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Isaiah45_9
Guest
Daniel is probably referring to:What are you talking about?
A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope - Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald - 1537.
Articles 39-42…
- Status
A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope - Treatise Compiled by the Theologians Assembled at Smalcald - 1537.
Articles 39-42…
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benjohnson
Guest
I would say being a Lutheran is a narrow road - in that the Gospel is preached so thoroughly that we don’t have many excuses. That God seems to grant us steadfastness in our hearts is a cause for rejoicing.
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joe370
Guest
Oh. Wow!
I think you and JonNC are the only two friends of mine that are willing to admit that the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Catholic Church. How about - into all truth, as per John 16:13? Or am I pushing my luck…LOL…
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benjohnson
Guest
If we Lutheran say we have more evidence of Holy Sprit working in our church, perhaps we shouldn’t gloat, for that may only mean that there’s more to correct.Oh. Wow!
In seriousness though, I don’t have to deny to love that God has for your church in order to claim that my church is guided by his love as well. To say that the Holy Sprit is not upon all of, would be to deny grace itself.
I’m not sure if Lutherans quite require perfection in how we view the validity of the church. If so, by recognizing that the church will stumble from time to time, we can recognize that it’s not God that is stumbling but ourselves.
How about this: I don’t think the Catholic Church has the singular and unique charism of infallibility, but I pray that God leads us all to the Church that does, and of course, Catholics would be a part of that church.
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joe370
Guest
That all seems reasonable.If we Lutheran say we have more evidence of Holy Sprit working in our church, perhaps we shouldn’t gloat, for that may only mean that there’s more to correct.
In seriousness though, I don’t have to deny to love that God has for your church in order to claim that my church is guided by his love as well. To say that the Holy Sprit is not upon all of, would be to deny grace itself.
I’m not sure if Lutherans quite require perfection in how we view the validity of the church. If so, by recognizing that the church will stumble from time to time, we can recognize that it’s not God that is stumbling but ourselves.
How about this: I don’t think the Catholic Church has the singular and unique charism of infallibility, but I pray that God leads us all to the Church that does, and of course, Catholics would be a part of that church.
The only question that bothered me as a former Lutheran, was: how can I know the full truth about the Eucharist. Some insist that it is merely a symbolic remembrance; others, like Christians belonging to the Lutheran Church, agree with the Catholic Church with the exception of the sacrifice of Mass. If no one church possesses the singular and unique charism of infallibility, thanks to God, then how can I know which church is teaching correctly about the Eucharist?
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benjohnson
Guest
Here’s where Lutheran theology differs in a subtle way - we say we can’t know the full truth about the Eucharist, in that it’s a mystery.That all seems reasonable.
I don’t think we disagree with Catholics in that the Eucharist is the true body and true blood of Christ. We know this because Jesus told us: “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” That so many Christians get this wrong despite scripture and tradition means we have our work cut out for us!
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joe370
Guest
Hey Ben. Quick question before I catch some shut-eye: In order for a sacrifice to be valid e.g. the old testament, blood was required. If in fact the Eucharist, upon the words of consecration, becomes Jesus’ blood, (something you and I believe) offered up to the Father, (just as the animal’s blood was offered up in the OT) shouldn’t it be safe to refer to the Eucharist as a sacrifice of Jesus’ Blood? Of course you and I agree with the whole once-and-for-all thing…
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aidanbradypop
Guest
Thank you for posting Daniel. Your beliefs are closer to what I mostly hear from Lutherans in my area.
Many are extremely anti Catholic Church and believe that the Lutheran Church is the Church Christ instituted on earth. They believe that Catholic Church is so corrupt and lost the Holy Spirit’s direction many years back. They are completely against the Chair of Peter.
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Love4All
Guest
Who is “the church?”
It seems it would depend on whether the Church had already settled the matter, which leads back to my first question.
Do you think God is unknowable?
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Daniel_Stinson
Guest
Yes, but this site moderator has already sent me a private message, directing me not to comment further on the topic. This topic apparently violates the terms and conditions of this site as “Contempt for Catholicism” as established by CAF.
