Eradication of Violence in Muslims – A Peaceful Approach

[BelFarfalla]

No I don’t. Veri said he didn’t know of any Catholics who said the Church is wrong on abortion. I showed him some big names. They’re the tip of the iceberg. There are a LOT like them, like Catholics for Free Choice. Last I checked there aren’t many Catholics that are totally on board with the Church’s teaching on abortion.

Show the figures then.

religioustolerance.org/abo_fact2.htm

These figures show that Catholics are more likely than the average American to have an abortion. And there were 1.4 million of them here in the U.S.

We should be ashamed.

Statistics are a funny thing, they can be manipulated to support all sort of things… The link below shows a different picture of the number of Catholics who are getting abortions.

guttmacher.org/in-the-know/index.html

 

[WestonGrant]

These are not stalwarts of the faith to be admired for their faith, imo. It is shamefull to a large degree; the positions they take on many issues to include abortion.

My point is that all of these people are Catholics. There are whole bunches of other Catholics just like them.

And we should be ashamed that there are so many. We should be ashamed that people without our gifts, like the Muslims, can show us up on some things so important.

 

[Eden]

Does anyone else find it interesting that WestonGrant lists only Americans in his list of “Catholics” who politically take a pro-abortion stance? Apparently, he’s not aware that the United States makes up only 6% of the worldwide Catholic Church. So, the only significant pool of worthy Catholics to examine for attitudes on abortion come from the United States? How utterly ethnocentric!

 

[Eden]

There are whole bunches of other Catholics just like them.

“Whole bunches” would not be a legitimate statistical analysis in any journal that I’m aware of. Do you have more specific statistics to share about abortion and the worldwide Church?

 

[Eden]

I’m looking at the title of this thread and it has nothing to do with abortion. This really should be its own thread, but:

On this list:

johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd.html

7 out of the 10 countries with the lowest rates of legal abortions per pregnancy were predominantly Catholic countries.

And on this list

johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp333pd2.html

The predominantly Catholic nations’ percentages are:

Austria: 3%

Chile: .02%

Italy: 18%

Malta: 1.7%

Mexico: .2%

Portugal: .8%

Puerto Rico: 2.2%

Spain: 15.8%

Venezuela: .8%

Only two Islamic nations appear on the list:

Bahrain: 11.5%

Qatar: 1.3%

One Islamic country with reliable statistics that was not on the link above is Turkey. According to this website:

findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3876/is_200106/ai_n8957168

The abortion rate in Turkey is very high, although it has dropped from 45 per 1,000 live births in 1988 to 25 in 1998 (from 24% to 16%).

 

[paarsurrey]

And fight them until there is no more fitnah* (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimoon** (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)
( Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #193)

Hi
The interpretation of verses done in the brackets is wrong. It were the non-believers of Mecca who started persecution of the peaceful Muslims, it were they who did not allow free will to the Muslims. They made a social boycott of the Muslims , they beat them, they looted them, when they migrated to Abyssinia ( Habsha) they chased them to bring them back for further persecution, when Muslim finally migrated to Medina, they did not leave them in peace there.
So *fitnah is persecution and not to allow free will and to keep them subjugated.
“Disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah” this is wrong, even the non-believers of Mecca believed in Allah, Muhammad did not invent Allah; it is Allah who created Muhammad. The correct meaning is that every body ( the Muslims and non-believers of Mecca) is to worship Allah according to his concept of Allah or what he thinks worship of Allah is to be done; no compulsion or physical interference.
** Az-Zalimoon- the correct interpretation would be the persecutors.
The meanings of the verses are crystal clear to an unbiased person, no confusion; so no need of twisting the facts.
Thanks

 

[burnside]

Verisimilitude,

But on abortion, you don’t see much in the way of it in the Muslim world. They are having children not killing them. Catholics are supposed to be against it but they kill them as much as non-Catholics. So in practice, you might say Muslims are better Catholics than Catholics .

I think that is because they don’t want their numbers to decline,not a lot to do with the immorality of abortion.

 

[WestonGrant]

Come on. Look, I’m not saying that all Catholics are worse than Muslims. I know Malta is fantastic (Catholic). But if you can’t see that Catholics by and large aren’t as serious about their faith as Muslims are then we’ll never agree. It looks obvious to me.

It isn’t just about abortion. But, say, how many Catholics pray multiple times every day?

Their faith has many serious errors and some of them have wicked ideas about violence with suicide bombers and all. I know all that.

But just be fair about it. And you know what, alot of people say Catholics are against contraception because the Church wants to force more Catholics to be born.

 

[paarsurrey]

Look, I’m not saying that all Catholics are worse than Muslims.

