Episcopalian vs. Catholic

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Anglican Communion by and large does NOT endorse the gay lifestyle, homosexual “marriage” or most of the other innovations of TEC. So Canterbury is not a part of this discussion. The Episcopal Church has chosen to ordain an openly gay man, Gene Robinson, who dumped his wife and has lived the life of a sodomite for several years now. After that, homosexuality was declared perfectly fine and something to be lauded at the Anaheim Convention. The ordination of openly-gay and cross-dressing, gender-bending people was also declared something to be supported. It is indeed a major issue with your church right now. To deny that is silly. In this age where sexuality is being distorted, modified to fit the whims of the secular culture at large, and given the tremendous importance of sexuality in the family and Christian context, it absolutely IS fair to criticize these innovations and sanctions. Is is the ONLY problem most orthodox Anglicans, Catholics, and Christians have with TEC? Not by a long shot. My concerns about the diminishment of Christ’s salvific role and the tolerance of paganism and other silliness as well as the frivolity of women’s ordination and tolerance for abortion all are equally terrifying to any sane Christian.

When asked how Rome and Canterbury were so different, the choir immediately shouts that we accept gays. Most were able to list little else. Which I find incredibly odd! If you were to make a few short sentences about what the Roman Catholic Church was all about, would you say “Well, we think homosexuality is sinful!”? I rather doubt it, and I rather doubt the apostles would either. So if homosexuality is not to be taken as the defining belief of the Roman Church, then it seems rather unfair to take it as a defining belief of the Episcopal Church.

I posted because I think the characterization of the Episcopal Church on this thread is completely unfair. In the vast majority of Episcopal parishes, we perform perfectly orthodox worship, believe and profess the Creed, and receive weekly Eucharist which we believe is truly the body and blood of Christ our savior. We pray for the guidance of our bishops from God, which we believe are bishops by merit of their succession from the apostles. It isn’t unheard of to find an Episcopalian that prays the rosary. True, the choir director might be gay, but here’s the thing is… yours probably is too.

Zach

 

[Zach82]

Please cite Scripture for me then and prove to me

a) That women were and should be pastors/priests
b) That homosexuality is not only tolerated but encouraged and that gays should marry
c) That abortion is tolerated and sanctioned by God
d) That Christ is just “a” way to God, not “the” way
e) That “transgenders” and cross-dressers were clergy and should be
f) That Christians should co-worship with pagans
g) That God is female
h) That sex outside of marriage is permissible

I’d truly like to hear a rational response. You can shrug all you want, but my belief more closely mirrors orthodoxy for the last 2,000 years while those beliefs you defend are innovated, not Scriptural in the slightest, and philosophies given to the age we live in–not of God.

With the exception of female priests and the occassional gay priest, none of those are normative beliefs of the Episcopal Church. Why on earth would I defend them?

Zach

 

[CMatt25]

Please cite Scripture for me then and prove to me

a) That women were and should be pastors/priests
b) That homosexuality is not only tolerated but encouraged and that gays should marry
c) That abortion is tolerated and sanctioned by God
d) That Christ is just “a” way to God, not “the” way
e) That “transgenders” and cross-dressers were clergy and should be
f) That Christians should co-worship with pagans
g) That God is female
h) That sex outside of marriage is permissible

I’d truly like to hear a rational response. You can shrug all you want, but my belief more closely mirrors orthodoxy for the last 2,000 years while those beliefs you defend are innovated, not Scriptural in the slightest, and philosophies given to the age we live in–not of God.

Gurney, do you take everything in Scripture literally?

 

[DharmaBum]

I have followed these RC vs. Episcopal threads quite a bit over the last couple of years and have heard way more of a focus on gay issues coming from RC’s (toward the Episcopalians) than have ever heard mentioned in my parish. Maybe it’s because I’m from a pretty conservative and traditional area, but I just don’t get it. To read some of these posts it makes it seem as if we are all lining up to rewrite scripture and make sacrifices to pagan gods. The second someone points this out you’re asked to give a scriptural basis for the perceived beliefs of “TEC” when you’ve never even experienced the substance of the accusation! The Episcopal church is a democracy and as such reflects a diverse set of values. To group everyone together is narrow sighted, just as it wouldn’t be fair for us to group you together with those currently making headlines in the RC. What I believe personally can be summed up in the Nicene and Apostolic creeds. I find that sufficient.

