Episcopalian vs. Catholic

[nhylan]

You’re probably a better guy than me, nhylan. I appreciate the kind words. We probably agree on more than we disagree with. God bless you…

Thanks, but nah, I’m not. Just trying to train myself to be patient. I foresee many interesting conversations with my future in-laws about this kind of stuff!

 

[Zach82]

“Fruity pagans” are indeed not the norm at ALL parishes in TEC. That would be absurd. But if you talk to 7 out of 10 Episcopalians and ask them about abortion, women’s ordination, gay rights, pre marital sex, and other issues, do you seriously think they’d lean right or moderate? Honestly…

I really have no idea. What do you think would happen if I asked Catholics the same thing?

Zach

 

[DharmaBum]

I was referring to Napoli’s post where there’s a “clear” insinuation that Episcopalians are going to hell and Catholics to heaven. As far as that 7 million goes, I could say the same for the population of RC’s in the paper that claim to have “lost the faith” as well. If you can’t find the “judgement” in your own words…I won’t help.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Although I’m not sure you needed to respond with profanity, I do wish to apologize for my part. It was indeed uncharitable, rash, and nasty of me to make that comment. Please forgive me and the generalization as well as the crude way it was put. God bless.

Gurney man, I know this wasn’t directed at me but that’s a pretty ******, uncharitable thing to say. Why make blanket statements like that? Did you have a bad experience in an Episcopal Church at some point?

 

[CMatt25]

Yeah, I’m a real fruitcake. I actually believe Christ walked on water. I actually believe He was born of a virgin. I actually believe He literally rose from the dead. I believe He literally died. I believe Paul literally taught the Gospel in his epistles and truth. I literally believe the Eucharist is the Body of Christ as He said it was. I literally believe He healed the blind, sick, lame, and resurrected the dead as well as Himself. I literally believe Moses parted the Red Sea. I literally believe all Jesus tells us. I literally believe Elijah was taken away on a chariot. I literally believe in the prophets, the stories of Abraham, yes, I do believe. If you do not believe anything literally in Scripture, with all due respect, why do you bother to be a Christian? Be a deist, an agnostic, or an atheist. Just call a spade a spade. Or if you want to not believe in anything but would rather just play a part in liturgy why don’t you go Episcopal?

What am I NOT supposed to take literally? I don’t think Jonah was literally swallowed by a whale. I think the earth formed over a long process, 6 days for God could be millions to us. There are small things I think are allegorical like Job, Jonah, etc. But how can I NOT take the moral teachings of Christ and Paul himself literally? Where do you draw the line with the literal and allegorical or symbolic or prejudice of the Pauline era? Usually a liberal draws the line where he feels uncomfortable. When you want a female priestess, you just say that Phoebe was a deaconess so what’s the big deal with priestesses? You tell yourself that when Paul says in Christ there is no Scythian, Jew or Greek, male or female that must mean he was ok with women clergy? Or if you want gay men to enjoy sodomy together and call that a marriage you just say, ‘well heck, Paul was just kidding about all that’ or ‘he was prejudiced because they were unenlightened about genetics and the human brain back then.’ But with all the other stuff you ARE comfortable with, you take it literally. Convenient stuff.

I have a question for you, CMatt, why are you Catholic at all? Why don’t you go Episcopal? You seem well suited for it with your theological and moral viewpoints?

Gurney, I too for example believe Christ walked on water, healed the sick, resurrected from the dead. And I believe He will come again.

The problem with your assertions is Episcopalians here have repeatedly said they have not experienced most of what you put out there. And while I have looked at TEC and corresponded with a couple of TEC priests, if Episcopalians haven’t experienced these things, I certainly have not since I have yet to set foot in an Episcopal church.

But you presented reasons why they support women clergy. I might just also add that the women in our Catholic Church do not sit silent as Paul directed. We have female lectors and even female EMHCs now and altar girls.

You also already gave reasons why some Episcopalians may be more tolerant on gay issues.

Abortion tolerated by Episcolpalians? Pro choice does not always equate to pro abortion. But if by “abortion tolerated”, you mean pro choice, especially in cases of a mother’s life or health being in danger, rape or incest, God granted us free will. And I presume those pro choice Episcolpalians do not feel they walk in the mother’s shoes. Or perhaps their understanding is we live in a secular pluralistic society of many beliefs.

We are to love one another and not judge. I do include those on the list of things I take literally.

Most Christians do not follow the Leviticus dietary laws of the times. Catholics at one time forbid meat on any Fri of the yr but changed the discipline to apply only during Lent.

