Episcopalians and Homosexuality

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Ancedotal evidence, in addition to being unverifiable, also proves nothing. The truth is a miniscule number of homosexuals live in a long term(or even short term) monogamous relationship. The truth is homosexual behavior is almost exclusively about sex-not love(assuming it is possible for grevious sin to ever be expressed as love)Instead of being humbled by their kindness and love perhaps youn should be trying to help them save their souls by abandoning ther sinful lifestyles.
I am humbled and awed by the love I have seen between the gay men and lesbian couples I have known…I have visited them in their homes, prayed with them, eaten with them laughed and cried with them…God’s love is deeper and wider and more encompassing than we will ever know…these men and women have taught me about love and inclusiveness and “welocoming the stranger in their midst”…I will leave their souls in the hands of the God who suggested love to them with one another in the first place.
 
Classical Jewish texts do not stress the homosexual aspect of the attitude of the inhabitants of Sodom as much as their cruelty and lack of hospitality to the “stranger.” (See Jewish Encyclopedia on the importance of hospitality.)

Flavius Josephus, a Romano-Jewish historian, wrote:

Now, about this time the Sodomites, overwhelmingly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and avoided any contact with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance, and not only to uproot their city, but to blast their land so completely that it should yield neither plant nor fruit whatsoever from that time forward.

—Jewish Antiquities 1:194-195
I believe Jude over Flavius
 
I am humbled and awed by the love I have seen between the gay men and lesbian couples I have known…I have visited them in their homes, prayed with them, eaten with them laughed and cried with them…God’s love is deeper and wider and more encompassing than we will ever know…these men and women have taught me about love and inclusiveness and “welocoming the stranger in their midst”…I will leave their souls in the hands of the God who suggested love to them with one another in the first place.
Are you saying God brought them together?

Are you saying God condones there sexuality, sodomy?

I think not.

Homosexuals are called to chastity.
 
I am having trouble trying to convince an Episcopalian that practicing homosexuality is against the Lord’s will.
Blame the heretical bishops!
I I quoted scripture,
Romans chapter one should do the trick but I’m not sure if such episcopalians believe The Bible anyway.
He stated that Jesus didn’t say anything about it
Jesus didn’t need to. The people he was speaking to had read Deutronomy etc. Jesus didn’t mention beastailty either. He didn’t need to because they knew what the law said about that too. Jesus didn’t mention abortion either. He didn’t need to because they had read the ten commandments.
(I tried the Holy Trinity approach as well as St. Paul) and if it was that important He would have said something.
Their theology isn’t thology anymore.
I even tried to bring up what is going on in his church, all the splits, also to no avail…
His ‘chrurch’ wants to stay in the Anglican Communion because it gives them credibility. The rest of us want them out! As the arch bishop of Canterbury secretly supports their heretical stance, we’re waiting for the next archbishop of Canterbury to do it.

Let this person know that we want them out!
I just don’t understand how any Christian can think that practicing homosexuality is not a sin. I don’t get it.:o
They are no longer a church, they are a social club for wierd people. THey have altered the eucharist and made it in to something niether you or I would recognise.

When a Nigerian bishop went to America to ordain some people a spoks person for ECUSA called Katharine Jefferts Schori, came out with this.

‘Archbishop Akinola’s acceptance of an invitation to episcopal ministry here without any notice or prior invitation. was not in keeping with the ancient practice in most of the church, that bishops minister only within their own jurisdictions.’

An invitation to episcopal ministry here without any notice or prior invitation was not in keeping with the ancient practice in most of the church? What a sound bite! Ancient practice? We have The Bible and 2000 years of Church history that disagrees with the ordination of homosexual bishops. Ordaining homosexuals is not in keeping with the ancient practice in most of the church actually!

Furthermore, The Anglican primates agreed that the ordination of homosexual bishops was wrong and then, not in keeping with the ancient practice in most of the church, they went and ordained one!

We want them out!
 
Are you saying God brought them together?

Are you saying God condones there sexuality, sodomy?

I think not.

Homosexuals are called to chastity.
Yes, I believe that’s exactly what I wrote…I leave them in the hands of the God who suggested love to them in the first place.

I know I’m heretical, but I think it’s one of my more endearing qualities!🙂
 
Most of the gay men and women I know are from MCC and some of the Friend’s Meetings.