At some point in the future, an anti-Christ will emerge with a great authority over “a” Church that’s believed to exist among a city on “seven hills”. It could be an Islamic invasion of “such” Church or it could be internal corruption of the “Church” itself.
Lutherans in general have backed off this stance quite a bit, but are very watchful and concerned with papal authority. The 18th Ecumenical Council (5th Lateran Council) decision to denounce the long standing policy of conciliarism lead Luther and other Catholic priests to denounce that position in 1517 as heretical, and inspired the " A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope".
Biblically, Moses and Aaron served together and as equals to 70-Elders of the Church, all anointed under the oil of the Holy Spirit. The 12-Apostles were required by Jesus to go out 2-by-2 to rebuke the other if one should sin against the Word of God; and they established 72-Elders of their equal, who also grew the Church. David served with, not apart from Nathan. Elijah served with Elisha. The Angle of the Lord (Jesus) is seen directly accompanying Abraham. All 12-Apostles equally shared and partook in the Holy Spirit, the responsibility of growing Jesus’ Church. The 1st one true Church of St. Peter was in Antioch (Turkish boarder with Syria), and known as the Center of Christendom for centuries, long before Rome. A pope was assigned to Antioch, Constantinople, Alexandria, and Rome at one point under the Ecumenical Council of Bishops. The Western Catholic Church had three popes at Avignon, Rome, and Constantinople. Not until the conciliarism was abolished in 1517, was it officially doctrinal to restrict the number of popes a Ecumenical Council of Bishops could restrict to only one. The 1st Vatican Council had to make a public ruling that the Pope of 1854 had the authority to declare himself the 1st to have infallibility.
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benjohnson
Guest
The church I attend to receive the sacraments, hear the gospel, and play out my small contributing role.
God reveals himself in his Son Jesus Christ. Stubborn fool that I am, If I receive Him, and know a portion of God’s will, it is by God’s Grace. If I think I have the ability to know Him, that is also by God’s Grace.
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benjohnson
Guest
I think Lutheran theology is that Christ died once on the cross, so we would say that the Eucharist is a re-presentation of that sacrifice, the first presentation being at the Last Supper.Hey Ben. Quick question before I catch some shut-eye: In order for a sacrifice to be valid e.g. the old testament, blood was required. If in fact the Eucharist, upon the words of consecration, becomes Jesus’ blood, (something you and I believe) offered up to the Father, (just as the animal’s blood was offered up in the OT) shouldn’t it be safe to refer to the Eucharist as a sacrifice of Jesus’ Blood? Of course you and I agree with the whole once-and-for-all thing…
Were Lutherans tend to shy away from the word is that we don’t want to the idea to be mistaken for idea that Christ was sacrificed as an appeasement to a wrath-filled Father.
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Daniel_Stinson
Guest
For a Lutheran to be anti-Catholic would be a contradiction of their own faith. Especially in simple terms where “catholic” from Greek is simply universal, as in an universal acceptance of Christ Jesus as our Savior.
Lutheranism isn’t based on denouncing Peter, but it isn’t about elevating Peter above all others either. Jesus didn’t have one apostle, he had Twelve Apostles, and Lutherans look upon all Twelve Apostles as playing instrumental rolls in evangelizing the Judeo-Christian faith, so that God’s Church may exits as far as it may. The Bible says nothing about perching a Church in any one place and establishing a limited hierarchy over all others. As children grow to adults, they’re to leave their parents (their Church), and take the Church with them in their hearts evangelizing the apostolic faith. Abraham didn’t stay in Ur, he traveled the Fertile Crescent, to eventually establish a Hebrew Church, at the intersection of the world; between Africa, Arabian Peninsula, Asia, and Asia Minor; near the Nile, Red Sea, Mediterranean Sea, and Dead Sea. Aside from Paul, the Apostles focused on conversion within Judea, Israel, and neighboring regions were Jews had been scattered.
We’re all members of The Church of: Seth, Noah, Hebrew, Israel, Judea, Jesse, David, Christ Jesus. As each of the prior Churches collapsed: good fruit, seed, branches; brought out of corruption to reestablish God’s Kingdom on earth. Israel theologically collapsed for instance and Judea had to step-up and become the center of theological responsibility over Israel. Notice, we’re called Judeo-Christian rather than Israeli-Christian; and though Christ Jesus was born a Jew, we call ourselves Christian rather than Jewish.