 

[CMatt25]

And when you look at it rationally Catholics are not complete literalists anyway. But right away some want Scripture when they perceive something they don’t like about another church. Even though all sorts of things and customs in Scripture from Biblical times are not practiced today.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Yeah, I’m a real fruitcake. I actually believe Christ walked on water. I actually believe He was born of a virgin. I actually believe He literally rose from the dead. I believe He literally died. I believe Paul literally taught the Gospel in his epistles and truth. I literally believe the Eucharist is the Body of Christ as He said it was. I literally believe He healed the blind, sick, lame, and resurrected the dead as well as Himself. I literally believe Moses parted the Red Sea. I literally believe all Jesus tells us. I literally believe Elijah was taken away on a chariot. I literally believe in the prophets, the stories of Abraham, yes, I do believe. If you do not believe anything literally in Scripture, with all due respect, why do you bother to be a Christian? Be a deist, an agnostic, or an atheist. Just call a spade a spade. Or if you want to not believe in anything but would rather just play a part in liturgy why don’t you go Episcopal?

What am I NOT supposed to take literally? I don’t think Jonah was literally swallowed by a whale. I think the earth formed over a long process, 6 days for God could be millions to us. There are small things I think are allegorical like Job, Jonah, etc. But how can I NOT take the moral teachings of Christ and Paul himself literally? Where do you draw the line with the literal and allegorical or symbolic or prejudice of the Pauline era? Usually a liberal draws the line where he feels uncomfortable. When you want a female priestess, you just say that Phoebe was a deaconess so what’s the big deal with priestesses? You tell yourself that when Paul says in Christ there is no Scythian, Jew or Greek, male or female that must mean he was ok with women clergy? Or if you want gay men to enjoy sodomy together and call that a marriage you just say, ‘well heck, Paul was just kidding about all that’ or ‘he was prejudiced because they were unenlightened about genetics and the human brain back then.’ But with all the other stuff you ARE comfortable with, you take it literally. Convenient stuff.

I have a question for you, CMatt, why are you Catholic at all? Why don’t you go Episcopal? You seem well suited for it with your theological and moral viewpoints?

Gurney, do you take everything in Scripture literally?

 

[napoli426]

what’s the difference…uh…I think …heaven …and hell…hope that clears things up.

 

[nhylan]

Or if you want to not believe in anything but would rather just play a part in liturgy why don’t you go Episcopal?

Gurney man, I know this wasn’t directed at me but that’s a pretty ******, uncharitable thing to say. Why make blanket statements like that? Did you have a bad experience in an Episcopal Church at some point?

 

[DharmaBum]

Don’t you know that you’re just supposed to bash the Episcopals by saying we’re just playing church and insinuating we’re going to hell? And don’t forget to call us anti-Catholic if we defend ourselves!

Seriously, my experience in the Episcopal church has not included any of these crazy things always being directed at TEC as a whole (by some individuals). I appreciate the RC church and traditions. However, I don’t get why some think it’s ok tell others they are going to hell and sit in the judgement seat over 7 million CHRISTIAN believers. I’ve experienced this a few times and it has never sat right with me. People are quick to cry foul and media bias when accusations are leveled against them, but just as quick to accuse others…

 

[blazerdave]

I dropped out of this thread days ago and I don’t have time to read it all right now, so forgive me if I repeat anything or missed something. But I do want to say something about my friend Gurney. Like Zach82 and DharmaBum, my current parish doesn’t do any of these things either. It is as conservative and orthodox as it gets. My previous Episcopal parish taught that there were probably no such things as angels and that most of the miracles never happened. The priest wore a bizzare “rainbow stole” every time gay clergy were in the news. And they dropped the confession of sin before the Eucharist because “there are no more sins after the Cross.”

All that to say this: these were the sorts of issues that directed some of the discussions in this thread. Gurney’s not anti-Episcopalian, and he’s not on the attack. I share his concerns over our leadership’s willingness to discard theology that we have always believed due to cultural pressures. At the same time, I love our Church and don’t ordinarily see the bad stuff or the weird stuff either. I’d like to never see it at all, but I don’t think we can ignore it or act like it’s not out there. I’m not saying that anyone is ignoring it…just getting my :twocents: out there

 

[nhylan]

wow they censored that word?? that’s a little stringent if you ask me.

I know that Gurney is a good guy, my point is that patience and understanding should be used without fail in regards to ecumenical dialogue. Its like leaders of two countires meeting, everyone generally, goes out of their way to show deference.

Saying this I also relize that there are posters on the other side of this issue that haven’t followed this rule either, such is the effect of relative anonymity online think.

 

[Zach82]

Gurney’s not anti-Episcopalian, and he’s not on the attack.