One lesbian woman was Clerk of the Meeting, she and her partner have been together for 40 years…they met in high school and have been together ever since.

I know an elderly gay couple who have been together over 30 years…kindest most gentle men you’d ever want to meet.

We recently buried a lesbian woman who was 80 years old…her partner had died almost 15 years ago…they met when they were in their teens…both were school teachers…her partner died in her sleep…this Friend didn’t know her partner had died until the next morning as she tried to wake her…if love exists between couples…these two experienced it…they were devoted to one another.

A lot of generalizations going on in this thread about how gay men and women can’t “love”…yet I’ve heard their stories…seen their relationships…loving…giving…devoted to one another and to the God who brought them together.

I guess I am blessed more than most to have had the privelege of knowing such wonderful people…Bless the Lord for His goodness in allowing me to know them…I am humbled by their kindness and love and mercy toward those who just don’t understand.
I have been to an MCC Church before. Let me tell you, that at first I was very impressed. But then i found out from these individuals that for the most part, they had all lived the stereotypical homosexual life and only changed once they were no longer so young and attractive. Furthermore, what you see in the MCC is really a very very small minority of gays.
 
Yes, I believe that’s exactly what I wrote…I leave them in the hands of the God who suggested love to them in the first place.

I know I’m heretical, but I think it’s one of my more endearing
qualities!🙂
God would find it more endearing if you submitted to his holy word and natural law.
 
God would find it more endearing if you submitted to his holy word and natural law.
I will put myself into His Hands…I’m very comfortable there, I will accept whatever He chooses to do with me from His Hands…I’m able to “hear” Him just fine…He makes more sense than listening to what others have to say He says.
 
I will put myself into His Hands…I’m very comfortable there, I will accept whatever He chooses to do with me from His Hands…I’m able to “hear” Him just fine…He makes more sense than listening to what others have to say He says.
Really? Jesus speaks to you? So you a saint and mystic? How did you reach such a level of sanctity?
Or are you really just listening to what you want to be true and calling that God’s voice? Remember, our conscience has to be formed according to God’s word, not our own “feelings”.
 
I am humbled and awed by the love I have seen between the gay men and lesbian couples I have known…I have visited them in their homes, prayed with them, eaten with them laughed and cried with them…God’s love is deeper and wider and more encompassing than we will ever know…these men and women have taught me about love and inclusiveness and “welocoming the stranger in their midst”…I will leave their souls in the hands of the God who suggested love to them with one another in the first place.
No one either homosexual or heterosexual is called to particpate in conjugal relations outside of marriage. That is not what love is. Since a valid marriage is not recognized for homosexual couples they cannot participate in one aspect of humaness … that is of sexuality but as you have stated they can love … just dont confuse love and sex. This holds too for single hetersoexuals … there is no difference except after marriage. While the love you describe can exist … it probably does not without the sexual component.

The burden for all of humanity, both hetersexual and homosexual, is the sexual component of their personhood should not be used outside of marriage. Does this put a seemingly larger burden on the homosexual … yes the same as the single heterosexual.

I wonder if the love would exist without the sexual component thrown in?
 
I will put myself into His Hands…I’m very comfortable there, I will accept whatever He chooses to do with me from His Hands…I’m able to “hear” Him just fine…He makes more sense than listening to what others have to say He says.
I did not realize you were a Quaker. Knowing that the above makes perfect sense. I dont agree with it but I believe it is very much in line with your faith…
 
Really? Jesus speaks to you? So you a saint and mystic? How did you reach such a level of sanctity?
Or are you really just listening to what you want to be true and calling that God’s voice? Remember, our conscience has to be formed according to God’s word, not our own “feelings”.
Of course He speaks to us…His word is written in our hearts, our spirits are joined with His Spirit, our lives are bound up with His. We are His Body…it is not any sanctity I posses to Hear Him…His grace and mercy are His gifts to all who would listen. “My sheep hear my voice…”

But to your other question…Yes I guess I am a mystic now that you mention it. Out of the Living Silence of Meeting He is always a Present Friend.🙂
 
Grace & Peace!

As an Anglican Christian and a homosexual, perhaps I can shed light on the original question. Or at least offer some insight which may be helpful to those pondering the question.

