Episcopal Diocese of NY says 'Episcopal church is NOT Protestant!'

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From the official website of Episcopal Diocese New york!!!:cool: :confused:

can see the link:

dioceseny.org/index.cfm?Action=Knowledgebase.ViewQuestionDetails&QuestionID=0001CBECE2DD1E78B061C9C10A01106C&CategoryID=DFF31868D1FE45B8BE39A76611FA91CE&ReturnURL=index.cfm%3FAction%3DKnowledgebase.ViewQuestions%26SearchCriteria%3Dprotestant%26x%3D14%26y%3D9

‘‘We are not Protestant because of several elements in our polity, spirituality and theology which are fundamental to our common life. These include the three-fold ministry of Holy Orders, the retention of a sacramental life that emphasizes Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist, the focus on the life of sanctification, the embrace of the Religious Life, the centrality of the historic episcopate, and several other distinguishing aspects of Catholicity. It would be incorrect to say that we are not Catholic because we are not Roman Catholic. And it would be incorrect to say that we are Protestant.’’
 
They are protestant whether they acknowledge the fact or not. Although they do share more in common with us Catholics than the more radical protestants such as the Baptists.
 
Wednesday March 19, 2003

Question:
This is a long going debate amongst my family. Is the Episcopal Church Catholic or Protestant?

Answer:
This question generates debate because many people make the mistake of thinking that ‘‘if you are not Roman Catholic, then you must be Protestant.’’

Significantly, the Episcopal Church is Anglican, and it dropped the word ‘‘Protestant’’ from the title page of The Book of Common Prayer over 20 years ago - it confuses our identity…
 
This question generates debate because many people make the mistake of thinking that ‘‘if you are not Roman Catholic, then you must be Protestant.’’
Any Christian who is not in communion with the Roman Pontiff is a protestant. Even the Orthodox could be considered protestant despite the fact that they believe in a faith which is almost identical to that of the Catholic Church.
 
Yes. They ARE Protestant but they DO believe that their Apostolic Succession is valid. That is the critical point with them. They believe their Bishops are “real.” And they can argue their case quite well.

Rather than cavilling, we would do much better to emulate those Episcopalians who truly live “more” Catholic lives, in both form and substance, than many of our own people do.

When we are authorized to serve on ecumenical dialogue teams with Episcopalians, we can then enjoy wielding our indignation over their claims of Catholic prerogatives.
 
Any Christian who is not in communion with the Roman Pontiff is a protestant. Even the Orthodox could be considered protestant despite the fact that they believe in a faith which is almost identical to that of the Catholic Church.

**“Protestant” refers to the movement that started in the 16th century.

The Eastern Churches are by no means Protestant. They cling to NONE of the distinctives of the Protestant Reformation.**
 
Conmsidering the stance some of their churches, take they aren’t Christian either:(
 
Well, I grew up in the Episcopal Diocese of New York and I was taught very clearly that I was a Protestant and that the Protestant Reformation was the best thing that ever happened to Christianity.

I was never taught even once that I was Catholic or that the Anglican church was a third branch of Catholicism.

I am really befuddled…
 
Any Christian who is not in communion with the Roman Pontiff is a protestant. Even the Orthodox could be considered protestant despite the fact that they believe in a faith which is almost identical to that of the Catholic Church.
I don’t think you’d get total agreement with that definition even among some Catholics.

One definition:
protestant, n.

  1. *]A member of a Western Christian church whose faith and practice are founded on the principles of the Reformation, especially in the acceptance of the Bible as the sole source of revelation, in justification by faith alone, and in the universal priesthood of all the believers.
    *]A member of a Western Christian church adhering to the theologies of Luther, Calvin, or Zwingli.
    *]One of the German princes and cities that supported the doctrines of Luther and protested against the decision of the second Diet of Speyer (1529) to enforce the Edict of Worms (1521) and deny toleration to Lutherans.

  1. protestant (also prə-tĕs’tənt) adj. One who makes a declaration or avowal.
    If you use #1 and #2 as definitions, you leave out any Eastern church, and the Anglican Church. And if you leave out the Anglican Church, you would also have to leave out Methodism - for Anglicans/Methodists adopt the “3-legged stool” approach where the BIble is concerned, and Methodists see works of piety as a means of grace. Anglicans/Methodists are also decidedly not Lutheran, Calvinistic, or Zwinglian in theology, particularly in sacramental theology.

    Having said that, one of the Southern bishops of the Episcopal Church (I think it was Paul ) wrote up something a while back proclaiming that they were the Protestant Episcopal Church. However, haven’t heard much out of him lately. 🙂

    A rose, by any other name… 😃
 
I find this thread interesting… because I was taught as a child, back in the 50’s even in catechism that the only significant difference between us and the Anglicans then…was that they did not accept the authority of the Pope. And that it was all because of Henry VIII.