Is actually seem that he is anti-Episcopalian and he is on the attack. Episcopalians keep saying that his perceptions of the Episcopal Church are wrong, and he keeps ranting about how we’re all gay, baby-killing pagans.

Zach

 

[GKC]

I dropped out of this thread days ago and I don’t have time to read it all right now, so forgive me if I repeat anything or missed something. But I do want to say something about my friend Gurney. Like Zach82 and DharmaBum, my current parish doesn’t do any of these things either. It is as conservative and orthodox as it gets. My previous Episcopal parish taught that there were probably no such things as angels and that most of the miracles never happened. The priest wore a bizzare “rainbow stole” every time gay clergy were in the news. And they dropped the confession of sin before the Eucharist because “there are no more sins after the Cross.”

All that to say this: these were the sorts of issues that directed some of the discussions in this thread. Gurney’s not anti-Episcopalian, and he’s not on the attack. I share his concerns over our leadership’s willingness to discard theology that we have always believed due to cultural pressures. At the same time, I love our Church and don’t ordinarily see the bad stuff or the weird stuff either. I’d like to never see it at all, but I don’t think we can ignore it or act like it’s not out there. I’m not saying that anyone is ignoring it…just getting my :twocents: out there

As with Anglicans in general, there are Episcopalians, and then there are Episcopalians. A motley …(what’s the word I’m looking for?) Episcopalians are a range of things. But the range is narrowing, and the general ethos of what’s emerging as the standard in TEC is what Gurney is saying (hyperbolically as it may be). More’s the pity.

GKC

 

[Zach82]

As with Anglicans in general, there are Episcopalians, and then there are Episcopalians. A motley …(what’s the word I’m looking for?) Episcopalians are a range of things. But the range is narrowing, and the general ethos of what’s emerging as the standard in TEC is what Gurney is saying (hyperbolically as it may be). More’s the pity.

GKC

That’s what the internet says, but is there any evidence that is really the case? I have never encountered crypto paganism in ANY Episcopal parish, and I am part of one of those liberal dioceses. Gurney has not presented a realistic portrait of TEC, and I rather doubt he can tell the future.

That is not to say that fruity paganism hasn’t been brought up from time to time in certain parishes. But the Roman Church has its own nuts. Indeed, dissaffected Catholics make accusations to Rome very similar to what Gurney is making to TEC. I don’t use the Roman nuts as the normative picture of the Roman Catholic Church, so it is beyond me why doing so for TEC isn’t anti-Episcopalianism.

Zach

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Zach. I never said the word “all” did I? Please show me where I said ALL Episcopal parishes are gay-loving baby-eliminators. I don’t recall that. You’re being hysterical and emotional. I’m simply stating that the hierarchy of TEC is very sympathetic to these extreme left liberal issues. Are you denying that? The Anaheim Convention for TEC was so far left it fell off the cliff of Mt. Progressive. The TEC officially sanctioned ordaining openly-gay LGBT people as priests. They made that clear. And you will constantly hear Presiding Bishop Schiori make references to God being female or that Christ is not the only way to God. She has said these things. And there are several prominent bishops and leaders in your church that are very very much into liberation theology, the gay agenda, abortion rights, etc. Recently an Episcopal priestess said abortion was “a blessing from God.” There have been several instances across America of Episcopal parishes worshipping with non-Christians. In Los Angeles a very large parish had a co-worship with Hindus! They had a fire ritual, mentioned the pagan Hindu gods in the prayers and liturgy and they let Hindus take communion!?? Another parish in the Midwest I posted about not too long ago mentioned Muhammad, Krishna, Siddhartha Gautama (the Buddha) and other pagan gods or founders of non-Christian sects as great ‘saints’ in the liturgy. Here in the Central Valley, about fifteen miles from my town (and mind you this is CONSERVATIVE country here in central California!!) the Episcopal parish had a Wicca priestess come to the service and speak and they lit this ritualistic wiccan candle, did this bizarre dance down the aisles and things got very weird very fast.

I’m not stupid, Zach. I know there are conservative hold-outs like Bishop Mark Lawrence in TEC and that not every parishoner is a lunatic. I never said that. You’re putting words in my mouth. I personally don’t know your theology, what you personally believe, you Zach, but I will say that generally-speaking TEC is extremely left of center, frequently enters pagan territory, has fully embraced pan sexuality, and is growing more heterodox and un-Christian by the day. Someday, maybe next year, maybe in five years, maybe next week your parish, though possibly conservative, will steadily begin to embrace this liberal rainbow-shrouded Gaia worship liberation theology secularism? Hopefully later than sooner.

