Lisa N

 

[mercygate]

katherine2:

I fully understand that. I stand by my post.

Were you referring to the blessed bread distributed after the Eucharist in Orthodox Churches?

You might fully understand what I said, but I am far from understanding what you said in your first response about participating in Orthodox services. Orthodox services are “real” – to use an unfortunate word. They are not in the same category as Protestant services. Are we actually on the same page here?

 

[Journeyman]

Lisa4Catholics:

Well, I guess I need to go to confession when my dad was dying of cancer he begged me to go to the Church of Christ with him. He was scared to death because I had become Catholic.I went but didn’t participate in any"communion" service and when approached told the congregation I was Catholic and my heart was there.They had a luncheon after services and I told everyone the same thing much to my dads dismay. I hated the look on his face and the hurt and fear in his eyes, and I know that God explained everything at he end. But, this is the first time I heard that me attending is a mortal sin.God Bless

Lisa, that was one person’s opinion and I don’t think anyone else here has subscribed to that theory. I think you did the right thing by going to church with your father but not receiving communion as long as you also were attending a Catholic Church on days of obligation. IMO, of course.

 

[Journeyman]

jamesclaude:

Your ecumenical skills are outweighed by your shopping list of sins. Even the current Pope prays with leaders of other faiths.

I’ve been on here for barely two weeks, and the most interesting thing I’ve noticed throughout is how most RC members are really caught up in Canon Law and a “slide rule” for sins.

I thought this was all hearsay from the past, but it seems to alive and well - to the obvious delight of many.

I’m now better at understanding from whence the infamous “Catholic Guilt” is derived and learned.

I had previously believed the Church of Christ denomination to be the most intense about believing that “they’re the only Ones” , but I’m now convinced that besides them, many Catholics hold this belief to be dear, also.

I’m a non-catholic guest on here - and hey - that’s how it is. I’ll cheerfully respect those views.

So, to answer your questions, if you know the chapter and verse of whatever sin it is for an Episcopal priest ( yeah, that’s what they are - like it or not ) to bless you, then by all means run away.

If you don’t know chapter and verse of whatever degree of sin that might impose, then just don’t do it - sit still , (don’t raise your hand! ) Sorry - that part was a joke…http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

If you don’t think that the ceiling of the Episcopal Church will collapse upon your head - and you feel like you need a little prayer, then I guess I’d summon my courage and head up to our “altar” for a blessing - second class, or not.

That would also be the polite thing to do, although I now see that righteous indignation trumps doing the polite thing.

One forum member has described “Episcopalianism” ( I thought that condescending term to be sorta funny ! ) as “Catholic Lite” And although I enjoy this banter very much, I’ll take my chances that the Episcopal Church is still my path to follow…

Whoa there, JamesClaude! I didn’t say it was a sin to receive a blessing from an Episcopal priest as you seem to indicate I said. And I don’t expect the ceilling to cave in either. You are overreacting.

When I receive Eucharist at my Catholic Church, my 6 year old also approaches the alter to receive a blessing from the priest or deacon who is an ordained clergyman of the Catholic Church. But if I happen to be receiving from an Extraordinary Minister (layperson) that day, I wouldn’t have my 6 year old approach the alter to receive a blessing from the EM either. Why? Because that person is not a valid ordained priest or deacon. What is the point of receiving a blessing from a layperson? In the same way, the Episcopal minster is not an ordained minister in the Catholic Church, which is my Church. So I could receive a blessing from him/her, but like it or not, why should I? Would you desire to be blessed by a Rabbi, or a Baptist Minister during a Baptist Communion service?

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Journeyman,

If this Canon is important, I would expect to find a similar prohibition in the CCC.

Canon law is not supposed to be duplicated in the CCC. However, I agree the Church has been pretty lousy lately at teaching Catholics about what is proscribed and prohibited … sadly, even in the seminaries.