Hi
Please don’t mind; I agree with you that there could be a Catholic worse than a Muslim as there could be a Muslim worse than a Catholic. It is the truth of beliefs and good actions that make the difference; not the nomenclature necessarily.
Thanks

 

[burnside]

Come on. Look, I’m not saying that all Catholics are worse than Muslims. I know Malta is fantastic (Catholic). But if you can’t see that Catholics by and large aren’t as serious about their faith as Muslims are then we’ll never agree. It looks obvious to me.

It isn’t just about abortion. But, say, how many Catholics pray multiple times every day?

Their faith has many serious errors and some of them have wicked ideas about violence with suicide bombers and all. I know all that.

But just be fair about it. And you know what, alot of people say Catholics are against contraception because the Church wants to force more Catholics to be born.

Come on over to Scotland and check out how many Asian shops
close down in order to go to the mosque.

I will grant you muslims perhaps pray frequently.I remember someone was objecting to taxpayers money being spent on facilities to allow muslims to wash their feet at a university.It was justified on the grounds that they were using the wash-hand basins that people were supposed to wash their hands and face in.

It was only about the 1950’s that Protestants started vto have smaller families than Catholics and,since the 1950’s,Catholics in the West have been catching up.

 

[WestonGrant]

Paarsurrey and Burnside, I agree with both of you. I judge a person by what he does and not by what he says he is.

And I love Scotland. Know any Grants over there? I know that has nothing to do with the conversation but it had to be said.

A Kilt-ic high five to you!

 

[BelFarfalla]

Come on. Look, I’m not saying that all Catholics are worse than Muslims. I know Malta is fantastic (Catholic). But if you can’t see that Catholics by and large aren’t as serious about their faith as Muslims are then we’ll never agree. It looks obvious to me.

Having lived in Muslim countries… no Muslims are not more serious about their faith then Catholics. In many places they are forced to make a show of things like praying 5 times a day. Doing something one is forced to do at the threat of punishment to include death is not real devotion or sencetery. Until all the threats are lifted, we will never know how serious their faith is will we?

In Muslim countries things that go agaisnt their religion abound… prostitution, sex slavery, vacation marriages to children, ponography, alchol usage, etc. Just because Muslim countries enforce a false piety and paint a pretty picture does not make the illussion real.

It isn’t just about abortion. But, say, how many Catholics pray multiple times every day?

Do you really think that praying multiple times a day, when it is forced, is really a judgement of one’s pety?

Their faith has many serious errors and some of them have wicked ideas about violence with suicide bombers and all. I know all that.

But just be fair about it. And you know what, alot of people say Catholics are against contraception because the Church wants to force more Catholics to be born.

So what would this prove even if it were true. The Church cannot force anyone to have sex to have more babies. It may come as a huge surprise to you, but it is a law of nature that sex leads to babies. The only issue is whether or not it is moral to kill those babies. In ancient times parents who did not want the baby killed it after it was born. Now we have the medical and chemical ability to kill it before its born. There is difference. It is still murder. Most forms of contraception do not prevent the fertilizatino of an egg, it kills a newly fertilized egg… hence it is just one more form of abortion.

 

[WestonGrant]

Bel, I was talking to Burnside with the point about having babies, not you. He said that Muslims have babies so they can increase their numbers. People say the same about Catholics.

This is the second merry-go-round I’ve been on today and I’m not really good with rides that go around in circles. So I’m leaving for the grille. It’s the 4th of July for Pete’s sake!

Peace to everyone.

 

[BelFarfalla]

Bel, I was talking to Burnside with the point about having babies, not you. He said that Muslims have babies so they can increase their numbers. People say the same about Catholics.

This is the second merry-go-round I’ve been on today and I’m not really good with rides that go around in circles. So I’m leaving for the grille. It’s the 4th of July for Pete’s sake!

Peace to everyone.

This is an open forum. In an open forum all discussions are considered to be open to all people. If you want a private conversation using pm’s or email would make more sense.

 

[burnside]

Paarsurrey and Burnside, I agree with both of you. I judge a person by what he does and not by what he says he is.

And I love Scotland. Know any Grants over there? I know that has nothing to do with the conversation but it had to be said.

A Kilt-ic high five to you!

Yes,Weston,i did work with Hugh Grant,now deceased.He was sixty when i was a twenty year old.Now i’m the elderly guy.He had 3 sisters,two of whom ran a shop and the other looked after the housework while he worked with me on the Railway Network.
Again,like myself, they never married.
In addition,we used to have a Family Doctor,John Grant.There was another Doctor Lionel Grant in the same area(Glasgow’s East End),but i didn’t know him personally.