I’m not “anti-Episcopal,” I’m anti-heterodoxy and I loathe any group that embraces the new ‘morality’ of the secular world that seeks to re-invent Christ in its own image. The ELCA Lutherans are no better. The United Church of Christ and some others are weird and off the path as well.

Is actually seem that he is anti-Episcopalian and he is on the attack. Episcopalians keep saying that his perceptions of the Episcopal Church are wrong, and he keeps ranting about how we’re all gay, baby-killing pagans.

Zach

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

If there is a “race card” for religion you’re presenting it well, Zach. I’m not anti-Episcopalian as stated in my last post.

As I stated, I’m anti-heterodoxy with morality and theology. You point out the nut jobs in the Catholic Church. Amen, friend. I don’t disagree with you. There are horrible bishops like Mahoney in L.A., and the guy set to take his place is a real piece of work as well—a poster child for liberation theology and not respecting our borders or sovereignty. There are Catholic bishops and priests who want women clergy or gay rights, you are totally correct. I reject them as quickly as I reject the mass sentiment of this in TEC.

But there is a difference, Zach. Georgetown and Notre Dame are liberal and many bishops are screwed up (again, agreed) but do you ever see the Catholic Church OFFICIALLY ENDORSING sinful dogma or clerical practices like you’ve seen TEC do at the last conventions and at a diocesan level? Seriously? Come on.

You’re right, I cannot predict the future. I did predict the Saints would beat the Colts, though!

“Fruity pagans” are indeed not the norm at ALL parishes in TEC. That would be absurd. But if you talk to 7 out of 10 Episcopalians and ask them about abortion, women’s ordination, gay rights, pre marital sex, and other issues, do you seriously think they’d lean right or moderate? Honestly…

That’s what the internet says, but is there any evidence that is really the case? I have never encountered crypto paganism in ANY Episcopal parish, and I am part of one of those liberal dioceses. Gurney has not presented a realistic portrait of TEC, and I rather doubt he can tell the future.

That is not to say that fruity paganism hasn’t been brought up from time to time in certain parishes. But the Roman Church has its own nuts. Indeed, dissaffected Catholics make accusations to Rome very similar to what Gurney is making to TEC. I don’t use the Roman nuts as the normative picture of the Roman Catholic Church, so it is beyond me why doing so for TEC isn’t anti-Episcopalianism.

Zach

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You’re probably a better guy than me, nhylan. I appreciate the kind words. We probably agree on more than we disagree with. God bless you…

wow they censored that word?? that’s a little stringent if you ask me.

I know that Gurney is a good guy, my point is that patience and understanding should be used without fail in regards to ecumenical dialogue. Its like leaders of two countires meeting, everyone generally, goes out of their way to show deference.

Saying this I also relize that there are posters on the other side of this issue that haven’t followed this rule either, such is the effect of relative anonymity online think.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

So much for the warm fuzzies. I just read this post after reading your last, nice post. sigh…

Gurney man, I know this wasn’t directed at me but that’s a pretty ******, uncharitable thing to say. Why make blanket statements like that? Did you have a bad experience in an Episcopal Church at some point?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Who said you were all going to hell? I missed that section? And by the way, if you look at the annual reports given to Schiori about attendance numbers, that 7 million is shrinking fast

I’m still trying to find that “judgment seat” in here and the condemnation to hell posts?

Don’t you know that you’re just supposed to bash the Episcopals by saying we’re just playing church and insinuating we’re going to hell? And don’t forget to call us anti-Catholic if we defend ourselves!

Seriously, my experience in the Episcopal church has not included any of these crazy things always being directed at TEC as a whole (by some individuals). I appreciate the RC church and traditions. However, I don’t get why some think it’s ok tell others they are going to hell and sit in the judgement seat over 7 million CHRISTIAN believers. I’ve experienced this a few times and it has never sat right with me. People are quick to cry foul and media bias when accusations are leveled against them, but just as quick to accuse others…

 

[Zach82]

I just admitted the existence of the occasional loopy parish or priest, Gurney. I am saying, using actual experience and knowledge, which you clearly lack, that such things are not normative in TEC. I point you, again, that the Roman Catholic Church has its own nuts, and their doings are no more normative for the Roman Church than Anglo-nuts are for TEC.

See, this is why the internet is so lame. The people with actual experience and knowledge are ignored while some guys rants “I heard from some guy that some church somewhere kills babies for Shiva!!!”

Zach