Error Begets Error

[aidanbradypop]

If I may, he’s being quite correct - in that we reject denominationalism. Of course, this makes discussing our differences rather difficult, so we suspend this rejection in order to communicate.

It has interesting ramifications: for example if we have a reading of one of the Epistles, we are to hear them as if the Apostle Paul was writing to the very church we are worshiping in.

Ben that makes no sense. You reject denominationalism yet there are many different _______ (since we cannot agree on what to call them) with Lutheranism. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lutheran_denominations

So is the ELCA also the Church Paul is talking to as well? You know I am not being disrespectful, but rejecting that a storm is a storm does not make it any less of a storm. Right? Now I am not going to go to as far as saying that you are not part of the one catholic and apostolic church, but we have to meet somewhere in the middle and say Lutheranism does have different ______.

 

[aidanbradypop]

sect: a subgroup of a religious, political or philosophical belief system, usually an offshoot of a larger religious group.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben that makes no sense. You reject denominationalism yet there are many different _______

I certainly understand what you’re saying, when someone asks me what church I attend, I don’t simply reply “God’s Church.”

But what we need to distance ourself from is any label for our church used proscriptively as a definition of membership in a man-made institution. For once you cross the threshold of our sanctuary, you are in the holy, catholic, and apostolic church.

Our true definition is not between ourselves and other churches, but between ourselves and God.

 

[PRmerger]

We confess one holy, catholic, and apostolic church as well.

I understand what you are saying, friend, but I ask, echoing the sentiments of St. Augustine: if someone comes to your house and says, “Ben, can you point me to the local catholic church?” would you *really *give him directions to your Lutheran church?

 

[benjohnson]

I understand what you are saying, friend, but I ask, echoing the sentiments of St. Augustine: if someone comes to your house and says, “Ben, can you point me to the local catholic church?” would you *really *give him directions to your Lutheran church?

Sure, if he asked for the “Catholic church”, I’d point him to St. Monica and I’d introduce him to several members there that are great friends of mine. One of them is the godfather of my third child.

Now if he asked if my church was ‘catholic’, I’d bring out the beer and cigars and we’d commence with the theology.

I assume the quote from St. Augustine is this one: “Tenenda est nobis christiana religio, et eius Ecclesiae communicatio quae catholica est, et catholica nominatur, non solum a suis, verum etiam ab omnibus inimicis.”

I read this more as an admonition that the christian church is universal, in opposition to the followers of the prophet Mani.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Sure, if he asked for the “Catholic church”, I’d point him to St. Monica and I’d introduce him to several members there that are great friends of mine. One of them is the godfather of my third child.

Now if he asked if my church was ‘catholic’, I’d bring out the beer and cigars and we’d commence with the theology.

I assume the quote from St. Augustine is this one: “Tenenda est nobis christiana religio, et eius Ecclesiae communicatio quae catholica est, et catholica nominatur, non solum a suis, verum etiam ab omnibus inimicis.”

I read this more as an admonition that the christian church is universal, in opposition to the followers of the prophet Mani.

Ben,

If someone asked you if you were Catholic. How would you answer?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben…what of Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope?

Sorry…lol I know I am throwing a lot at ya right now.

 

[Tomster]

I’m probably missing something too - we Lutherans tend to focus on our own lack of living up to God’s Grace rather than focusing on others. We do have a joyous obligation to bring the Gospel to the world, so that all may hear - perhaps this figures into God’s plan for all of us.

The problem of ‘what happens to the un-churched?’ I think is shared with both our Churches - in that we have a very clear path for salvation and so we cling to it, and yet we don’t quite know what happened to those outside that path.

Perhaps the best answer that I may offer is to pray that God’s will be done for all of us.

Deal.

However. . . “both our churches”??? How many Bodies of Christ are there? “A clear path for salvation” ???