 

[burnside]

Having lived in Muslim countries… no Muslims are not more serious about their faith then Catholics. In many places they are forced to make a show of things like praying 5 times a day. Doing something one is forced to do at the threat of punishment to include death is not real devotion or sencetery. Until all the threats are lifted, we will never know how serious their faith is will we?

In Muslim countries things that go agaisnt their religion abound… prostitution, sex slavery, vacation marriages to children, ponography, alchol usage, etc. Just because Muslim countries enforce a false piety and paint a pretty picture does not make the illussion real.

Do you really think that praying multiple times a day, when it is forced, is really a judgement of one’s pety?

Their faith has many serious errors and some of them have wicked ideas about violence with suicide bombers and all. I know all that.

So what would this prove even if it were true. The Church cannot force anyone to have sex to have more babies. It may come as a huge surprise to you, but it is a law of nature that sex leads to babies. The only issue is whether or not it is moral to kill those babies. In ancient times parents who did not want the baby killed it after it was born. Now we have the medical and chemical ability to kill it before its born. There is difference. It is still murder. Most forms of contraception do not prevent the fertilizatino of an egg, it kills a newly fertilized egg… hence it is just one more form of abortion.

I agree,especially the bit about parents in ancient times killing a baby they did not want after birth.Some years ago,i was shocked by a story that came out of China.Young girls,abandoned and disabled,because of the one child policy.I had thought the chinese,if they weren’t communist they were christian,so they didn’t have this muslim preference for boys who would carry on their business whereas they had to pay a dowry for a girl and she was lost to her husband’s family.I couldn’t have been more wrong.
These chinese girls were abandoned and disabled because of botched abortions.The parents,already having a female child,tried again in the hope of getting a boy.It would turn out to be another girl and they couldn’t get a legal abortion or the authorities knew they had defied the one child policy.A child who survived the botched abortion was not only the wrong sex,but was disabled as well,so she was abandoned.
Feminists in the West,probably with communist sympathies,who were usually very vociferous about women’s rights,had little or nothing to say about what was going on in China.These feminists have no concerns whatsoever about the fact that,in my country, we are starting to become a grey-haired population.I think that is because they intend flooding countries like mine with young immigrants and,when necessary,they will force people to have children by some kind of penalty.

 

[BelFarfalla]

I agree, especially the bit about parents in ancient times killing a baby they did not want after birth. Some years agonic was shocked by a story that came out of China. Young girls, abandoned and disabled, because of the one child policy. I had thought the Chinese, if they weren’t communist they were Christian, so they didn’t have this Muslim preference for boys who would carry on their business whereas they had to pay a dowry for a girl and she was lost to her husband’s family. I couldn’t have been more wrong.

Most civilizations have always had a preference for male children. China is no exception. When a girl gets married she leaves her family to live with her husband and his family. So she is a loss to her birth family. They raise her, put lots of time and love into her. Then she leaves. In many societies the girl is totally lost to her birth family. They can only see her with the permission of her husband. Sons on the other hand stay with their birth family. They are the retirement plan for the son’s parents. A couple who has many sons can expect to live very well in retirement. All of the sons are required to take care of them financially and all of their daughter-in-laws are required to do their bidding. A couple, who has no son, has no retirement plan. This is the problem in China; they mandate only one child but have done nothing to change the age old customs of extended families take care of each other.

These Chinese girls were abandoned and disabled because of botched abortions. The parents, already having a female child, tried again in the hope of getting a boy. It would turn out to be another girl and they couldn’t get a legal abortion or the authorities knew they had defied the one child policy. A child who survived the botched abortion was not only the wrong sex, but was disabled as well, so she was abandoned.

Feminists in the West, probably with communist sympathies, who were usually very vociferous about women’s rights, had little or nothing to say about what was going on in China. These feminists have no concerns whatsoever about the fact that, in my country, we are starting to become a grey-haired population. I think that is because they intend flooding countries like mine with young immigrants and, when necessary, they will force people to have children by some kind of penalty.
I agree. There is a particular breed of feminists who seem to think that having children is somehow unnatural…. So we should all just kill it. I know that’s a bit of an exaggeration but I’ve spoken to some who are that nuts. Many Muslims I speak to laugh at countries with declining birth rates… Mostly in Europe. They say that we have a sick society as evidenced by the fact that we are killing ourselves off with abortions and birth control. They predict that if they are just patient they will inherit Europe. That the white race it killing itself off. There is some validity to this.
However there is another side to the coin. Westerners are having fewer children and take better care of and educate those we have better. We are more concerned about quality of life not the quantity of babies. Look at the mess in 3rd world countries where they are producing babies at alarming rates. Hundreds of thousands of children a year die of preventable deceases and starvation. What is that point of even having those babies? Why not only have those that can be cared for? Most wars are the results of population pressures and lack of resources to take care of the population. It seems to be nature’s brutal way to reduce population. So they are having babies for cannon fodder and to die from preventable conditions.
A huge part of what has happened in the west is that we are living longer and we are expecting the youth to pay for our retirement. The world population cannot keep growing. It needs to stabilize or even decrease. At this point war, famine and petulance is the only thing that will make this happen as good sense has not gripped most of the world. Look at Europe, Canada and the USA. We are being overrun by people from 3rd world countries who are stressing our systems to a breaking point. Things are going to break if we are not careful.