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Daniel_Stinson
Guest
Scriptural support: Ezekiel & Mathew
The Church exists where God plants his mustard seeds and the Eagle carries the flourishing branch barring good fruit. These are scattered about where the Word is most needed
Ezekiel 17:1-4 The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell the house of Israel a parable. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: A great eagle with powerful wings, long feathers and full plumage of varied colors came to Lebanon. Taking hold of the top of a cedar, he broke off its topmost shoot and carried it away to a land of merchants, where he planted it in a city of traders.
Ezekiel 17:7-8 But there was another great eagle with powerful wings and full plumage. The vine now sent out its roots toward him from the plot where it was planted and stretched out its branches to him for water. It had been planted in good soil by abundant water so that it would produce branches, bear fruit and become a splendid vine.
Ezekiel 17:22-23 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain. On the mountain heights of Israel I will plant it; it will produce branches and bear fruit and become a splendid cedar. Birds of every kind will nest in it; they will find shelter in the shade of its branches.
Matthew 7
The Golden Rule
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
The Authority of Jesus
28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
The Church exists where God plants his mustard seeds and the Eagle carries the flourishing branch barring good fruit. These are scattered about where the Word is most needed
Ezekiel 17:1-4 The word of the LORD came to me: "Son of man, set forth an allegory and tell the house of Israel a parable. Say to them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: A great eagle with powerful wings, long feathers and full plumage of varied colors came to Lebanon. Taking hold of the top of a cedar, he broke off its topmost shoot and carried it away to a land of merchants, where he planted it in a city of traders.
Ezekiel 17:7-8 But there was another great eagle with powerful wings and full plumage. The vine now sent out its roots toward him from the plot where it was planted and stretched out its branches to him for water. It had been planted in good soil by abundant water so that it would produce branches, bear fruit and become a splendid vine.
Ezekiel 17:22-23 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will take a shoot from the very top of a cedar and plant it; I will break off a tender sprig from its topmost shoots and plant it on a high and lofty mountain. On the mountain heights of Israel I will plant it; it will produce branches and bear fruit and become a splendid cedar. Birds of every kind will nest in it; they will find shelter in the shade of its branches.
Matthew 7
The Golden Rule
12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Build Your House on the Rock
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
The Authority of Jesus
28 And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, 29 for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.
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Daniel_Stinson
Guest
Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears,[a] let him hear.”
The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.** 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
The Parable of the Weeds
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[c] among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants[d] of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
The Mustard Seed and the Leaven
31 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. 32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
33 He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”
Prophecy and Parables
34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:[e]
“I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.**
The Parable of the Sower
13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea. 2 And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat down. And the whole crowd stood on the beach. 3 And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow. 4 And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them. 5 Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, 6 but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them. 8 Other seeds fell on good soil and produced grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. 9 He who has ears,[a] let him hear.”
The Purpose of the Parables
10 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:
“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. 20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.** 22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
The Parable of the Weeds
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds[c] among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants[d] of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”
The Mustard Seed and the Leaven
31 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven is like a grain of mustard seed that a man took and sowed in his field. 32 It is the smallest of all seeds, but when it has grown it is larger than all the garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and make nests in its branches.”
33 He told them another parable. “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, till it was all leavened.”
Prophecy and Parables
34 All these things Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed, he said nothing to them without a parable. 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet:[e]
“I will open my mouth in parables;
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world.”
