Error Begets Error

[benjohnson]

Or am I missing some subtlety? There must be more than “We prefer not to think about the implications.”

I’m probably missing something too - we Lutherans tend to focus on our own lack of living up to God’s Grace rather than focusing on others. We do have a joyous obligation to bring the Gospel to the world, so that all may hear - perhaps this figures into God’s plan for all of us.

The problem of ‘what happens to the un-churched?’ I think is shared with both our Churches - in that we have a very clear path for salvation and so we cling to it, and yet we don’t quite know what happened to those outside that path.

Perhaps the best answer that I may offer is to pray that God’s will be done for all of us.

 

[manualman]

Perhaps the best answer that I may offer is to pray that God’s will be done for all of us.

Deal!

 

[Love4All]

Are you implying that knowing the Book of Concorde is a prerequisite to salvation? If so, then I would say that not how we understand it.

You must enter the kingdom as little children is true. But that isn’t a proscription to remain ignorant as a child during your life here.

It seemed to me you were saying that in order to understand what Lutherans believe, it is first necessary to understand what Catholics believe, and then to read this Book of Concorde. Did you mean to imply that belief in Catholicism plus reading of this book will make one a Lutheran?

 

[aidanbradypop]

It seemed to me you were saying that in order to understand what Lutherans believe, it is first necessary to understand what Catholics believe, and then to read this Book of Concorde. Did you mean to imply that belief in Catholicism plus reading of this book will make one a Lutheran?

I suspect he is implying that Lutherans believe much of what Catholics believe and the Book of Concorde is where they branch off.

 

[guanophore]

That’s a fair problem, and hence our desire for stronger unity with the holy, catholic and apostolic church we profess. As far as dogma, I would say the LCMS has been very consistent and hasn’t introduced anything novel - a concern our Orthodox friends would also share with us about the Catholic church.

Yes, however, I think that the Orthodox, along with Catholics, consider Sola Scriptura novel, and a distinct departure from the Apostolic Faith.

They would also agree with us on the “One True Church”, an apostolic doctrine that you call “polemical”.

 

[Tomster]

You’ll have no problem convincing confessional Lutherans on the necessity of the Church, where you’ll have problem is convincing us that that our church doesn’t preach and proclaim the the Gospel and administer the sacraments.

This encyclical has some great teaching, but where it falls short, is that it reminds me of polemical “One True Church” arguments.

Well, according to the Protestant theory, the Church would be the assembly of all the faithful united to Christ. But there is no external or visible bond which unites them to one another. If there be any bond, it is invisible; it is solely between Christ and the individual’s soul. This theory allows no place for a social spiritual life. Everyone works out his salvation on his own account. Over this ununited multitude, without external sign by which it may be known, rules, in each particular soul, the invisible Christ, with no ministers, no vicars, with no visible rites for the conferring of grace.

Such theories give no regard to the most explicit of the teachings of Our Savior, of the Apostles and of the Fathers. They put aside the fact the Jesus Christ willed that there be one visible Church, with its officials appointed by Him and acting in His name; that He gave Himself without reserve to the Church, His Spouse; that no one can share in the graces of Christ save in and through the Church.

According to this Protestant theory what happens to the diverse function of different members? Where is the compact solidarity so often affirmed by St. Paul ( 1 Corinthians 12; Romans 12:4-8)? Where is the organism, so complex, yet so wholly one, to which Christ gave Apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, doctors, charged to perfect by their ministry the faithful, to edify the Body of Christ, to insure their growth unto "the perfecct man: ( Ephesians 4:11-14), to protect the faithful from the excitements and changes of merely human doctrines? Where is that Body of which Christ is the Head, : from Whom the whole body, being compacted and fitly joined together, by what every joint supplieth, according to the operation in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in charity? Where is the fruitful co-operation between all the members, promoting the benefit of the whole, of which the Apostle speaks?

