Episcopalians and Homosexuality

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Valke2 said:
Conservative Judaism has recently (December 2006) adopted a ruling permitting the ordination of gay rabbis and recognizing the committed relationships of homosexuals. It based its ruling on the fact that there are homosexual Jews who are being deprived of the basic human dignity of entering into a loving committed relaitonship. The ruling upheld the band on the specific act of anal intercourse between men, as this is a prohibition set forth in the Torah. Each Conservative community is free to adopt this ruling or to follow the more traditional ruling. Both can disagree with each other but both recognize that the neither is breaking Jewish law.

I stress that this is within the COnservative halacha. Orthodox Judaism still takes the more traditional approach that Catholicism follows.
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So in Judaism what is sin changes from generation to generation? Do all those jews who went to hell for enageing in homosexuality now get a get out of jail free card or is the new ruling not retroactive?
 
Valke2 said:
I admit that incest is a part of my history and that we believe the Messiah will also be a descendent of the offspring of Lot and his daughters (as well as the offspring of a convert). Nevertheless, I admit I made a cheap shot. It just seems to me that for some people the entire purpose of religion is to ostracize homosexuals and Harry Potter books.
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Perhaps the reason homosexual behavior recieves more attention than other sexual sins is that no one, for instance, is holding adultery pride parades and claiming that adultery is not a sin at all but merely an expression of love.
 
I thought this was a thread about Episcopalians and homosexuality? Why did everyone drag the Jews into it?
 
Am I incorrect that Jesus only refered to marrage as a man and a woman? Am I incorrect that St. Paul spoke against it? Am I incorrect that when Jesus mentioned “lusting in your heart” as the same as adultry, he made it clear that just because the Book doesn’t say it is a sin does it mean that it is not a sin. According to the Bible, the only person a man can have sex with is his wife, and vice-versa. WHere is the loophole? I know that this means that homosexuals cannot have sex, but neither can single heterosexuals.
 
Valke2 said:
Well, I could say that the entire concept of Christianity is only possible if one does not subscribe to authorities like the Bible, which requires and prohibits many things that are not part of Christianity. And the “act” is a physical expression of love (or can be) between two people. It can be argued that it is far less destructive than the act of condeming someone for doing it.
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As a person who used to be actively homosexual, let me tell you that there is no such thing as love in the homosexual community. From dating and being in relationships with men, I have never seen so much dihonesty, perversion, promescuity, hedonism, shallowness, or selfishness. The homosexual act is certainly not one of love but of infatuation and lust. Why do you think that homosexuals, for the most part, do not form life long relationships? For several reasons. First, they do not look to the greatest good for their fulfillment, namely God. Instead, they try to find it in their partners, and when they can’t find it there (because no human can takes God’s place) they move on to the next person. Second, since the whole thing is based on lust, not love, then there is nothing to anchor them together when the bad times come and sex is not enough. I remember when I was with the man whom I “loved” most in life and I lost my job. Instead of standing by me, instead, of supporting me, he turned it into something all about him. I was stressing him out. I was causing him to feel insecure about it. In most heterosexual relationships, your partner is the person you can count not. Not so in the homosexual world. Third, since homosexuality has a great deal to do with finding some male to make us feel good about ourselves, one man is never enough. We keep seeking the next man who can give us the attention we want. Don’t ever fool yourselves into thinking there is such a thing as homosexual love. It simply does not exist. Agape cannot be found amongst them becasue its always about “me”.
 
East_and_West said:
I remember when I was with the man whom I “loved” most in life and I lost my job. Instead of standing by me, instead, of supporting me, he turned it into something all about him. I was stressing him out. I was causing him to feel insecure about it. In most heterosexual relationships, your partner is the person you can count not. Not so in the homosexual world. Third, since homosexuality has a great deal to do with finding some male to make us feel good about ourselves, one man is never enough. We keep seeking the next man who can give us the attention we want. Don’t ever fool yourselves into thinking there is such a thing as homosexual love. It simply does not exist. Agape cannot be found amongst them becasue its always about “me”.
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Males are naturally polygamous whether straight or gay. And a lot of relationships shatter under stress.
 
wifeandmomoftwo said:
So it is only Orthodox Jews that view this as “breaking the law” while reform and conservative jews have no issue with it?
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A more accurate statement is that one can be following the halacha of Conservaitve Judaism as a homosexual without being in violation of the Halacha. As to what individual Jews believe within each movement will of course vary. But as far as halacha goes, only the Orthodox uniformly view all homosexual acts as a violation of a commandment.
 
estesbob said:
Perhaps the reason homosexual behavior recieves more attention than other sexual sins is that no one, for instance, is holding adultery pride parades and claiming that adultery is not a sin at all but merely an expression of love.
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Why is that? Why is it that adultry, although practiced by many, is uniformly viewed as immoral behavior? And homosexual actions are not?
 