Do you take allowing slavery literally today? Stoning people to death? When was the last time any of us plucked our eyes out? Should a woman be required to marry her rapist today? And there are many other examples.

Things change Gurney.

I merely “draw the line” as you put it, by striving to live to the best of my ability according to my conscience as I know you do as well Gurney. We may not always be on the same pg yet we are united in the One most important of all. Christ our Lord and Savior.

I might be better suited for the Episcopal, Gurney. Along with a couple of others. But I do not proclaim myself infallible. And I am uncertain any church has it all completely right. But I was made a member of the CC by my Baptism, later catechized and confirmed. I have had my moments in the past of “what if” the CC is right. And while I do not know where God might lead me tomorrow, I still worship Him in the CC today. I hope that helps!

May HE bless you Gurney. (See I even use the male gender form) Peace.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

You haven’t been quoting the person to whom you’re replying so it’s a little unclear at times who you’re talking about?

I was referring to Napoli’s post where there’s a “clear” insinuation that Episcopalians are going to hell and Catholics to heaven. As far as that 7 million goes, I could say the same for the population of RC’s in the paper that claim to have “lost the faith” as well. If you can’t find the “judgement” in your own words…I won’t help.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

That’s great.

Gurney, I too for example believe Christ walked on water, healed the sick, resurrected from the dead. And I believe He will come again.
Talking with a couple of TEC priests and hearing from a few Episcopalians in this forum does not constitute the bigger picture. Follow Virtuonline and talk to the multitude of priests I’ve spoken to in ACNA and TEC, follow all the many liberal trends and abuses across the country actively and look at the bigger, broader picture and you’ll see I’m right.
The problem with your assertions is Episcopalians here have repeatedly said they have not experienced most of what you put out there. And while I have looked at TEC and corresponded with a couple of TEC priests, if Episcopalians haven’t experienced these things,
That was a matter of discipline, like wearing veils. Veils in the society of that time were considered pious so it was encouraged. As they no longer hold that significance, they were dropped. But the very nature of men and women with regard to the sublime and sacred Holy Orders is a theological, biological, and deeper issue than mere discipline and attitudes.
But you presented reasons why they support women clergy. I might just also add that the women in our Catholic Church do not sit silent as Paul directed. We have female lectors and even female EMHCs now and altar girls.

This is where you and I differ and why I said you sound like you belong in the TEC. I don’t say that with a bite or chidingly. If you believe that being open to allowing a woman to commit infanticide is ok even though you wouldn’t do it yourself, where does it end? I don’t believe in Nazi holocausts, but who am I to tell Hitler it’s wrong, eh? I don’t believe in burning crosses in people’s front yards and lynching black folks, but who am I to tell a grand dragon it’s wrong? Morality at some point must be objective and stop being subjective. Turning your cheek to murder is tantamount to being complicit in that murder. You can say you’re pro-life but if you don’t do anything to fight abortion and you are perfectly willing to allow others to do it and you have a libertarian morality about it, you do not belong in the Catholic Church. That’s just a fact. It’s not a judgment. It’s a fact. The Catechism and 2,000 years of Christian tradition are against you here.
Abortion tolerated by Episcolpalians? Pro choice does not always equate to pro abortion. But if by “abortion tolerated”, you mean pro choice, especially in cases of a mother’s life or health being in danger, rape or incest, God granted us free will.

We are not allowed to judge a person’s salvation but we ARE told by Paul, the Lord and others in the NT to judge behavior and to point out sins and the deeply immoral actions that jeopardize one’s salvation. Are we to be libertines and have no objective morality, standards, or course?
We are to love one another and not judge. I do include those on the list of things I take literally.

Again, that is a discipline. As a Catholic you should know that. The Church cannot change morality or theology, but she can change disciplines. For example, next week the Church could allow priests to marry if she so chose. Clerical celibacy is a discipline, like fish on Friday or wearing veils, etc. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
Most Christians do not follow the Leviticus dietary laws of the times. Catholics at one time forbid meat on any Fri of the yr but changed the discipline to apply only during Lent.

**Yep, you caught me. I have slaves and stone people regularly. Come on, dude lol…You’re citing Jewish Law, the Torah. Where did Paul say we are to continue the Levitical laws and stone people? Wasn’t that what Romans and the rest of the Pauline letters and Acts were about? You keep citing Jewish laws as if the Catholic Church still holds to them?
**
Do you take allowing slavery literally today? Stoning people to death? When was the last time any of us plucked our eyes out? Should a woman be required to marry her rapist today? And there are many other examples.