 

[Tomster]

As I stated above, I believe reform brings reform…and reform…and reform…and more reform. I believe that once someone decides they know better than The Church, then many more will draw that same conclusion later on. Example with in Lutheranism is ELCA, LCMS, WELS, LCMC…etc.

Nothing could be more evident than these truths to one who studies the mystery of Christ and the Church in the light of the doctrine of the Mystical Body. No one can partake of the beneficial influences of the Head unless he belong to that Body which the Head rules and vivifies. It is a pretense to call a number of human beings, without bond or cohesion, everyone separately through his own conscience seeking to draw life from Christ, a living, organic body.

 

[JonNC]

=Tomster;10446835]Well, according to the Protestant theory, the Church would be the assembly of all the faithful united to Christ. But there is no external or visible bond which unites them to one another. If there be any bond, it is invisible; it is solely between Christ and the individual’s soul. This theory allows no place for a social spiritual life. Everyone works out his salvation on his own account. Over this ununited multitude, without external sign by which it may be known, rules, in each particular soul, the invisible Christ, with no ministers, no vicars, with no visible rites for the conferring of grace.

This may the protestant theory, but for Lutherans there is the understanding that the Church is where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. For sacraments to be administered requires a visible Church. So, around word and sacrament, the congregation of saints gather. The term “Holy Communion” implies more than the reception of His body and blood, but also that shared spiritual life, not only with those of the Church Militant, but also in communion with the Church Triumphant, in the Communion of Saints.

In addition to word and sacrament (Baptism, Absolution, Eucharist), we also insist on Catechetical training, which brings a social aspect to spritual life in Christ and the Church. through Confirmation.

Such theories give no regard to the most explicit of the teachings of Our Savior, of the Apostles and of the Fathers. They put aside the fact the Jesus Christ willed that there be one visible Church, with its officials appointed by Him and acting in His name; that He gave Himself without reserve to the Church, His Spouse; that no one can share in the graces of Christ save in and through the Church.

Lutherans are not denominationalists. We believe that there is one, Holy Catholic and Apsotolic Church, and we believe that this is what Christ wills for us.

Jon

 

[benjohnson]

Yes, however, I think that the Orthodox, along with Catholics, consider Sola Scriptura novel, and a distinct departure from the Apostolic Faith.

They would also agree with us on the “One True Church”, an apostolic doctrine that you call “polemical”.

If you mean Sola Scriptura as a “I discern the bible for myself and create a religion in my own eyes” - add us to that list of those that think it a distinct departure. If you mean Sola Scriptura as a final check on any dogma, then the goodly Orthodox I know don’t think it too amiss.

We confess one holy, catholic, and apostolic church as well. Where the polemics comes in is when one with poor understanding uses that to deny in entirety any salvation granting aspects of other Christian faiths.

 

[benjohnson]

I suspect he is implying that Lutherans believe much of what Catholics believe and the Book of Concorde is where they branch off.

That’s a very fair assessment - though Lutheran’s don’t see themselves as branching off, but being a continuation.

 

[aidanbradypop]

That’s a very fair assessment - though Lutheran’s don’t see themselves as branching off, but being a continuation.

We see it as branching off

 

[benjohnson]

Well, according to the Protestant theory, the Church would be the assembly of all the faithful united to Christ.

My gut reaction is that don’t know if Lutherans share this theory - in fact, if you look carefully, my synod claims to be the holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Before you start gathering the firewood - we have to be a bit careful in this - our claim is exclusive without speaking on if we deny others the same possibility. It’s an acknowledgement that God have given us His church.

If I remember correctly, we would say what you’re describing as the ‘invisible church.’ But this is not the same as the church.

 

[aidanbradypop]

My gut reaction is that don’t know if Lutherans share this theory - in fact, if you look carefully, my synod claims to be the holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Before you start gathering the firewood - we have to be a bit careful in this - our claim is exclusive without speaking on if we deny others the same possibility. It’s an acknowledgement that God have given us His church.

