Error Begets Error

[benjohnson]

Ben,

Likewise, not to be a stinker, but just by the first portion of your response you have disqualified yourself. Historically speaking, the Lutheran church did not exist prior to Martin Luther.

Remember, we’re really not “Luthernan” - we’re the Evangelische Kirche. Being called Lutheran was an insult - as if we followed a man. I think it was a mistake, to have taken that name as out own.

We don’t view ourselves as a split, but a continuation of the church.

That I mention other Lutheran churches does not diminish our claim, just is if you mention the Orthodox church doesn’t diminish your claim. Remember, our Othodox friends view the western church as splitting off from them.

Now, having said that, I do recognize you as a fellow Christian, a brother in faith in Jesus Christ by virtue of your baptism.

Thank you! And with joy, I recognize you as a fellow brother in Christ, and long to kneel at the same alter with you - and not just in sprit.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben…what of Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope?

Of course I agree with it

But… with good Popes like Benedict XVI, it makes our objections a bit harder to voice.

I’m not certain how we view the primacy of Bishop of Rome, but that he has universal jurisdiction is a bridge too far for not only us, but for the Eastern Orthodox.

As for dogma, I don’t have too an issue with the recent ones about the BVM. I really really hope that the Catholic church doesn’t pronounce the dogma of the BVM as Mediatrix of All Graces going forward - I would say that would be too much for us Lutherans to ever come to terms with if understood as how I think it would be.

 

[Tomster]

Deal.

However. . . “both our churches”??? How many Bodies of Christ are there? “A clear path for salvation” ???

It is very difficult to know what the reformers of the 16th century understood by the faith that justifies, for we find among them no precise definitions, and especially no uniform notions of it. Their texts, when compared, leave a strong impression of obscurity and incoherence. The leaders of Protestantism were indeed agreed in denying that a formless faith is a true faith; but as they wished to eliminate the intellectual element from the act of faith, while nevertheless leaving it certitude, their embarrassment in trying to define their special faith was extreme. If they said with Calvin that faith is “an unshaken and certain knowledge of divine good will towards us,” they had to make long commentaries in order to explain that such an act proceeds from the heart and not from the mind, and they did not know where to locate the reality of this faith, the object of which, at the moment when it was perceived as existing, did not yet exist. If they preferred Luther’s definition: “a certain and profound confidence in the divine goodness and in the grace manifested and known by the Word of God,” it was impossible to say how this confidence can be certain, unless it be admitted that it is itself preceded by an act of intellectual faith. We have no right to expect any greater clearness and precision from modern Protestants.

Ben,

I am glad we have agreement on the above statement.

Now, take a good look at the following and tell me if this does or doesn’t resonate inside of you. This is a continuation of the above statement.

In contrast to these fluctuations of interpretations, let us state the unchanging doctrine of the Catholic Church, (capital “C” as opposed to small “c”), as formulated by the 1st Vatican Council.

“Faith is a supernatural virtue, by which, through the influx and with the aid of grace, we believe those things which have been revealed, to be true, not because of their intrinsic truth, accessible to the natural powers of reason, but because of the authority of God Himself who reveals them and who can neither deceive nor be deceived.”

Faith is not a pure intuition, a mystical tendency towards an object more suspected than known; it presupposes preaching; it is the yielding of the mind to divine testimony. Faith is opposed to sight, both as regards the object known and the manner of knowing; one is immediate and intuitive, the other takes place through an intermediate agent. Nevertheless, faith is not blind; it is ready to give a reason for itself, and aspires always to more clearness. It is closely united, on the hand, to charity and hope, with which it forms an inseparable trio, and, on the other handto obedience and the conversion of heart. Faith, however firm and unshakable it is in its adhesion, has nevertheless degrees, and can increase in intensity and perfection.

Now, contrast that with the statement I gave to you earlier, the statement we both agreed on.

 

[Tomster]

Remember, we’re really not “Luthernan” - we’re the Evangelische Kirche. Being called Lutheran was an insult - as if we followed a man. I think it was a mistake, to have taken that name as out own.

We don’t view ourselves as a split, but a continuation of the church.

That I mention other Lutheran churches does not diminish our claim, just is if you mention the Orthodox church doesn’t diminish your claim. Remember, our Othodox friends view the western church as splitting off from them.

Thank you! And with joy, I recognize you as a fellow brother in Christ, and long to kneel at the same alter with you - and not just in sprit.

 

[Tomster]

Remember, we’re really not “Luthernan” - we’re the Evangelische Kirche. Being called Lutheran was an insult - as if we followed a man. I think it was a mistake, to have taken that name as out own.

We don’t view ourselves as a split, but a continuation of the church.

That I mention other Lutheran churches does not diminish our claim, just is if you mention the Orthodox church doesn’t diminish your claim. Remember, our Othodox friends view the western church as splitting off from them.