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey and Burnside, I agree with both of you. I judge a person by what he does and not by what he says he is.
And I love Scotland. Know any Grants over there? I know that has nothing to do with the conversation but it had to be said.
A Kilt-ic high five to you!

Hi
I have never been to Scotland, I hear it is a beutiful place, all greenary. One of my cousins lives there.
Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad 1835-1908, the PromisedMessiahImamMahdi adds following argument in his book “Jesus in India” alislam.org/library/books…dia/index.html

“It is worth noting also that, as at that time all the people were prejudiced against Islam, and as the opposing people were scheming to destroy Islam, which they thought was a new religion and the followers of which were only a small community, and as everyone was anxious to see the Muslims destroyed early or disrupted so as not to leave any chance of their further growth and development, the Muslims at that time were obstructed in the smallest matters, and anyone from any tribe who accepted Islam and became a Muslim was either killed at once by his tribe or lived in perpetual danger. At a time like this, God Almighty, taking pity on Muslim converts, had imposed on the bigoted rulers a penalty, namely, that they should become subservient to Islam, and thus open the door of freedom for Islam. This was meant to remove the obstructions in the way of those who wished to accept the Faith; it was God’s compassion for the world, and it harmed no one. It is evident, however, that non-Muslim rulers of to-day do not interfere with Islam; they do not ban the essential Islamic practices. They do not kill new Muslims, they do not put them into prison or torture them; why then should Islam raise its sword against them?
It is obvious that Islam has never advocated compulsion: if the Holy Quran, the books of Hadith and historical records are carefully examined and, as far as possible, studied or listened to thoughtfully, it will be realised with certainty that the charge that Islam wielded the sword to propagate the Faith with force is an utterly unfounded and shameful charge against Islam. Such a charge against Islam is made by people who have not read the Quran, the Hadith and the reliable histories of Islam in a spirit of detachment, but have made free use of falsehood and have brought wrong charges against it. I know, however, that the time is near when those who are hungry and thirsty for Truth will be enlightened as to what reality there is in these charges. Can we ever describe that Faith as a faith of compulsion, when the Holy Book, the Quran, clearly directs that there is no compulsion in religion, that it is not permissible to use compulsion in religion, that it is not permissible to use compulsion or force in getting anyone to join Islam? Can we accuse that great Prophet of using force against others, who, day and night for thirteen years, exhorted all his Companions in Mecca not to return evil for the evil of the enemy, but to forbear and forgive? When, however, the mischief of the enemy went to extremes and when everybody started exerting himself for wiping out Islam, the Jealous God thought it fit that the people who had wielded the sword should be annihilated by the sword. Except for this the Holy Quran has not approved of compulsion. If compulsion had been approved of by Islam, the Companions of our Holy Prophet (peace and the blessings of God be upon him), in moments of trial, would not have behaved like people of sincere and genuine faith. Yet, the loyalty and faithfulness of the Companions of our Master, the Holy Prophet (peace be on him), is a matter which I hardly need to mention.
It is no secret that among them are examples of loyalty and steadfastness the parallel of which it is difficult to find in the annals of other nations; this band of the faithful did not waver in their loyalty and steadfastness even under the shadow of the sword. On the other hand, in the company of their Great and Holy Prophet, they gave proof of that steadfastness which no man is ever able to give unless his heart and his bosom are lit up with the light of true faith. There is, in short, no compulsion in Islam. Wars in Islam fall under three categories: (1) defensive wars, i.e. war by way of self-protection; (2) punitive wars, i.e. blood for blood; (3) war to secure freedom, i.e. with a view to break the power of those who kill those who accept Islam. Therefore, when there is no direction in Islam that anyone should be made to join it by compulsion or by the threat to kill, it is absolutely absurd to await the appearance of any bloody Mahdi or a bloody Messiah. It can never be that there should appear in this world, against the Quranic teachings, a man who would use the sword to make people Muslims.”
Thanks

 

[Subrosa]

DeNile is the world’s longest river…