Morality doesn’t nor does theology. Disciplines can. You’re very confused about which is which. You want God to be playdough, someone to be molded, morphed, and squeezed into the jar you’ve assigned Him. "God’s ways are not your ways"
Things change Gurney.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

CONTINUED…

We are united in our love for Christ. But Christ is very adamant about if your eye causes you to sin, poke it out, if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Follow my commandments, “many will come to me saying Lord Lord!” Jesus expects us to live an objective morality and not just turn a blind eye to sin and our lifestyle because we love Him. Loving Christ does not equal a libertarian Tupac-style “you don’t know me don’t judge me” model. We are called to live the Christian life.
I merely “draw the line” as you put it, by striving to live to the best of my ability according to my conscience as I know you do as well Gurney.

**I don’t proclaim myself infallible either; we do have that in common. When I say you’re better suited to TEC, I don’t say that to imply you’re an immoral bum. I say it because it seems that you are indeed a good fit to it. You are not a good fit for Catholicism. To be a Catholic you must indeed accept infallibility. I’m not saying that’s right or wrong, just the fact that it’s true. If you can’t accept that, you’re more of an Episcopalian in your theology. Your parents baptized you Catholic, but if your heart isn’t Catholic and you don’t believe much of the Church’s theology, why stay? **
I might be better suited for the Episcopal, Gurney. Along with a couple of others. But I do not proclaim myself infallible. And I am uncertain any church has it all completely right.

Cute. Thanks for the blessing, and also with you. I’m glad you can at least see the truth about “Him.”
May HE bless you Gurney. (See I even use the male gender form) Peace.

 

[nhylan]

Although I’m not sure you needed to respond with profanity, I do wish to apologize for my part. It was indeed uncharitable, rash, and nasty of me to make that comment. Please forgive me and the generalization as well as the crude way it was put. God bless.

Sorry about the confusion, I didn’t actually use a profanity, I don’t know why it censored it. I used a very docile synonym for a profanity so maybe that’s why but definitely not offensive, hope you aren’t.

 

[Joseph651]

Being a former Episcopalian I pray for all of you. The reason I left was because of what the Bible tells us about false prophets, and false teachers. I have no idea why someone wants to associate themselves with such leaders. When you place your tidings each Sunday, you are saying I believe in what the leaders of my church is doing, is right with God! Please read about what God is telling you about the false prophets and teachers and what will happen if you follow them, and then read about how God will judge you on your merits. I pray that you will open your eyes and come home. There is only one See of Peter doing what Jesus instructed him to do in accordance to spreading the word of God Almighty and building His Church.

 

[nhylan]

Being a former Episcopalian I pray for all of you. The reason I left was because of what the Bible tells us about false prophets, and false teachers. There is only one See of Peter doing what Jesus instructed him to do in accordance to spreading the word of God Almighty and building His Church.

That’s what Catholics believe so to you its absolute, but to me, its largely subjective. I mean I could essentially, if i was a different person, come on here and say the exact same thing about the Catholic Church. (In fact I think I have seen posts from Fundamentalists where that exact thing happens.) It’s not a good argument when someone is looking through a different lens than you.

 

[CMatt25]

Gurney instead of quoting all of that I will just answer a few of your points here.

Np as I take no “bite” from your suggestion of me being more aligned with TEC.

Yes Christ said pluck our eyes out. NT not OT. And we would all be walking around blind if we took Him literally.

I’m not as confused as you might think. And yes we will cry out Lord, Lord, and how will He know us? He will know us if we have strived within our capabilities toward those liberal ideals He actually taught as righteous in Matt25 and on the Mount for instance. Things like serving the poor, the sick, the hungry, the homeless. Blessed are the peacemakers.

Gurney, staying is a struggle at times. But Christ bear a much heavier cross. And perhaps the Church has put enough guilt into me and “what if’s” and there is the Catholic 4th commandment. Peace.

 

[GKC]

That’s what the internet says, but is there any evidence that is really the case? I have never encountered crypto paganism in ANY Episcopal parish, and I am part of one of those liberal dioceses. Gurney has not presented a realistic portrait of TEC, and I rather doubt he can tell the future.

That is not to say that fruity paganism hasn’t been brought up from time to time in certain parishes. But the Roman Church has its own nuts. Indeed, dissaffected Catholics make accusations to Rome very similar to what Gurney is making to TEC. I don’t use the Roman nuts as the normative picture of the Roman Catholic Church, so it is beyond me why doing so for TEC isn’t anti-Episcopalianism.