First, some background–I knew I was a homosexual (and I’ll use that term out of sympathy for those who find “gay” politically offensive but will eschew SSA as being equally politically charged) since quite young, before puberty. I attended a Baptist school and was taught that being a homosexual was abominable (though I was comforted by Dr. James Dobson’s book “Preparing for Adolescence” which claimed that it was statistically improbable for me to be a homosexual–thank you, Dr. Dobson, for years of pain). I subsequently went into deep denial and embarked on a period of radical homophobia, mixed with self-hatred, which shames me now to recall and which led to frequent contemplation of suicide and/or self-mutilation in those moments when I attempted to reconcile my sexuality with a God who I was taught hated my sexuality. It could be argued that the Roman church’s distinction between orientation and act is not and was not a particularly popular distinction to make in Baptist/Evangelical circles. But the old “love the sinner, hate the sin” was a maxim I often heard, though I wish to assure all of you who think it makes a difference to believe or espouse it that it is practically useless. My experience has been that “love the sinner hate the sin” touters make only a rhetorical distinction between person and act.

Ultimately, I came to realize that God loved me. No–I did not come to realize that God loved sin. I came to realize that God loved me. And if God loved me, I concluded that God loved all of me, including my sexuality–otherwise he would only love part of me, not all of me. And because I knew that I did not choose to be a homosexual, I came to realize that my sexuality was a fact and a gift given to me by God and as such I should accept it with gratitude. I did not make these realizations because I was feeling drawn to a life of hedonistic libertinism characterized by a lack of impulse control. I made these realizations because it was becoming increasingly impossible for me to believe in a God of Justice and Love when that Justice was characterized, according to what I was taught, by giving people a gift they would never want or choose to accept, which gift would inevitably damn them; or when that Love was characterized by being unconditional only under certain conditions. It became clearer and clearer to me that being a homosexual was not sinful, nor could it be intrinsically morally disordered as that would imply that the God who knitted me together in my mother’s womb did a disordered job. It became clearer to me that the things I took for granted about God, the things I had been taught about God, needed to be radically interrogated. If God loved me, of all people, if God could make me his son through adoption, who else was part of the family? Who else was offered a seat at the table? And who was I forgetting?

(CONTINUED…)
 
(…CONTINUED & COMPLETED)

A reading of the sayings of the Desert Fathers convinced me of the radical love of God. And this understanding (which is admittedly limited!) of the awesome, burning, terrible, glorious beautiful love of God changed my life in a number of unexpected ways (I stopped being a republican, for instance). Furthermore, a look into Biblical exegesis on the passages in the Bible which many purported to be about homosexuality were revealed, in context, to be about something else–it became clearer and clearer to me that as a culture, our taboos regarding homosexuality were being read back into scripture; that scripture dealt with a misuse of sexuality within particular contexts–cult prostitution, institutionalized pederasty, materialism/hedonism, etc; that homosexuality itself was never once mentioned in the Bible (save in spurious translations) given that the word and the understanding of sexuality of which it is a part is a product of the 19th century; that given that the institution of slavery, which is manifestly sinful, was not directly condemned in the Bible it is reasonable to conclude that cultural values and biases particular to the time of the writing of the Scriptures would be present and that these biases and prejudices are not necessarily authoritative nor indicative of moral law; that the keynote of the Gospel was Love, and not a love circumscribed by law, but a Love which fulfills and transcends law. It is a Love without limit. Though of course it is a Love which calls us to relationship, to responsibility, not license.

After some time, I found myself at home in the Anglican church which, in the US at least, seems to be actively seeking to understand just how large the table of grace really is–and not only is this reflected in the classical via media position of Anglicanism, balancing Catholic tradition with Protestant reform, but also in a real commitment to the broader questions and challenges of social justice.

Fast forward to today, and I find myself in a 9 year (going on 10) monogamous loving relationship with a really wonderful, intelligent, caring, gifted, challenging Christian man. Our relationship could hardly be defined as characterized primarily by our inordinate, disordered and hedonistic lust for each other (let me assure you, though, he’s one handsome guy). But sex is not the keynote of my love for him or his love for me. It is not, in other words, the foundation of our relationship. Have I misused my sexuality in the past? Definitely I have. I have sinned. It’s not something of which I’m proud. Am I sinning in my current relationship when I’m intimate with my partner? There’s certainly opportunity. But I don’t believe that simply being intimate with my partner is de facto sinful. Many here will probably say Yes! It is! But I don’t think so. And I firmly believe that neither the Bible nor Tradition speak in a condemning way of my relationship with my partner.