Thank you! And with joy, I recognize you as a fellow brother in Christ, and long to kneel at the same alter with you - and not just in sprit.

Ben,

“Evangelical” it is. Thanks for the clarification.

I pray sincerely for the day that all may be one for that is Our Lord’s will. May it be done and soon.

 

[Tomster]

Of course I agree with it

But… with good Popes like Benedict XVI, it makes our objections a bit harder to voice.

I’m not certain how we view the primacy of Bishop of Rome, but that he has universal jurisdiction is a bridge too far for not only us, but for the Eastern Orthodox.

As for dogma, I don’t have too an issue with the recent ones about the BVM. I really really hope that the Catholic church doesn’t pronounce the dogma of the BVM as Mediatrix of All Graces going forward - I would say that would be too much for us Lutherans to ever come to terms with if understood as how I think it would be.

Actually there is a votive Mass to Our Lady, Mediatrix of All Graces in the Traditional Rite. The term Mediatrix of All Graces is bound up with the doctrine of The Mystical Body of Christ. The explanation of it is a piece of cake and takes absolutely nothing away from Christ. It has to do with the Incarnation and the Communion of Saints. It is sublime!

 

[Tomster]

Remember, we’re really not “Luthernan” - we’re the Evangelische Kirche. Being called Lutheran was an insult - as if we followed a man. I think it was a mistake, to have taken that name as out own.

We don’t view ourselves as a split, but a continuation of the church.

That I mention other Lutheran churches does not diminish our claim, just is if you mention the Orthodox church doesn’t diminish your claim. Remember, our Othodox friends view the western church as splitting off from them.

Thank you! And with joy, I recognize you as a fellow brother in Christ, and long to kneel at the same alter with you - and not just in sprit.

Ben,

Historically speaking, what is now know as the Orthodox Church, divided as it may be, once was strongly united to the Chair of Peter.

 

[Tomster]

Of course I agree with it

But… with good Popes like Benedict XVI, it makes our objections a bit harder to voice.

I’m not certain how we view the primacy of Bishop of Rome, but that he has universal jurisdiction is a bridge too far for not only us, but for the Eastern Orthodox.

As for dogma, I don’t have too an issue with the recent ones about the BVM. I really really hope that the Catholic church doesn’t pronounce the dogma of the BVM as Mediatrix of All Graces going forward - I would say that would be too much for us Lutherans to ever come to terms with if understood as how I think it would be.

Ben,

In regards to the Bishop of Rome having universal jurisdiction.

Without doubt to all the Apostles assembled together was given the power of binding and loosing. Yet to show, with regard to this power, a certain precedence, it was given first to Peter and to Peter alone. It was so given in order to show that from him this power descends to others. For this same reason to Peter alone Christ said: “Confirm the brethren” (Luke 22:32) and “Feed My sheep” (John 21:17).

These last words, spoken after the Resurrection, confirm the promise of the Master, despite Peter’s denial of Him, and definitely make Peter the Prince of the Apostles. As the bishop is head of his particular church, so it is necessary that the Universal Church have one sole Head. The Church is a Body. It has but one Spirit, but one faith: “One Body, one Spirit, one faith” (Ephesians 4:4-5). If the unity of the Church were not preserved by the word of one alone, it would be rent by dessension and falsehood.

 

[benjohnson]

Actually there is a votive Mass to Our Lady, Mediatrix of All Graces in the Traditional Rite. The term Mediatrix of All Graces is bound up with the doctrine of The Mystical Body of Christ. The explanation of it is a piece of cake and takes absolutely nothing away from Christ. It has to do with the Incarnation and the Communion of Saints. It is sublime!

If I’m uderstanding the doctrine properly as it is now, we Lutherans should not have a problem with it. It it becomes dogma and is defined narrowly, then it would tend to be a problem. That our Catholic friends adore the BVM is something that Lutherans should rejoice and learn from, while maintaining their Lutheran love for the Gospel.

 

[Love4All]

Of course I agree with it

But… with good Popes like Benedict XVI, it makes our objections a bit harder to voice.

I’m not certain how we view the primacy of Bishop of Rome, but that he has universal jurisdiction is a bridge too far for not only us, but for the Eastern Orthodox.

As for dogma, I don’t have too an issue with the recent ones about the BVM. I really really hope that the Catholic church doesn’t pronounce the dogma of the BVM as Mediatrix of All Graces going forward - I would say that would be too much for us Lutherans to ever come to terms with if understood as how I think it would be.

It seems like you are saying here that you reserve the right of final judgment on the truth of matters of doctrine. That is not the Catholic spirit. Perhaps that is why you are Lutheran or Evangelical or what have you, but the spirit of Catholicism says that Jesus taught us the truth, and truth is not a matter of anyone’s opinion. The pronouncement of Dogma in regard to any proposition is simply the Church’s declaration that this proposition is, and always has been, the truth. Why would anyone wish to reserve judgment on such matters, except in the spirit of rebellion against the truth?