Zach

The problem with the emerging TEC norm may be adequately calculated by the emergence of the ACNA, and, many years before, by the St. Louis statement and the Continuum. And one might also take a look at the resolutions passed at the last General Synod. The TEC is being purified. Pure what is the open question.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus
*

 

[CMatt25]

That’s what Catholics believe so to you its absolute, but to me, its largely subjective. I mean I could essentially, if i was a different person, come on here and say the exact same thing about the Catholic Church. (In fact I think I have seen posts from Fundamentalists where that exact thing happens.) It’s not a good argument when someone is looking through a different lens than you.

well put

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi again Matt

Gurney instead of quoting all of that I will just answer a few of your points here.

Np as I take no “bite” from your suggestion of me being more aligned with TEC.
Sorry, a mistake on my part in typing. But of course that statement by Christ was figurative and not literal. That’s why we need the Church to sort these things out, not ourselves alone.
Yes Christ said pluck our eyes out. NT not OT. And we would all be walking around blind if we took Him literally.
I never thought you were confused. And I agree with the virtues you list here from the Beatitudes and Gospel. I never thought that ALL liberal values are evil ones. Feeding the poor, loving one’s neighbor, visiting the sick, those are liberal and conservative virtues.
I’m not confused as you might think. And yes we will cry out Lord, Lord, and how will He know us? He will know us if we have strived within our capabilities toward those liberal ideals He actually taught as righteous in Matt25 and on the Mount for instance. Things like serving the poor, the sick, the hungry, the homeless. Blessed are the peacemakers.
Good enough. But you must be true to your beliefs. If you believe TEC theology, you truly belong there. If you feel doubt about those liberal instincts and choose to obey the Catholic Church, staying makes sense. But if you have doubts about abortion, women’s ordination, gays, etc. then you would want to meet with a priest/bishop/spiritual advisor and not bring scandal by supporting these issues publically. It’s dangerous for your faith and you’re putting yourself in jeopardy. That was my only reason for suggesting TEC. May God bless you.
Gurney, staying is a struggle at times. But Christ bear a much heavier cross. And perhaps the Church has put enough guilt into me and “what if’s” and there is the Catholic 4th commandment. Peace.

 

[Zach82]

Follow Virtuonline and talk to the multitude of priests I’ve spoken to in ACNA and TEC, follow all the many liberal trends and abuses across the country actively and look at the bigger, broader picture and you’ll see I’m right.

Do you really think Virtue Online and dissaffected former Episcopalians are a fair source for information on TEC? Are Jack Chick Tracts and dissaffected, hyper traditionalist former Catholics a fair source for information on the Catholic Church?

Anti-Episcopalianism is looking like an apt label for someone that spews uniformed, inaccurate, hateful generalizations about Episcopalians.

Zach

 

[DharmaBum]

Being a former Episcopalian I pray for all of you. The reason I left was because of what the Bible tells us about false prophets, and false teachers. I have no idea why someone wants to associate themselves with such leaders. When you place your tidings each Sunday, you are saying I believe in what the leaders of my church is doing, is right with God! Please read about what God is telling you about the false prophets and teachers and what will happen if you follow them, and then read about how God will judge you on your merits. I pray that you will open your eyes and come home. There is only one See of Peter doing what Jesus instructed him to do in accordance to spreading the word of God Almighty and building His Church.

I have heard this SAME argument used in reverse this week. I think it’s all a matter of perspective.

 

[DharmaBum]

Do you really think Virtue Online and dissaffected former Episcopalians are a fair source for information on TEC? Are Jack Chick Tracts and dissaffected, hyper traditionalist former Catholics a fair source for information on the Catholic Church?

Anti-Episcopalianism is looking like an apt label for someone that spews uniformed, inaccurate, hateful generalizations about Episcopalians.

Zach

You beat me to it, Matt. Virtue Online as a news source?

 

[DharmaBum]

Do you really think Virtue Online and dissaffected former Episcopalians are a fair source for information on TEC? Are Jack Chick Tracts and dissaffected, hyper traditionalist former Catholics a fair source for information on the Catholic Church?

Anti-Episcopalianism is looking like an apt label for someone that spews uniformed, inaccurate, hateful generalizations about Episcopalians.

Zach

You beat me to it, Zach. Virtue Online as a news source?

 

[CMatt25]

Gurney, you suggest I consider moving to TEC. But what about point # 7 here:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20060313_actus-formalis_en.html

1. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.

And of course since this was written, Pope Benedict has modified it so even a formal defection process no longer releases someone from Catholic marriage law which is what the former process did.

Thank you for your blessings and again may God bless you as well.