My brother married the granddaughter of an Episcopal Bishop…and there wasn’t any big deal made of it. Our family loved her, her family tolerated him…but on that count I can’t blame them 😃 I’ve tolerated him for many years.

Nowadays, I’m not so sure. It seems that the Anglicans/Episcopalians have many rifts and differences internally.

I guess I always thought that they were closer to us than anyone else. I have heard of them being called “Catholic light”… because their ways were less rigid than ours. (That was not a jab!) And otherwise the only other big difference was that their Priests could marry.
 
I find this thread interesting… because I was taught as a child, back in the 50’s even in catechism that the only significant difference between us and the Anglicans then…was that they did not accept the authority of the Pope. And that it was all because of Henry VIII.

My brother married the granddaughter of an Episcopal Bishop…and there wasn’t any big deal made of it. Our family loved her, her family tolerated him…but on that count I can’t blame them 😃 I’ve tolerated him for many years.

Nowadays, I’m not so sure. It seems that the Anglicans/Episcopalians have many rifts and differences internally.

I guess I always thought that they were closer to us than anyone else. I have heard of them being called “Catholic light”… because their ways were less rigid than ours. (That was not a jab!) And otherwise the only other big difference was that their Priests could marry.
Didn’t the Catholic Dogma of Mary’s Assumption happen around the 1950s? Do you believe that caused more differences or separation between the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church?

“Catholic light”, I always heard “Catholic without the guilt”😃

God Bless!
 
Emeraldcoast it was always beleived right from the earliest days of the church…it was just finalized in the 1950’s

I think a lot of guilt would do some of the Episcopalians a lot of good…It is shocking at what some have done to your church…How can you ignore the sin of homosexuality and have a Bishop that is openly gay and with a partner…that is shocking to me
 
Episcopal Diocese of New York ::highprayer:

''The most balanced and respected theological view is that there are three major ‘Catholic churches’ - a) Roman Catholic, b) Orthodox, and c) Anglican (Episcopal).

This view is based on the fact that the English Reformation was affected by the (continental) Protestant Reformation in significant but not substantial ways. While our English forebears distinguished their church from the Bishop of Rome, they still retained the essential components of the Catholic Church.’’
 
Didn’t the Catholic Dogma of Mary’s Assumption happen around the 1950s? Do you believe that caused more differences or separation between the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Church?

“Catholic light”, I always heard “Catholic without the guilt”😃

God Bless!
As you are aware, all Anglicanism, including the Episcopal Church, has a broad spectrum of “permission” in what one is allowed to believe.

Many Episcopalians already accepted Mary’s Assumption and her Immaculate Conception, even in the 1950s. Many did not. I myself believed both (not in the '50s, I was a teeny-tiny kid) while an Episcopalian and would defend those teachings to Catholics. On the other hand, I thought it WAS an obstacle to reunion to proclaim that these teachings are to be held at the same level of faith as the articles of the Creed.

So did this cause a rift? No. The rift was already there. It did create a small abrasion.
 
I don’t think you’d get total agreement with that definition even among some Catholics.
If anyone disagreed with me on this point, I would not argue with them. I can totally see their point. The Orthodox are nothing like the Western Protestant denominations which trace their origins to the Reformation.

Perhaps I should explain what I mean. In the early centuries, the Church was undivided under the leadership of the Successors of St. Peter. However, in around 1054 the Church in the East broke away from the Successor of St. Peter. The Eastern Christians disagreed with the supremacy of the Bishops of Rome. In a sense, they left in protest against the authority of the Roman Pontiff. They also protested against beliefs which were held by those in communion with the Supreme Pontiff. Hence, they are protestants, because they protested against certain doctrines of the faith.

Fast forward to the 16th Century. Certain Christians in communion with the Bishop of Rome disagreed with certain doctrines of the faith and they also left in protest. However, these western protestants disagreed with more Catholic doctrines than those Eastern Christians who broke communion with Rome in 1054.

Although the Orthodox and the Protestants are vastly different, they do have one thing in common: they both severed communion with Rome because they protested certain Catholic doctrines. This is why we can technically call the Orthodox the first ever protestants.
 
My apologies, but the history you’ve just presented needs some nuance.

The early Church, up through the 5th and 6th centuries, was not united under the See of Rome, but with it-- there were at least five major Patriarchates, and at least one of them (Constantinople, and arguably Jerusalem) held the first place of honor among the five at different times. If you don’t believe me, check the history.