It is very difficult to know what the reformers of the 16th century understood by the faith that justifies, for we find among them no precise definitions, and especially no uniform notions of it. Their texts, when compared, leave a strong impression of obscurity and incoherence. The leaders of Protestantism were indeed agreed in denying that a formless faith is a true faith; but as they wished to eliminate the intellectual element from the act of faith, while nevertheless leaving it certitude, their embarrassment in trying to define their special faith was extreme. If they said with Calvin that faith is “an unshaken and certain knowledge of divine good will towards us,” they had to make long commentaries in order to explain that such an act proceeds from the heart and not from the mind, and they did not know where to locate the reality of this faith, the object of which, at the moment when it was perceived as existing, did not yet exist. If they preferred Luther’s definition: “a certain and profound confidence in the divine goodness and in the grace manifested and known by the Word of God,” it was impossible to say how this confidence can be certain, unless it be admitted that it is itself preceded by an act of intellectual faith. We have no right to expect any greater clearness and precision from modern Protestants.

 

[Tomster]

Oh blah. Take off that grumpy hat for a second. You are LCMS, which is a branch, sect, group, synod…etc etc of Lutheranism.

:tiphat:

 

[Tomster]

This may the protestant theory, but for Lutherans there is the understanding that the Church is where the word is preached and the sacraments administered. For sacraments to be administered requires a visible Church. So, around word and sacrament, the congregation of saints gather. The term “Holy Communion” implies more than the reception of His body and blood, but also that shared spiritual life, not only with those of the Church Militant, but also in communion with the Church Triumphant, in the Communion of Saints.

In addition to word and sacrament (Baptism, Absolution, Eucharist), we also insist on Catechetical training, which brings a social aspect to spritual life in Christ and the Church. through Confirmation.

Lutherans are not denominationalists. We believe that there is one, Holy Catholic and Apsotolic Church, and we believe that this is what Christ wills for us.

Jon

Jon,

We’ve gone around and around on this before. The inherent contradictions of Protestantism have been explained to you many times.

The Church is the literal prolongation of Christ in time. As a consequence, there simply cannot be many different Churches. The divisions within Lutheranism are there for all to visibly see. There is only One Body, His!

 

[benjohnson]

Ben,

If someone asked you if you were Catholic. How would you answer?

Depends on who’s asking:

If it was a struggling Catholic, I would say ‘no’ so as to not introduce confusion or another stumbling block to their faith. I would then divert the conversation so to help build their faith.

If is a questioning Lutheran or someone strong in their faith - I would say yes, and explain.

…

Perhaps ruminate on this: An equivalent question for Catholics, is if someone asks you “Are you orthodox?”

 

[aidanbradypop]

Depends on who’s asking:

If it was a struggling Catholic, I would say ‘no’ so as to not introduce confusion or another stumbling block to their faith. I would then divert the conversation so to help build their faith.

If is a questioning Lutheran or someone strong in their faith - I would say yes, and explain.

…

Perhaps ruminate on this: An equivalent question for Catholics, is if someone asks you “Are you orthodox?”

 

[benjohnson]

Deal.

However. . . “both our churches”??? How many Bodies of Christ are there? “A clear path for salvation” ???

Not to be a stinker, but my church says it’s the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. If we didn’t think this, we would immediately have to find the one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

That’s our clear path.

Now… just because we acknowledge this, doesn’t mean we don’t love, cherish, respect, and desire unity with our fellow brothers in Christ. Nor do we think you’re outside salvation - you’ll probably never have a confessional Lutheran try to convert you.

It is very difficult to know what the reformers of the 16th century understood by the faith that justifies, for we find among them no precise definitions, and especially no uniform notions of it.

I would agree with this - but remember, our church has nothing to do with the reformed churches. (You may run into some ELCA Lutherans that really have roots in reformed theology, but they’re not confessional Lutherans.)

If you read our Book of Concord, you’ll see we do have very cogent definitions of God’s loving Grace for us.

Their texts, when compared, leave a strong impression of obscurity and incoherence. The leaders of Protestantism were indeed agreed in denying that a formless faith is a true faith; but as they wished to eliminate the intellectual element from the act of faith, while nevertheless leaving it certitude, their embarrassment in trying to define their special faith was extreme.

Perhaps you’ve lumped all non-Catholics into the bucket of “Protestants” and found them lacking in clarity. We do to.