 

[benjohnson]

It seems like you are saying here that you reserve the right of final judgment on the truth of matters of doctrine.

I appologise for my writings if they indicate that - I don’t have any judgement in the matter at all. I try to do as the church tells me to do,

While discussing theology, we have room for conjecture and error. But in our practice as Christians, we are given the truth and should be thankful for it. Even our desire for the truth is God given.

Perhaps my posts should have a disclaimer that I’m more than likely to be wrong.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I appologise for my writings if they indicate that - I don’t have any judgement in the matter at all. I try to do as the church tells me to do,

While discussing theology, we have room for conjecture and error. But in our practice as Christians, we are given the truth and should be thankful for it. Even our desire for the truth is God given.

Perhaps my posts should have a disclaimer that I’m more than likely to be wrong.

Where do I get one of those? Lol

 

[PRmerger]

I assume the quote from St. Augustine is this one: “Tenenda est nobis christiana religio, et eius Ecclesiae communicatio quae catholica est, et catholica nominatur, non solum a suis, verum etiam ab omnibus inimicis.”

Yep.

I read this more as an admonition that the christian church is universal, in opposition to the followers of the prophet Mani.

Yes, it could have been meant as that.

But it also is apropos to all folks who want to claim the name “Catholic” for themselves but who, if they are men of integrity, would be hesitant to point someone sincerely asking for directions to the local Catholic Church to their own “catholic” church.

 

[benjohnson]

But it also is apropos to all folks who want to claim the name “Catholic” for themselves but who, if they are men of integrity, would be hesitant to point someone sincerely asking for directions to the local Catholic Church to their own “catholic” church.

Maybe we should use the Greek καθολικην or oven the English version of the origional phrase “kath’ holou” when we say it it so as to maintain the meaning as an ajective.

Murky meaning is also why I use the German for the name of our church instead of English. ‘Evangelical’ has picked up some rather unfortunate meaning in our American culture beyond the orientiation toward the Gospel.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe we should use the Greek καθολικην or oven the English version of the origional phrase “kath’ holou” when we say it it so as to maintain the meaning as an ajective.

Murky meaning is also why I use the German for the name of our church instead of English. ‘Evangelical’ has picked up some rather unfortunate meaning in our American culture beyond the orientiation toward the Gospel.

Sure. I’d give that a

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sure. I’d give that a

Still kind of confusing lol

 

[benjohnson]

Still kind of confusing lol

I certainly understand!

We’re so used to thinking of “Catholic” meaning those good people who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, that the idea that it’s an adjective can be quite startling.

But it’s a very interesting adjective - kath’ holou simply comes from kata and holos. Kata meaning “down from a higher plane, or drown from something higher” and holos meaning “whole or entire”

In modern speech, it would mean “universal, or encompassing all”.

But look at the Greek meaning - it’s means more the English can convey. Sort of a universality from a better, or higher, place. Almost like God surrounding the whole world with his universal sacrifice.

 

[BA11]

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/error-begets-error

Another great article from Tim Staples. Any thoughts?

I think Tim Staples is an unstanding guy who stands up for his fath in an admirable way and truly loves Christ. t’s a well-articulated piece. I disagree with a lot of what Mr. Staples believes but I respect him. He was a catalyst behind me looking into the catholic church more, and I simply didnt find the evidence he uses t support his conversion convincing enough to support such a move for me. Nothing wrong with him as a person though.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I certainly understand!

We’re so used to thinking of “Catholic” meaning those good people who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome, that the idea that it’s an adjective can be quite startling.

But it’s a very interesting adjective - kath’ holou simply comes from kata and holos. Kata meaning “down from a higher plane, or drown from something higher” and holos meaning “whole or entire”

In modern speech, it would mean “universal, or encompassing all”.

But look at the Greek meaning - it’s means more the English can convey. Sort of a universality from a better, or higher, place. Almost like God surrounding the whole world with his universal sacrifice.

I understand what you are saying. For Catholics, the One, Catholic, Holy and Apostolic Church is the Catholic Church. I believe a few Protestant denominations are a member of the OCHA Church but just not in full Communion. A friend and I had this talk once before (the retired ELCA pastor) and we agreed to agree part way as I will with you.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I think Tim Staples is an unstanding guy who stands up for his fath in an admirable way and truly loves Christ. t’s a well-articulated piece. I disagree with a lot of what Mr. Staples believes but I respect him. He was a catalyst behind me looking into the catholic church more, and I simply didnt find the evidence he uses t support his conversion convincing enough to support such a move for me. Nothing wrong with him as a person though.

I really enjoy Mr. Staples and his material. I can present certain topics which can be heard to follow but there are many more apologist on Catholic.com to gain reading material from.

If he makes you research the Church then he is doing his job.