Secondly, the Orthodox struggled against Roman domination in matters of politics, doctrine and practice, particularly when the Roman bishop assumed the ability to dominate the other Patriarchs. Let us not forget that at least one Roman bishop was an arch-heretic (Honorius) who, if not resisted by other orthodox bishops, would have led the Christian world into monothelitism. By 1054 the stress fractures between the Roman west and the East reached a tipping point, and both excommunicated the other. Not exactly the East leaving communion with Rome… they saw Rome’s dominating leadership style as un-Christian, and their assumed authority to personally alter creeds set by truly ecumenical councils heretical… not to mention Rome’s willingness to sack and burn Orthodox cities, handing the Islamic invaders easy victories over Christian lands.

As for the Protestants of the 16th century, one must remember that not all reform movements of the 16th century were the same. Luther’s first attempts at reform were very mild by comparison (as opposed to Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabatists, the Enthusiasts, and so forth,) which is why the Augsburg Confession is the base root document of the Anglican 39 Articles… neither the early Lutherans nor the Anglicans intended to leave the Catholic Church. If one digests the history, Lutherans were hunted down and killed for proposing ideas like letting the laity read the Bible in the vernacular, or allowing priests to marry, or focussing preaching on Christ rather than indulgence procurements. The Lutherans got more extreme as they were hunted down and burned, even though many of their reforms have been established in the Roman communion since Vatican II. The Anglicans intended to remain Catholic, too… only they had the benefit of the protection of their entire country to implement reforms. Some Lutheran nations and provices enjoyed the same, and where they did, Anglo-Catholic and Lutheran-Catholic expressions of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church flourished.

Anyway, history does not support the idea that Protestant = not submitting to the See of Rome, though I think Roman Christians sometimes prefer to see things this way. As the last couple Popes have swallowed some of the Roman institutional pride and extended ecumenical dialogue with other Christians, we’re seeing a great deal more unity growing among the authentically catholic expressions of the faith-- Roman, Orthodox, Anglican, and Lutheran. I find this development very hopeful indeed. As I’ve said before in other forums, when the Bishop of Rome comes to other Christians as a servant of all, he is received much more readily than when he attempts to come as Dictator of all.

Peace.
 
Episcopal Diocese of New York:
'We are not Protestant because of several elements in our polity, spirituality and theology which are fundamental to our common life. These include the three-fold ministry of Holy Orders,
But historically many Anglicans have regarded this as simply a venerable way of ordering the Church, not as something essential.
the retention of a sacramental life that emphasizes Holy Baptism and the Holy Eucharist,
This clause displays the vicious ignorance about historic Protestantism that is all too common among high-church Anglicans. Lutherans, anyone? Even the Reformed would, at least in many cases, agree wholeheartedly with this clause, as would Methodists.
the focus on the life of sanctification,
Again, this is arrogant and ignorant. Do they seriously think that other Protestants don’t care about sanctification?
the embrace of the Religious Life,
Since the 19th century, and something that remains a characteristic of one wing of Anglicanism only.
the centrality of the historic episcopate,
Again, this is something about which Anglicans disagree. We all have the historic episcopate, but we don’t agree on how central it is.