If I remember correctly, we would say what you’re describing as the ‘invisible church.’ But this is not the same as the church.

That’s interesting. All the LCMC folks I know believe the “Church” is the people of Christ. They do not prescribe to the “church” being what Christ instituted on earth. They actually are kind of against that belief.

 

[Stilldreamn]

I admit to being no theologian, but the way I understand sin and Grace is that we humans have dug ourselves into a hopelessly deep pit of sin and cannot escape from it via our own efforts. In Christ, God offers us a rescue rope which we must cling to as He pulls us out of our pit. As I understand it, many protestants reject this analogy because they worry that the clinging to the rope is a “work” about which the person may brag and be proud of.

Personally, I’ve never met anybody that bragged about his achievement of clinging to the rope that rescued him from the fatal pit he had dug himself into…

We would point out that from our viewpoint down in that pit, we wouldn’t realize that we needed that rope without the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Thus, it’s God’s work that we grasped the rope, and not our own.

 

[JonNC]

That’s interesting. All the LCMC folks I know believe the “Church” is the people of Christ. They do not prescribe to the “church” being what Christ instituted on earth. They actually are kind of against that belief.

Here’s what the Augsburg Confession says:

Article VII: Of the Church.

1] Also they teach that one holy Church is to continue forever. The Church is the congregation of saints,** in which the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments are rightly administered. **

As I’ve said before, if they are Lutheran, they believe, teach, and confess the Augsburg Confession. If they don’t, then the are not Lutheran but in name.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

As I’ve said before, if they are Lutheran, they believe, teach, and confess the Augsburg Confession. If they don’t, then the are not Lutheran but in name.

It states a congregation. Wouldn’t many say that the congregation is the people within a “church.” When I was Baptist, it was always thought that the people were the congregation and the people were the only “church.”

Couldn’t a different sect of Lutherans view the Augsburg Confession with a different viewpoint?

 

[JonNC]

It states a congregation. Wouldn’t many say that the congregation is the people within a “church.” When I was Baptist, it was always thought that the people were the congregation and the people were the only “church.”

Couldn’t a different sect of Lutherans view the Augsburg Confession with a different viewpoint?

When one provides a prerequisite that there must be word and sacrament present, preached and administered (and Augsburg also requires the presence of an ordained pastor for these to be done properly), then we are talking about more than just an invisible Church. There is a tangible, visible aspect to this, where word and sacrament are present.

Perhaps baptists define things differently.

Jon

 

[hn160]

It states a congregation. Wouldn’t many say that the congregation is the people within a “church.” When I was Baptist, it was always thought that the people were the congregation and the people were the only “church.”

Couldn’t a different sect of Lutherans view the Augsburg Confession with a different viewpoint?

The Lutheran Church is no more a sect as is the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps you should read the Lutheran Confession and the Conserative Reformation by Charles Porterfield Krauth and then decide if you want to refer to the Lutheran Church as a sect. I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent.

 

[aidanbradypop]

The Lutheran Church is no more a sect as is the Roman Catholic Church, perhaps you should read the Lutheran Confession and the Conserative Reformation by Charles Porterfield Krauth and then decide if you want to refer to the Lutheran Church as a sect. I have read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Council of Trent.

Oh blah. Take off that grumpy hat for a second. You are LCMS, which is a branch, sect, group, synod…etc etc of Lutheranism.

 

[benjohnson]

Oh blah. Take off that grumpy hat for a second. You are LCMS, which is a branch, sect, group, synod…etc etc of Lutheranism.

If I may, he’s being quite correct - in that we reject denominationalism. Of course, this makes discussing our differences rather difficult, so we suspend this rejection in order to communicate.

It has interesting ramifications: for example if we have a reading of one of the Epistles, we are to hear them as if the Apostle Paul was writing to the very church we are worshiping in.