However, nobody’s stopping any Catholic from removing their vincible ignorance by their own study. I did a goolge search on intercommunion and within minutes, found the EWTN article above. It isn’t difficult to find out what the Church teaches, proscribes, and prescribes. First, you have to want to know, then you have to just put forth a little effort.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

in this particular case where the Catholic faithful are ignorant of Canon Law, this would appear to not be a mortal sin and therefore a venial sin which is forgiven at a valid Catholic Eucharist or the next sacrament of Reconciliation even if not admitted as a sin, correct?

I agree (unless the ignorance was “affected ignorance”–see Aquinas’ discussion above). In fact venial sins are forgiven simply by prayer. However, if the ignorance was “affected,” the culpability may have increased.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Laity are permitted to say “God bless you.” God may bless you, or not, depending upon His will, not ours.

In fact, by Papal decree, the correct response to a sneeze it “God bless you.” So let it be written.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Lisa, that was one person’s opinion and I don’t think anyone else here has subscribed to that theory.

I agree. It is a sin to worship another God. Heretical Christians deny dogmas that must be believed by all the Christ’s faithful, but they do not worship a false God. If they do, then they are no longer heretical Christians, but apostates or infidels.

In the 1917 Code of Canon Laws, canon 1325 forbade Catholics to engage in debates or conferences with non-Catholics without the permission of the Holy See. Perhaps this is what **katolic **was referring to. It’s difficult to say, since katolic just thrusted his opinon out with supporting it with anything authoritative from the Catholic Church.

Nonetheless, canon 1325 of the 1917 Code of Canon Laws was abrogated by the 1983 Code of Canon Laws, which has no such prohibition.

In fact, the 1983 Code of Canon Laws instead states:

Can. 755 §1 It pertains especially to the entire College of Bishops and to the Apostolic See*** to foster and direct among Catholics the ecumenical movement, the purpose of which is the restoration of unity between all Christians which, by the will of Christ, the Church is bound to promote. ***[emphasis added]

§2 It is a matter likewise for Bishops and, in accordance with the law, for Episcopal Conferences, to promote this same unity and, in line with the various needs and opportunities of the circumstances, to issue practical norms which accord with the provisions laid down by the supreme authority of the Church.

From Pope Paul VI, NOSTRA AETATE, 1965:

The Church, therefore, exhorts her sons, that through dialogue and collaboration with the followers of other religions, carried out with prudence and love and in witness to the Christian faith and life, they recognize, preserve and promote the good things, spiritual and moral, as well as the socio-cultural values found among these men.

I am in the military, and the Bishop of the Archdiocese of the Military often encourages Catholics within his responsibility to have ecumenical gatherings and collaboration with the Protestant base chapel, such as prayer luncheons. If this is a mortal sin, then I’m gonna need more than just katolic’s opinion. I’d like to hear it from the Church.

 

[Journeyman]

Dave,

Excellent posts on this thread. Thanks for the information and sources.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Now, in my past debates with those associated with the Lefebvrist schism, they have cited the below excerpt:

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos, 1928:

it is clear that the Apostolic See cannot on any terms take part in their assemblies, nor is it anyway lawful for Catholics either to support or to work for such enterprises; for if they do so they will be giving countenance to a false Christianity, quite alien to the one Church of Christ.

It is quite true that Indifferentism is still heretical according to the Church. However, the disciplinary prohibition spoken of in this 1928 encyclical has been abrogated by Vatican II, which while still renouncing indifferentism, seeks to open up dialogue with non-Christians in the hope of removing barriers to unity, if possible.

I don’t think it is a sin to attend a Protestant worship service, however, those that do need to refrain from partaking of their sacraments, and be vigilant against indifferentism.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Journeyman,

Thanks, glad to be of some help.

 

[mean_owen]

Lisa N:

Mean Owen thank you for the prayer. I’ve printed it off and put in my resource notebock. It will be very helpful to me when I am able to take Communion. It’s easy to know what to do at our church because the RCIA group was informed of the protocol in advance.