The Parable of the Weeds Explained
36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” 37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. 40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, 42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.**
D
Daniel_Stinson
Guest
Consubstantiation is the theological term for the Eucharist in Lutheranism and is officially denounced by the Roman Catholic Church. Lutherans believe in the literal presence of God in the elements of bread and wine; and believe that it’s the true body and blood of Christ. We also see the Sacraments of the Altar as a renewal of our confirmation of Baptism. We also partake of both body and blood together; and don’t take just bread alone, with an option of taking the blood.Hey Ben. Quick question before I catch some shut-eye: In order for a sacrifice to be valid e.g. the old testament, blood was required. If in fact the Eucharist, upon the words of consecration, becomes Jesus’ blood, (something you and I believe) offered up to the Father, (just as the animal’s blood was offered up in the OT) shouldn’t it be safe to refer to the Eucharist as a sacrifice of Jesus’ Blood? Of course you and I agree with the whole once-and-for-all thing…
Transubstantiation is the theological term for the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church.
B
benjohnson
Guest
Not quite, though I can certainly understand the confusion… We reject Consubstantiation and Impanation: Here’s how we define them, and C.F.W. Walther’s rejection of them for our Synod.
From C.F.W. Walther, Editorials from Lehre und Where, p. 15f
*
First of all, what do these terms mean? Consubstantiation, as the word indicates, means a combination of two substances in such a way that by being mixed together they are fused into one substance or mass, consisting of different ingredients. For example, pouring the substances of water and wine together produces a watered wine (Weinwasser); blending honey and water produces mead; mixing meat and flour produces meat pies. Hence, in the Lord’s Supper consubstantiation would involve the concept of a spacial combination, mixture, and fusion of the body and blood of Christ with the consecrated elements as a new dual mass, as Eutyches once asserted the fusion of both natures in Christ into one nature.
Impanation signifies the spacial inclusion, concealment, incapsulation of an item within the bread, as in a capsule containing and enclosing the item. Hence, in the Lord’s Supper impanation would express the idea that the body of Christ, compressed into a very small body, lies concealed under the consecrated bread and is enclosed by it as by its container.
These conceptions of the presence of Christ, that is, of His body and blood, in the Holy Supper are thoroughly unbiblical, materialistic, unworthy, and self-contradictory, and they are equally un-Lutheran and in contradiction to the Confessions of our church. . . .*
A
allhers
Guest
That is one point that I would have to agree with you on, Lutherans, that I know, say that it is the Bible, the Gospel, that is important. Well, I believe that and I know that and I also know that it is the Word of God-Jesus is the WORD, made flesh. BUT, that doesn’t mean the same to Lutherans as it does to us, does it? Lutherans, that I know, seem to believe the Bible came before the Catholic Church. Whereas, we Catholics know that we compiled the writings into a Book that we refer to as the Holy Bible. The Word of God.
When a Lutheran says: The Word was made flesh, do they think that the Bible came first and that it means the Bible came to life and God sent Jesus here or what?
(I don’t mean literally of course, I am just asking if that is how they take it? Know what I mean?)
D
Daniel_Stinson
Guest
**The law is without mercy for our sins and only Enoch and Elijah were directly taken into heaven under the law, and Abraham nearly gave-up the blood line to Hagar the Egyptian, and Moses shattered the Law given to him against the ground. The Law of God requires a level of perfection that could only be met through atonement from Christ Jesus, so yes our inability to comply with the Law is death, and I believe that to be Scriptural. Those of faith live-out life under the law, but bound to faith in the mercy of Christ Jesus. **
Galatians 2
English Standard Version (ESV)
Paul Accepted by the Apostles
1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, taking Titus along with me.
2 I went up because of a revelation and set before them (though privately before those who seemed influential) the gospel that I proclaim among the Gentiles, in order to make sure I was not running or had not run in vain.
3 But even Titus, who was with me, was not forced to be circumcised, though he was a Greek.
4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in—who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery—
5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.
7 On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised
8 (for he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles),
9 and when James and Cephas and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given to me, they gave the right hand of fellowship to Barnabas and me, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
10 Only, they asked us to remember the poor, the very thing I was eager to do.
Paul Opposes Peter
11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.
12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party.
13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.
14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners;
16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through **faith **in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not!
18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor.
19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Galatians 3
By Faith, or by Works of the Law?
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3&version=ESV
Romans 7
Released from the Law
biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%207&version=ESV
Daniel,
Please see the Charles Porterfield Krauth’s quote in my signature below. No confessional Lutheran theologian has ever accepted consubstantiation as Lutheran teaching.
Jon
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