Valke2 said:
Why is that? Why is it that adultry, although practiced by many, is uniformly viewed as immoral behavior? And homosexual actions are not?
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Most do view homosexual behavior as well as adultery as immoral. The addulterous, however, rarely claim what they are doing is not only moral but an expression of love.
 
East_and_West said:
As a person who used to be actively homosexual, let me tell you that there is no such thing as love in the homosexual community.
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And as a person who has been close friends with homosexual couples let me assure you that there is plenty of love there.
From dating and being in relationships with men, I have never seen so much dihonesty, perversion, promescuity, hedonism, shallowness, or selfishness.
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You just described a large segment of the heterosexual population.
The homosexual act is certainly not one of love but of infatuation and lust.
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You just described a large percentage of heterosexual acts.
 
Valke2 said:
And as a person who has been close friends with homosexual couples let me assure you that there is plenty of love there.

.
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A miniscule number of homosexuals live in long term(or even short term) monogamous relationships.Look at the states where so called homosexual marriage has been approved. A statistical insignificant % of the homosexual population take advantage of it.
 
jay29 said:
I am having trouble trying to convince an Episcopalian that practicing homosexuality is against the Lord’s will. I quoted scripture, catechism, ECFs, all to no avail. He stated that Jesus didn’t say anything about it (I tried the Holy Trinity approach as well as St. Paul) and if it was that important He would have said something. I even tried to bring up what is going on in his church, all the splits, also to no avail…

I just don’t understand how any Christian can think that practicing homosexuality is not a sin. I don’t get it.:o
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Truth is, they do know that it is wrong but will not see on their own merit. They have traded the Scriptures and the truth of Christ for the comforts and glamour of society and culture. It’s not about what the church is anymore, it isabout how the church can form around their passions and desires.
 
Valke2 said:
We get dragged into everything.
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If I remember correctly it was YOU who FIRST came in here and promoted/supported that lifestyle. Nobody drug you into anything. I merely responded to you because I thought you as a Jew believed that Sodom and other explicit laws of the Torah slammed the door on such issues, I had NO IDEA there were “conservative Jews” giving the green light here. Just goes to show how the term “conservative” has SHIFTED BIGTIME. 😦

I meant nothing against you personally.
 
Catholic_Dude said:
If I remember correctly it was YOU who FIRST came in here and promoted/supported that lifestyle. Nobody drug you into anything. I merely responded to you because I thought you as a Jew believed that Sodom and other explicit laws of the Torah slammed the door on such issues, I had NO IDEA there were “conservative Jews” giving the green light here. Just goes to show how the term “conservative” has SHIFTED BIGTIME. 😦

I meant nothing against you personally.
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Jay said he didn’t understand how a Christian could say homosexuality wasn’t a sin. So I gave my opinion as to how it might be possible. I didn’t take anything you posted earlier personally. I was really just making a small joke in response to an earlier post. I didn’t mean to suggest I was being attacked here in any way.
 
It might help to get your friend to read Raymond E Brown, who gives a very careful and detailed analysis of this question in the book ‘The New Testament.’ While one may not agree with his conclusions, Brown is a very careful and professional scholar who does not have a rabid hatred of homosexual people (as unfortunately some who condemn this form of sexuality on the grounds of religion seem to) and who tries to convince by argument and careful exegesis of the bible. His argument against homosexual conduct and fornication without jumping to hasty judgement and hatred of those who do these things based on his reading of Paul’s theology should be read by everyone concerned by this question.
 
Valke2 said:
Maybe he believes that all people should b e able to find someone they love and that they should be able to express their love for someone in a sexaul way, like anyone else. And to prohibit someone who can only find such love in a homosexual relationship from expressing their love through physical intimacy is a greater preversion than engaging in the homosexual act.
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Then he’d be 100% wrong, as you are. Your response added nothing to the OP’s question. You simply used the question as a way to grandstand for gay rights. Thanks for contributing; it isn’t THAT hard to create your own divisive threads you know…

Start your own topic to try and convince people why adulterers and homsexuals are all motivated by true love.
 
Greg27 said:
It might help to get your friend to read Raymond E Brown, who gives a very careful and detailed analysis of this question in the book ‘The New Testament.’ While one may not agree with his conclusions, Brown is a very careful and professional scholar who does not have a rabid hatred of homosexual people (as unfortunately some who condemn this form of sexuality on the grounds of religion seem to) and who tries to convince by argument and careful exegesis of the bible. His argument against homosexual conduct and fornication without jumping to hasty judgement and hatred of those who do these things based on his reading of Paul’s theology should be read by everyone concerned by this question.
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At first I was kind of interested in the book you mentioned and then I saw the bolded part of your post. I don’t know of anyone who has a rabid hatred of homosexual people but know a lot of people to try to deflect any and all criticism of homosexual behavior by accusing any and all who express criticism as hating homosexual people. Given your unnecessary cheap shot I am reluctant to waste any time on this book
 
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