Perhaps, take a look at our Augsburg Confession. It’s so ‘Catholic’, that the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger gave serious consideration as to it’s status as a Catholic document. He didn’t immediately throw it in the trash, and the jury is still out.

 

[benjohnson]

May I clarify?

The question I propose to Catholic (noun) who don’t think that anybody else can use the word catholic (adjective) is “Are you orthodox?”

Certainly you’re not a member of one of the Eastern Orthodox churches who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome. But you’re hopefully claim to be orthodox: worshiping within the bounds of what is right and true.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Not to be a stinker, but my church says it’s the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. If we didn’t think this, we would immediately have to find the one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

And I seriously mean no disrespect and you know me (I hope) well enough to know that.

How can your community be the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church if your founder broke from that Church and gave up the Apostolic Succession?

I can show you were the OHCA Church is

 

[aidanbradypop]

May I clarify?

The question I propose to Catholic (noun) who don’t think that anybody else can use the word catholic (adjective) is “Are you orthodox?”

Certainly you’re not a member of one of the Eastern Orthodox churches who are not in communion with the Bishop of Rome. But you’re hopefully claim to be orthodox: worshiping within the bounds of what is right and true.

Ok Thanks

 

[Tomster]

Not to be a stinker, but my church says it’s the one holy, catholic and apostolic church. If we didn’t think this, we would immediately have to find the one holy, catholic and apostolic church.

That’s our clear path.

Now… just because we acknowledge this, doesn’t mean we don’t love, cherish, respect, and desire unity with our fellow brothers in Christ. Nor do we think you’re outside salvation - you’ll probably never have a confessional Lutheran try to convert you.

I would agree with this - but remember, our church has nothing to do with the reformed churches. (You may run into some ELCA Lutherans that really have roots in reformed theology, but they’re not confessional Lutherans.)

If you read our Book of Concord, you’ll see we do have very cogent definitions of God’s loving Grace for us.

Perhaps you’ve lumped all non-Catholics into the bucket of “Protestants” and found them lacking in clarity. We do to.

Perhaps, take a look at our Augsburg Confession. It’s so ‘Catholic’, that the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger gave serious consideration as to it’s status as a Catholic document. He didn’t immediately throw it in the trash, and the jury is still out.

Ben,

Likewise, not to be a stinker, but just by the first portion of your response you have disqualified yourself. Historically speaking, the Lutheran church did not exist prior to Martin Luther.

Additionally, your reference to ELCA Lutheran further illustrates the divisions within worldwide Lutheranism. Who within Lutheranism has the authority to distinguishes which group within Lutheranism is correct and which is not? By jettisoning true authority Lutheranism is forever plagued.

Now, having said that, I do recognize you as a fellow Christian, a brother in faith in Jesus Christ by virtue of your baptism.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben…

Now this is not my statement but tell me if you agree with it.

Baptist minister: Lutherans crack me up

Me: Why is that

BM: Because you are 100% Catholic and I respect that, I may not agree with it but I can at least respect that. Lutherans want all the “good” things in Catholicism and ignore the parts that they do not agree with.

Me: Ummm ok

 

[benjohnson]

Ben…

Now this is not my statement but tell me if you agree with it.

Baptist minister: Lutherans crack me up

Me: Why is that

BM: Because you are 100% Catholic and I respect that, I may not agree with it but I can at least respect that. Lutherans want all the “good” things in Catholicism and ignore the parts that they do not agree with.

Me: Ummm ok

We’ll, I wont say anything bad about Baptists as they make for great Lutherans when we get a hold of them.

Frankly, being a confessional Lutheran is a narrow path, and it’s not so much that we’re “ignoring” parts we don’t agree with, but that we’re pointing to the Gospel with vigor.

 

[aidanbradypop]

We’ll, I wont say anything bad about Baptists as they make for great Lutherans when we get a hold of them.

Frankly, being a confessional Lutheran is a narrow path, and it’s not so much that we’re “ignoring” parts we don’t agree with, but that we’re pointing to the Gospel with vigor.

lol funny cause I read somewhere that Lutherans and Baptist account for the majority of converts to the Catholic Church.