Edwin
 
Luther’s first attempts at reform were very mild
There was never anything mild about Luther’s soteriology, which was the core of his “attempts at reform.” Certainly his initial practical moves were very moderate. But by about 1520 he was calling the Pope the Antichrist and criticizing the traditional understanding of the sacraments. This didn’t look very mild to contemporaries. Furthermore, Luther’s early rhetoric was far more hostile to tradition–including the Church Fathers–than the rhetoric of many other Reformers. The idea that Luther was more respectful of tradition than the Reformed, as a whole, is in my opinion a myth. He had more specific, selective interests in challenging tradition. He was less wholesale. But he was arguably quite a bit more radical on the narrow range of issues (focused on soteriology) where he did challenge tradition.
by comparison (as opposed to Calvin, Zwingli, the Anabatists, the Enthusiasts, and so forth,)
“Enthusiasts” can mean a lot of things. (Are you talking about the Zwickau Prophets and people like that?) But Calvin, Zwingli, and the Anabaptist tradition were all closer to Catholicism than Luther on some of the key soteriological issues. All of them made a closer connection between good works and salvation than Luther did. The Anabaptists were in fact criticized by Luther and other Reformers for their “new monkery.” It all depends on which issues you are looking at. And the Reformed tradition generally paid a lot more attention to justifying their position on the basis of the early Church than Luther ever did. (Other Lutherans were another story–I’m contrasting these Reformed theologians with Luther particularly, and not necessarily with the emerging Lutheran confessional tradition as a whole.)
which is why the Augsburg Confession is the base root document of the Anglican 39 Articles
I think that’s overstated.
neither the early Lutherans nor the Anglicans intended to leave the Catholic Church.
That’s a trite bit of tautology. Of course none of the Reformers intended to leave the Catholic Church as they understood it (are you seriously suggesting that Calvin and other Continental Reformed theologians did? Based on what?). But quite obviously they *did *intend to break communion with the Papacy.
If one digests the history, Lutherans were hunted down and killed for proposing ideas like letting the laity read the Bible in the vernacular, or allowing priests to marry, or focussing preaching on Christ rather than indulgence procurements.
Please name the Lutherans who were killed for teaching the things mentioned, and *only *for the things mentioned. The closest you might get would be someone like Constantino Ponce de la Fuente, who would not have considered himself a Lutheran and who was imprisoned, not executed (though he died in prison and of course one could speculate as to how he died). And even in his case it wasn’t a matter of “focusing preaching on Christ rather than indulgence procurements” (a straw man if I ever saw one), but of focusing preaching on faith in Christ rather than on such matters as the Eucharist, Marian devotion, etc. Another example would be Thomas Bilney, who was burned at the stake, but again not for the narrow range of issues you mention–the big thing that seems to have gotten him in trouble was rejection of saint veneration. I am mentioning the people who were persecuted even though they clearly did not intend to break with the Church, which appears to be your point even though your list of issues is inaccurate (or at least incomplete).
The Lutherans got more extreme as they were hunted down and burned,
Luther was calling the Pope Antichrist not too long after the Leipzig Disputation late in 1519 (I don’t have Brecht’s biography in front of me, with its detailed timeline, so I can’t give you the exact date when he started doing this, but it was certainly before his excommunication). The first Lutherans were burned at the stake in 1523, I believe. Certainly this did not tend to make Luther more moderate. But your excuse is threadbare and unhistorical. He was plenty radical before any of his followers had been killed.
even though many of their reforms have been established in the Roman communion since Vatican II.
The dominant theology at and after Vatican II would be, from Luther’s perspective, Pelagian heresy. Luther said that the primary issue was justification by faith alone, and he understood this doctrine in a way intrinsically tied to a radical doctrine of total depravity and predestination. Later Lutherans did not entirely follow him here, and I think that’s a good thing, because I think Luther was wrong on a lot of points. But the fact is that what Luther was saying is not something that the Catholic Church accepts today. You are trivializing the issues.
The Anglicans intended to remain Catholic, too… only they had the benefit of the protection of their entire country to implement reforms.
Not of “their entire country,” but of a despotic monarch (if you’re thinking of Henry VIII) who brutally suppressed popular rebellions calling for the restoration of the old ways of worship. Of course, you may be thinking of Elizabeth. Much the same applies. Maybe the English Reformation wasn’t as completely a top-down affair as modern “revisionist” scholarship argues (I think this scholarship is onesided, in reaction to the older “Whig” interpretation), but it certainly was not something embraced by the “entire country.”

I agree that nuance is needed. I don’t see a lot of nuance in your post.

Edwin
 
Contarini,

Many of your points are well taken. As this forum is difficult to spend tremendous time with scores of references that sum up broad historical periods, I may have painted with too broad a brush.

I will note, however, that Anglicans tend to have a peculiar view of Luther, and the Lutheran reforms, that is quite hostile… and often surprising to me. While most Lutherans I am aware of (including myself) would never dream of defending everything Luther did or wrote, I do think much of his work is quite defensible among the early Fathers… as Melancthon and Chemnitz demonstrated. I also think most Lutherans see in Anglo-Catholic theology a kindred spirit and tremendous agreement… and I struggle to understand the lack of reciprocity.

The Lutheran expression of the faith, however, is not Luther-centric… anymore than Anglican faith is Henry-centric. We make confessional statements based on Biblical and Patristic analysis, and then function within those norms. The key Lutheran confessions are articulated in the historic creeds, the CA and the Apology to the CA… the rest of the Book of Concord is largely commentary, unless you wish to add the Power and Primacy of the Pope as an adendum to the CA, which was arguably the signatories’ intent. Interestingly enough, none of those are Luther’s writings… though his Small Catechism has been a centerpiece in Lutheran catechesis.

As for that radical soteriology, I find it interesting that world-wide Lutheranism found a point of concord with Rome in the JDDJ. Not sure how radical that really makes our understanding of Grace and Justification… or if, perhaps, the polemics of history obfuscated the catholicity of the Lutheran position. It’s also interesting that Benedict, in his previous function as Cardinal Ratzinger, suggested the fundamental catholicity of the CA, which has formed the basis of our ongoing ecumenical dialogue.

Regards.
 
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