Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina leaves the Episcopal Church

[exnihilo]

It should also be noted that Anglicanism in the South Carolina lowcountry has a very long history. The Church of England was the state church of SC up until the Revolution.

I believe the Church of England (COE) was the state church of SC after the revolution as well as during the times of the Articles of Confederation. I’m not an expert on this history but as I recall one problem during the revolution was that the COE required of clergy an oath to the British monarchy. I thought during the revolution you had fracturing from the COE and at some later point a reunification of what was the COE into the Episcopal Church. It might have been that the state church (meaning the official church in a colony) became independent during the revolution. For many state’s including South Carolina I believe that church (which was formerly the COE) was established until some time after the conclusion of the war. For some states the established church continued to be established under the current US constitution. I’m not sure if South Carolina was such a church.

 

[manualman]

…In short, I’m glad our Catholic boat is in calm waters, and doesn’t have to go through the stormy seas that the South Carolinian Episcopalians are.

Wha…?? You must be on some serious Dramamine to think these are calm waters! Catholicism (IMO) barely avoided a similar fate in the 80’s and 90’s when there were more than a few bishops (whom I won’t name due to forum rules) that seemed to have no respect at all for defined catholic doctrine, morality and Tradition. We’re still on the same stormy sea, we just have the advantage of still being in the ship Christ provided for us instead of one built by humans instead. It surely helps too that the ship’s officers are a bit less mutinous than they were in decades past. Now if we can just the get the crew back to work…

 

[GKC]

I believe the Church of England (COE) was the state church of SC after the revolution as well as during the times of the Articles of Confederation. I’m not an expert on this history but as I recall one problem during the revolution was that the COE required of clergy an oath to the British monarchy. I thought during the revolution you had fracturing from the COE and at some later point a reunification of what was the COE into the Episcopal Church. It might have been that the state church (meaning the official church in a colony) became independent during the revolution. For many state’s including South Carolina I believe that church (which was formerly the COE) was established until some time after the conclusion of the war. For some states the established church continued to be established under the current US constitution. I’m not sure if South Carolina was such a church.

Eight of the 13 colonies had some form of state church, from the beginning, more or less: 5 Anglican, 3 Congregationalist. SC’s was Anglican and not removed from the state constitution until 1868.

During the Revolution, the church muddled on. After the Revolution, it was obvious that a new thing was needed. No longer was Anglican and Church of England synonymous. Problem was that there were no bishops in the colonies/new country. The CoE was still developing this whole overseas bit, and the episcopal duties, including confirmation, were handled by the Bishop of London during the colonial period. When the US churches met to form what became the Episcopal Church (note that the constituent dioceses, including that of SC, predate the Episcopal Church) a representative was sent to England to obtain, through consecration, the apostolic succession for the new and separate Episcopal Church. But the issue of the Crown/oath to the king did arise and the CoE declined to consecrate Rev. Seabury. Who went to the Non-Jurors in Scotland, for his consecration. Thus the episcopal lines originally in the Episcopal Church were not originally from the CoE, but from what might be considered the original Continuing Anglicans. History is complicated.

GKC

 

[ltwin]

How many Anglican denominations are we looking at already in the US?

A bunch. However, most are extremely tiny. And if you think about it, the Episcopal Church is numerically insignificant when you take into account its demographic information. In 2010, it reported 1,951,907 baptized members. But when you look at its 2010 Average Sunday Attendance you only have 657,831 people in Episcopal churches on any given Sunday across the nation.

 

[ltwin]

Something tells me that it may not end well for the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina. O:

Why do you say that? Considering the trajectory of the Episcopal Church (consistent overwhelming theological confusion, consistent overwhelming numerical decline, consistent overwhelming financial distress, consistent overwhelming administrative incompetence, consistent overwhelming withdrawal of entire dioceses), I would say the Diocese of South Carolina is making a good move disentangling itself from the hot mess that is the Episcopal Church.

 

[ltwin]

I believe the Church of England (COE) was the state church of SC after the revolution as well as during the times of the Articles of Confederation. I’m not an expert on this history but as I recall one problem during the revolution was that the COE required of clergy an oath to the British monarchy. I thought during the revolution you had fracturing from the COE and at some later point a reunification of what was the COE into the Episcopal Church. It might have been that the state church (meaning the official church in a colony) became independent during the revolution. For many state’s including South Carolina I believe that church (which was formerly the COE) was established until some time after the conclusion of the war. For some states the established church continued to be established under the current US constitution. I’m not sure if South Carolina was such a church.

Eight of the 13 colonies had some form of state church, from the beginning, more or less: 5 Anglican, 3 Congregationalist. SC’s was Anglican and not removed from the state constitution until 1868.

