Error Begets Error

[JonNC]

One Church of many congregations within the same Church, Lutherans would explain that for some doctrines the means of grace is difficult to obtain, because the doctrine won’t promote a growing faith. We generally don’t go so far as to definitively say non-Lutherans can’t go to heaven, and we don’t believe Lutheranism is the only path. We do believe that the average Roman Catholic congregational member has a better chance of going to heaven than the papacy for instance.

The papacy is an office. Offices don’t go to Heaven or Hell. As for the individual popes, cardinals, etc., who are we to claim to know the will of God, who He will save? There have been few Christian men or women in my almost 60 years that have stood taller for the faith than Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. If JP II is not with Christ in His kingdom, who am I to even hope to be?

Jon

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

Not quite, though I can certainly understand the confusion… We reject Consubstantiation and Impanation: Here’s how we define them, and C.F.W. Walther’s rejection of them for our Synod.

From C.F.W. Walther, Editorials from Lehre und Where, p. 15f
*
First of all, what do these terms mean? Consubstantiation, as the word indicates, means a combination of two substances in such a way that by being mixed together they are fused into one substance or mass, consisting of different ingredients. For example, pouring the substances of water and wine together produces a watered wine (Weinwasser); blending honey and water produces mead; mixing meat and flour produces meat pies. Hence, in the Lord’s Supper consubstantiation would involve the concept of a spacial combination, mixture, and fusion of the body and blood of Christ with the consecrated elements as a new dual mass, as Eutyches once asserted the fusion of both natures in Christ into one nature.

Impanation signifies the spacial inclusion, concealment, incapsulation of an item within the bread, as in a capsule containing and enclosing the item. Hence, in the Lord’s Supper impanation would express the idea that the body of Christ, compressed into a very small body, lies concealed under the consecrated bread and is enclosed by it as by its container.

These conceptions of the presence of Christ, that is, of His body and blood, in the Holy Supper are thoroughly unbiblical, materialistic, unworthy, and self-contradictory, and they are equally un-Lutheran and in contradiction to the Confessions of our church. . . .*

Sacramental Union and the Eucharist
“Regarding the Eucharist, the LCMS rejects the Roman Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation and the Reformed teaching that the true body and blood of Christ are not consumed with the consecrated bread and wine in the Eucharist. Rather, it believes in the doctrine of the sacramental union, Real Presence, that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present “in, with, and under” the elements of bread and wine. Or, as the Smalcald Articles express this mystery: “Of the Sacrament of the Altar, we hold that the bread and wine in the Supper are Christ’s true body and blood.” It is occasionally reported that the LCMS and other Lutherans teach the doctrine of consubstantiation. Consubstantiation is generally rejected by Lutherans and is explicitly rejected by the LCMS as an attempt to define the holy mystery of Christ’s presence.”

Right, we eventually denounced Philipp Melanchthon’s use of the term consubstantiation; which came up while he was debating John Calvin on the issue of the Eucharist, if I’m remembering that correctly. We simply use the term sacramental union at present. Phillipp overstepped his position by trying to over-explain the Sacrament.

 

[aidanbradypop]

The papacy is an office. Offices don’t go to Heaven or Hell. As for the individual popes, cardinals, etc., who are we to claim to know the will of God, who He will save? There have been few Christian men or women in my almost 60 years that have stood taller for the faith than Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. If JP II is not with Christ in His kingdom, who am I to even hope to be?

Jon

That made me

 

[SteveVH]

That made me

Me too. How would you like to be standing in line behind John Paul, II and see him get turned away from the gates of heaven?

 

[aidanbradypop]

Me too. How would you like to be standing in line behind John Paul, II and see him get turned away from the gates of heaven?

I would seriously follow him because I do not stand a chance

 

[allhers]

Me too. How would you like to be standing in line behind John Paul, II and see him get turned away from the gates of heaven?

I’d be thinking, well, if he’s going to purgatory, I may as well give it up.:crutches:

 

[SteveVH]

I’d be thinking, well, if he’s going to purgatory, I may as well give it up.:crutches:

I would be more than happy to find myself in purgatory. I think we’re talking about the other place.

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

That is one point that I would have to agree with you on, Lutherans, that I know, say that it is the Bible, the Gospel, that is important. Well, I believe that and I know that and I also know that it is the Word of God-Jesus is the WORD, made flesh. BUT, that doesn’t mean the same to Lutherans as it does to us, does it? Lutherans, that I know, seem to believe the Bible came before the Catholic Church. Whereas, we Catholics know that we compiled the writings into a Book that we refer to as the Holy Bible. The Word of God.

When a Lutheran says: The Word was made flesh, do they think that the Bible came first and that it means the Bible came to life and God sent Jesus here or what? (I don’t mean literally of course, I am just asking if that is how they take it? Know what I mean?)

Genesis 15
God’s Covenant with Abram

1 After these things the wordof the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
2 But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue[a] childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son** shall be your heir.”
5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Synonyms: Messiah, Light among us, Word of the Lord, The Word, Angle of the Lord, Christ, greek-Jesus/hebrew-Emmanuel “God is with us”.

Genesis adds emphasis on “spoke”, emphasizing the Word of God, being active in the creation, and we see the Spirit of the Lord bring calm to the power of God’s creation. This puts the Power, Word, and Spirit together at once signifying the Holy Trinity.**

 

[allhers]

Thank you for all of that Daniel. I know those writings well.
What I am asking is if Lutherans believe that there was a Church prior to the Catholic Church that compiled a Bible?
I know that the Scriptures (scrolls) that Jesus stood up and read from
in the Temple were the Old Testament…this has been fulfilled this day…
I just don’t understand when a Lutheran says something like “the Church”, what Church are they referring to if not the Catholic Church?