I hope that helps re: the initial question.
Prove to me were scripture condones homosexual practices/lifestyles.
Jay29, I’d be curious to see where you think the “homosexual lifestyle” and its attendant practices are mentioned in the Bible in contexts which conclusively indicate that what is being treated is the “homosexual lifestyle” alone. I think that would be very interesting. Moreover, I would be interested in you showing me a discussion in scripture of a loving and monogamous homosexual couple in which that couple is condemned for being a loving and monogamous homosexual couple. I don’t think you’ll find it. You’ll probably say, “I can’t find it because it’s impossible–such a thing as a loving and monogamous homosexual couple is impossible!” It’s alright to think that way, I suppose, though it goes against evidence to the contrary. But you thinking its impossible will not make it so. Simply because you think my relationship cannot exist doesn’t mean it will somehow vanish in a rueful puff of smoke. Simply because you don’t, won’t, or can’t comprehend the contours of this relationship (or perhaps any relationship you feel is inadequate, I don’t know) doesn’t mean that the relationship is not real. But. Be that as it may. I don’t expect I’ll have changed your mind or your convictions, nor do I think you’re a horrible person to believe as you do.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!
 
There are still a number of churches within the Episcopal Church, that like myself (an Episcopalian), hold to the clear teaching of Scripture against homosexuality.
 
Mark, great post, I will hold you in the Light for your courage and honesty…God richly bless you and your partner.
 
Jay29, I’d be curious to see where you think the “homosexual lifestyle” and its attendant practices are mentioned in the Bible in contexts which conclusively indicate that what is being treated is the “homosexual lifestyle” alone.
This about sums it up for me:

Chastity and homosexuality

[2357](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2357.htm’)😉
Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”****142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

[2359](javascript:openWindow(‘cr/2359.htm’)😉 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
 
Mark, I wish what all you said was true. It would certainly make my life alot easier. But the fact is Mark, and I think you as a fellow homosexual know this, what you have experienced with your partner is certainly the exception to the rule. I am sure you know that the homosexual community is mostly comprised of disordered, lustful, sex additcts who can’t think as deeply as you do. I tried to justify my actions using the same arguments that you do. However, the more I see the reality of the situation, the more I can understand how homosexulity is a crime against nature. My friend is taking a human sexuality course at a liberal university. Her text points out that statistically, homosexuals, for the most part, are incapable of reaching agape. I am sure you have seen this time and time again. My point is this: do you really think, by doing something that is completely against the intended purpose of sex (even from an evolutionary perspective) that you and your partner are doing something good for one another? If you do, I fear you have been deluded.
 
Man You would think that Catholics have some sort of werid obsession with homosexuality with all the talk in her about it. We can debate this until the cows come home but it doesnt mean anything is going to change. It was fun to debate about it at first but now its getting boring.
 
It became clearer and clearer to me that being a homosexual was not sinful, nor could it be intrinsically morally disordered as that would imply that the God who knitted me together in my mother’s womb did a disordered job. We live in a disordered world … look at the Beattitudes … it is counter to everything our culture holds to be the norm. The misuse of sexuality is prevelant and your attitudes toward it are suspect, not the act of loving another but the use of another for sexual gratification. Can sexuality be misused? Is the only requirement for a sexual relationhsip that I love the other person? Would you say unmarried persons (be they hetero or homosexual) need to refrain from sex? or does it just need to be amongst consenting adults? I imagine you have your ideas where sinfulness reaches into sexuality but where is that line and how did you get there? Hypothetical: A severly facially disfigured man frequents prostitutes, he pays them fairly and never mistreats them, but he knows because of what he is he may never have a normal, fufilling relationship with a women so he uses prostitutes to satisfy his normal human urges. Is what the women does sinful? How about the man’s actions? What if it is a normal, good looking guy who uses the prostitutes because a normal female relationship would impede his career? Are the two any different?

I think that a line is drawn by most people and it is purely abritrary and that we tend to put ourselves on the side of the line that is good … it is almost always someone else that is on the other side of that line?
 
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