During the Revolution, the church muddled on. After the Revolution, it was obvious that a new thing was needed. No longer was Anglican and Church of England synonymous. Problem was that there were no bishops in the colonies/new country. The CoE was still developing this whole overseas bit, and the episcopal duties, including confirmation, were handled by the Bishop of London during the colonial period. When the US churches met to form what became the Episcopal Church (note that the constituent dioceses, including that of SC, predate the Episcopal Church) a representative was sent to England to obtain, through consecration, the apostolic succession for the new and separate Episcopal Church. But the issue of the Crown/oath to the king did arise and the CoE declined to consecrate Rev. Seabury. Who went to the Non-Jurors in Scotland, for his consecration. Thus the episcopal lines originally in the Episcopal Church were not originally from the CoE, but from what might be considered the original Continuing Anglicans. History is complicated.

GKC

In the absence of any bishops, the clergy and lay representatives of Anglican (or Protestant Episcopal) churches in each state gathered together in conventions to reorganize.

The “Protestant Episcopal Church in South Carolina” had its first convention on May 12, 1785. The Constitution and Canons of the national church were adopted by General Convention in Philadelphia in July 1789. This Constitution and Canons were accepted by the Church in South Carolina in October 1790.

 

[Crescentinus]

Why do you say that? Considering the trajectory of the Episcopal Church (consistent overwhelming theological confusion, consistent overwhelming numerical decline, consistent overwhelming financial distress, consistent overwhelming administrative incompetence, consistent overwhelming withdrawal of entire dioceses), I would say the Diocese of South Carolina is making a good move disentangling itself from the hot mess that is the Episcopal Church.

If the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina ultimately decided to stay with the Episcopal Church, that’s when things would not end well for the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina. But, if the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina decided instead to continue on their present path, they might find some level of freedom from the problems that haunt the Episcopal Church.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Wha…?? You must be on some serious Dramamine to think these are calm waters! Catholicism (IMO) barely avoided a similar fate in the 80’s and 90’s when there were more than a few bishops (whom I won’t name due to forum rules) that seemed to have no respect at all for defined catholic doctrine, morality and Tradition. We’re still on the same stormy sea, we just have the advantage of still being in the ship Christ provided for us instead of one built by humans instead. It surely helps too that the ship’s officers are a bit less mutinous than they were in decades past. Now if we can just the get the crew back to work…

I’m 20 years old.

It seems like most of your post is talking about the “80’s and 90’s”, or how bad things were in “decades past”. What I said was basically a paraphrase of what Ordinary Jeffery Steenson said upon joining the Anglican Ordinariate… they had finally docked in the safe harbor of Rome.

I find it stunning that you can read this thread and find this Church (Episcopal), to be anywhere close to the Catholic Church. Would this ever happen to a Catholic diocese? Because, apparently, this isn’t even the first time this has happened to an Episcopal Diocese.

Again, I’ll close by saying that my statement is an assessment of the present. Whereas you take issue with it mainly because of your opinion of things that happened 20-30 years ago (before I was born).

And, I’m certainly not going to call into question what kind of medications you are on, that was seriously a low blow on your part, and completely outside the purview of Christian charity. I’ll have you know, that I take no medications, I have had several colds over the past few months… and the only medicine I used was chicken noodle soup!

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Until recently, the Diocese of South Carolina was the only growing diocese in the Episcopal Church. That changed when Bishop Lawrence allowed a number of parishes (including the largest parish in the Diocese to leave), so one could say that being in TEC has hurt the Diocese more than it has helped it.

So, you’re saying rather than other Episcopal Dioceses starting to grow, that because of the legal mess and jumping of ship by the South Carolina Episcopalians, that now there isn’t a single Episcopal Diocese growing [to your knowledge]?

 

[GKC]

So, you’re saying rather than other Episcopal Dioceses starting to grow, that because of the legal mess and jumping of ship by the South Carolina Episcopalians, that now there isn’t a single Episcopal Diocese growing [to your knowledge]?

Collectively TEC has lost around 23% of its membership over the past 10-12 years. No significant growth.

GKC

 

[manualman]

Dramamine is a motion sickness medication, a play on your calm waters imagery. Not exactly a low blow unless you consider humor evil (not the usual kind of bad joke I’m accused of!).

It’s hardly ancient history to note that we catholics have had rather a few bishops covering up for priest molesters, priests endorsing gay activism and ‘marriage’ activism, bishops that almost universally will give communion to politicians unrepentant about being willing accomplices in making abortion available and cheap (and they’re trying for free). You’ve got pastors who routinely tell people in confession that contraception is fine if their conscience says it is. Here in Chicago we have a few of pastors who refused their bishop’s assignment to move on to a new parish. We’ve got orders full of nuns that openly defy the USCCB and Vatican on the meaning and implication of catholic teaching. It wasn’t all THAT long ago that Cardinal Mahoney and Mother Angelica practically called each other heretics…

Sure, things have improved since the 90’s. But I not only lived through that, I lived in Archbishop Weakland’s Milwaukee Archdiocese (during the time he had a secret male lover). Trust me, it can get bad and ugly in the catholic church too. We’ve got no place to gloat over the troubles of others.