 

[SteveVH]

Genesis 15
God’s Covenant with Abram

1 After these things the wordof the Lord came to Abram in a vision: “Fear not, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great.”
2 But Abram said, “O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue[a] childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?”
3 And Abram said, “Behold, you have given me no offspring, and a member of my household will be my heir.”
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him: “This man shall not be your heir; your very own son** shall be your heir.”
5 And he brought him outside and said, “Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”
6 And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

1 In the beginning was the Word**, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him.
8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.

9 The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 (John bore witness about him, and cried out, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, because he was before me.’”)
16 For from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace.
17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.

Synonyms: Messiah, Light among us, Word of the Lord, The Word, Angle of the Lord, Christ, greek-Jesus/hebrew-Emmanuel “God is with us”.

Genesis adds emphasis on “spoke”, emphasizing the Word of God, being active in the creation, and we see the Spirit of the Lord bring calm to the power of God’s creation. This puts the Power, Word, and Spirit together at once signifying the Holy Trinity.

Daniel, I think your posts would be much more effective if you would cut down substantially on the scriptural references. One or two are usually sufficient to make a point. I only say this because it is burdensome to read through your posts and the truth is that there are few if any who are going to read and analyze the entire thing. I don’t mean to offend you at all; I’ve had some very long posts myself, but I think they diminish and distract from the real point you have to make.

 

[allhers]

I would be more than happy to find myself in purgatory. I think we’re talking about the other place.

Oh, well, in that case, I would be alright with that, but…I’d be thinking that I wouldn’t make it out until the Last Judgement. (of course that would be alright too, since eventually I’d made it to heaven.)
But if he went to the unthinkable place, I’m thinking we’d all pretty much be doomed.

 

[SteveVH]

Oh, well, in that case, I would be alright with that, but…I’d be thinking that I wouldn’t make it out until the Last Judgement. (of course that would be alright too, since eventually I’d made it to heaven.)
But if he went to the unthinkable place, I’m thinking we’d all pretty much be doomed.

My point exactly!

 

[joe370]

Consubstantiation is the theological term for the Eucharist in Lutheranism and is officially denounced by the Roman Catholic Church. Lutherans believe in the literal presence of God in the elements of bread and wine; and believe that it’s the true body and blood of Christ. We also see the Sacraments of the Altar as a renewal of our confirmation of Baptism. We also partake of both body and blood together; and don’t take just bread alone, with an option of taking the blood.

Transubstantiation is the theological term for the Eucharist in the Roman Catholic Church.

In other words, a genuine sacrifice, if in fact it is Jesus’ blood being offered up to the Father - right?

 

[joe370]

benjohnson;10471220]Not quite, though I can certainly understand the confusion… We reject Consubstantiation and Impanation: Here’s how we define them, and C.F.W. Walther’s rejection of them for our Synod.

Hey Ben. How can a Christian belonging to the Lutheran Church know if you are right or if Daniel is right? After all you both belong to the Lutheran church.

 

[benjohnson]

What I am asking is if Lutherans believe that there was a Church prior to the Catholic Church that compiled a Bible?

Speaking for this Lutheran, the one holy, catholic and apostolic church received the books of the bible. And for that we give thanks. Suffice to say, Lutherans would be silly to not give thanks to our Catholic brothers in Christ for receiving and protecting the Word. And as an American Lutheran, I give thank to Catholics now for whacking us over the head with the Deuterocanonical books and making us take notice.

 

[benjohnson]

Hey Ben. How can a Christian belonging to the Lutheran Church know if you are right or if Daniel is right? After all you both belong to the Lutheran church.

Awesome question - they should ask their pastor. Or they could go directly to the source for what the synod has written - our teaching documents are very accessible. We could also look to the Book of Concord that lays out our catechism our creeds.

 

[PRmerger]

Speaking for this Lutheran, the one holy, catholic and apostolic church received the books of the bible. And for that we give thanks. Suffice to say, Lutherans would be silly to not give thanks to our Catholic brothers in Christ for receiving and protecting the Word. And as an American Lutheran, I give thank to Catholics now for whacking us over the head with the Deuterocanonical books and making us take notice.

Do you believe that these men, Catholic bishops, who received the books of the Bible, did so infallibly?

 

[joe370]

Awesome question - they should ask their pastor. Or they could go directly to the source for what the synod has written - our teaching documents are very accessible. We could also look to the Book of Concord that lays out our catechism our creeds.

Just curious: is consubstantiation a theological term for the Eucharist in Lutheranism, as Daniel mentioned? My nieces husband seems to think so.

 

[joe370]

I think Lutheran theology is that Christ died once on the cross, so we would say that the Eucharist is a re-presentation of that sacrifice, the first presentation being at the Last Supper.

Agreed. So, within Lutheranism, essentially, it is OK to refer to the Eucharist as a sacrifice (albeit re-presented) offered up to the Father?

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

Awesome question - they should ask their pastor. Or they could go directly to the source for what the synod has written - our teaching documents are very accessible. We could also look to the Book of Concord that lays out our catechism our creeds.

Both, JonNC & Ben Johnson are correct, and I made the correction on post#121, quoting directly from LCMS. I miss spoke, while doing research on Philipp Melanchthon, who allegedly used the term in a tough debate that he had with John Calvin over the Eucharist. Apparently the stigma of that debate and consubstantiation have stuck to the Lutheran identity for some time now. As a catechumen we’re taught that it’s best not to over explain it, but accept the grace that pours from it, sacramental union is the most prevalent term used in our doctrine.
theopedia.com/Consubstantiation