Still once I am able to take Communion, I do want to be serious about it and not just march up there like it’s my due. I think it does help to really do some soul searching and treat the sacriment as a sacriment not a routine.

Just curious about the opposite situation. For example Father told us that often at a Catholic funeral mass, people will take Communion although not understanding whether or not it is proper. He says that he doesn’t presume and refuse someone although he might believe they aren’t Catholic. How do other priests handle this?

Lisa N

Lisa- glad you liked the Exhortation. We may get criticized for a lot of things, but we do have some wonderful and lovely prayers in our BCP.

Anywho, I’ve not had this come up in a Catholic funeral, tho in a closely related service, weddings , priests have made it clear that non-Catholics are not permitted to receive communion. Once, they just invited us to leave-to go to the reception- prior to the Eucharist. (Which might have eased the sting of being dismissed, except for the fact that these CATHOLICS didn’t serve any hooch at the reception).

 

[Servant1]

flameburns623:

ROMAN CATHOLICS CANNOT RECEIVE COMMUNION EXCEPT FROM A VALIDLY-ORDAINED ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST ACTING LICITLY. Only exception I know of is that in some cases there is some sort of permission to receive from an Orthodox priest.

Just about got it

Roman (LATIN) Catholic faithful can receive the Blessed Sacrament from Eastern Catholic priests (they are in communion with Rome, but not Roman Catholics). The deal is being in full communion with Rome. Which is not necessarily exactly the same as being Roman, or Latin, Catholic.

 

[jamesclaude]

Journeyman:

Whoa there, JamesClaude! I didn’t say it was a sin to receive a blessing from an Episcopal priest as you seem to indicate I said. And I don’t expect the ceilling to cave in either. You are overreacting.

I apologize - it was half-serious, half tongue-in-cheek.

Would you desire to be blessed by a Rabbi, or a Baptist Minister during a Baptist Communion service?

I wouldn’t participate in a Baptist Communion service unless I were told that I was welcome as a non-Baptist.

I would not treat it as the Real Presence, and take it as a symbolic communion - and as a gesture of ecumenical Christian love and politeness.

A rabbi’s blessing would be most welcome and readily accepted. I am not so hidebound as to think either of these activities would somehow hinder or alter my own beliefs or personal faith.

Likewise, I would accept a Buddhist blessing of the Dalai Lama if it were offered…

 

[uofl19]

So now my question is. I have been told by 2 different Priests it’s Ok. My wife will be absolutely Appalled when I have taken it all along. Plus if I don’t believe it’s not the Body and Blood of Christ. Who cares?? Am I not supposed to attend a service with her. Trust me I don’t participate in the least in the services. She’s not going to convert and I’m not going to convert to a Protestant. Maybe I will somehow get out of attending on the 1st Sunday of the month. But if you think I can not go to Church with her, then our Marriage will be in trouble.

 

[flameburns623]

uofl19:

So now my question is. I have been told by 2 different Priests it’s Ok. My wife will be absolutely Appalled when I have taken it all along. Plus if I don’t believe it’s not the Body and Blood of Christ. Who cares?? Am I not supposed to attend a service with her. Trust me I don’t participate in the least in the services. She’s not going to convert and I’m not going to convert to a Protestant. Maybe I will somehow get out of attending on the 1st Sunday of the month. But if you think I can not go to Church with her, then our Marriage will be in trouble.

Tough situation, UofFl19. I would bear in mind for future reference that the priests you consulted are NOT reliable sources of Catholic doctrine or practice. You will need to prayerfully consider how to communicate to your wife that your refusal to participate in a Protestant worship service is NOT a rejection of her, but simply an act of obedience to Christ. Perhaps consulting with a priest of reliable orthodoxy and sound insight can advise you how to do this. Very difficult to assure you that you would get the advice you need on an on-line forum, as no one here is sufficiently involved with your individual situation. God bless you in your time of perplexity.