 

[GKC]

Collectively TEC has lost around 23% of its membership over the past 10-12 years. No significant growth.

GKC

Hmm. On reflection, I think that’s more like 17% membership loss, 23% down in average attendance.

GKC

 

[Rainaldo]

A bunch. However, most are extremely tiny. And if you think about it, the Episcopal Church is numerically insignificant when you take into account its demographic information. In 2010, it reported 1,951,907 baptized members. But when you look at its 2010 Average Sunday Attendance you only have 657,831 people in Episcopal churches on any given Sunday across the nation.

Yes even the official name is shortening.

 

[Rainaldo]

Collectively TEC has lost around 23% of its membership over the past 10-12 years. No significant growth.

GKC

Yes, even the official name of the denomination is shortening.

 

[GKC]

Yes, even the official name of the denomination is shortening.

And whatever the numbers I am floundering around to recall are, it’s a significant loss.

GKC

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Dramamine is a motion sickness medication, a play on your calm waters imagery. Not exactly a low blow unless you consider humor evil (not the usual kind of bad joke I’m accused of!).

It wasn’t all THAT long ago that Cardinal Mahoney and Mother Angelica practically called each other heretics…

Sure, things have improved since the 90’s. But I not only lived through that, I lived in Archbishop Weakland’s Milwaukee Archdiocese (during the time he had a secret male lover). Trust me, it can get bad and ugly in the catholic church too. We’ve got no place to gloat over the troubles of others.

Well, it was a bad joke because I didn’t get it. It sounded a lot more like “what are you on medication? You must be insane and need medication? what are you on drugs?” That’s what it sounded like. Thanks for not apologizing.

It doesn’t make sense at all that your dramamine reference was referring to my statement and not me. You were claiming that I was ignorant, uninformed, or unaware… it had nothing to do with my statement, and everything to do with me personally. Again, thanks for not apologizing.

I googled “Mother Angelica Cardinal Mahoney”… and the third article begins like this, “For those of you who don’t remember, back in 1997 Cardinal Mahony…”
Back in 1997. That was over 15 years ago. I was only 5 years old.

Read this thread. When has this ever happened in the Catholic Church? A Diocese relinquishes legal claim to any of its parishes in order to avoid the USCCB from confiscating those parishes? Has that ever happened? Has the Catholic Church ever had a whole Diocese jump ship? Personal immorality and sin are obviously in every Church… stories like this are not.

Can you prove how the incident between Mother Angelica and Cardinal Mahoney is similar to a whole Diocese leaving the Episcopal Conference? Are those two events on par with each other? If so, prove it.

Lastly, I’m not gloating. Who’s gloating? “We’ve got no place to gloat” … Well, who in your mind is “We’ve”?

Because I can’t even remember the last time I gloated. To goat:
Contemplate or dwell on one’s own success or another’s misfortune with malignant pleasure.

I mean, them’s fighting words… if you feel it’s within the purview of Christian charity to just throw around fighting words… then be my guest.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

Hmm. On reflection, I think that’s more like 17% membership loss, 23% down in average attendance.

GKC

The Association of Religion Data and Archives (ARDA) says that between 2000 and 2010 the Episcopal Church lost 15.7% of it’s overall membership. So, I think your numbers sound pretty on the money then.

Btw, over the same period they claim that the Catholic Church lost 5% of its members.

 

[GKC]

The Association of Religion Data and Archives (ARDA) says that between 2000 and 2010 the Episcopal Church lost 15.7% of it’s overall membership. So, I think your numbers sound pretty on the money then.

Btw, over the same period they claim that the Catholic Church lost 5% of its members.

Problem is, I’ve seen figures for a sliding range of years. National Council of Churches figures once showed around 32% loss from around 1992 to 2011. It’s a moving target. Unlikely to be precise, anyway. But shows a trend.

GKC

 

[Mystophilus]

The dramamine comment made sense to me, as did the rest of it…

 

[Mystophilus]

Κυριε ελεησον
Χριστε ελεησον
Κυριε ελεησον

Lord, have mercy on us, for we are exceedingly daft, and prone to getting into great hissy fits with one another rather than sitting down and talking things out. Please grant us the wisdom to use the brains, the hearts, and the mouths which you have given us.

In particular, Lord, please comfort the members of the Episcopal Diocese of South Carolina and of other episcopal dioceses who are caught up in this storm over jurisdictions.