Error Begets Error

[allhers]

ben, you were correct, the College of Cardnals are ArchBishops, sorry for the confusion.

daniel, it looks, to this casual observer, that the reason you do not answer PRmerger is because you know she is correct.

(just my observation)

 

[benjohnson]

This is problematic. If you believe in the communion of saints, how can you not be in communion with other Christians? How many communions are there, or can there be?

Awesome question! We should ask ourselves this question every day.

I’m in spiritual communion with my Catholic brothers in christ - I lament that both our churches don’t commune each other.

Put it this way… when I go to a Catholic mass, I don’t think of it as ‘outside’ or ‘alien.’ I can see the body and blood of christ, I can hear the Gospel, I see God’s people all around me. But I get that in my church as well, and it’s the church that God has placed me, so I’m content.

As for how many communions there can be - there should be one holy, catholic, apostolic church.

It’s a scandal that we’re not in full communion, and may God deal gently with us.

And here is where we part ways, because we do not believe that “the Gospel” according to Luther or Lutherans - or being ‘pointed to’ by them - is fully worthy of the name. We have never heard of the Holy Gospel of Jesus Christ according to Martin Luther.

And we don’t hear Luther’s Gospel - we hear the Gospel. As I’ve told my pastor, if our church burned down to the ground, and all that remained was him, a few partitioners, a bible, some bread and wine, we’d still have a church. If our memories were better, we wouldn’t even need the bible.

He has a copy of the Constitution, but no Supreme Court. He may or may not even have any legal training to interpret the Constitution though, to be very fair, I know the Lutherans have a very scholarly and serious tradition in approaching the Scriptures, and this much to their benefit and credit.

American Lutherans need to regain their apostolic succession, and we need better church governance. No argument there. Some American Lutherans have jumped off the secular cliff, if I may speak plainly.

Who would you expect the ordinary Christian to believe? Is it even reasonable to insist they believe Luther over so many others whose authority was at least equal to his?

You’ll notice that Lutherans spend pretty much no time trying to convert to Catholics and Orthodox - we positively spend a lot of time going after agnostics, other religions and Christians because we feel they are not getting the sacraments and the gospel.

Any ‘authority’ we have is from God - just as our ministers declare before absolution.

P.S - Ben, I really, truly do admire your patience here and willingness to help us understand Lutheranism. It requires a commitment on your part to bear through it all and thank you for that.

That’s really kindl! And thank you - and thanks to all Catholics for doing God’s work.

 

[benjohnson]

I’ll will say that those who seem to have a misplaced distrust or less charitable view of the Catholic church, would more tend to find themselves in RCIA class as they discover that perhaps the shell of facts they have carefully build may not necessarily be true.

Sadly, those of us who admire 99.95% of the Catholic church are probably immune to waters of the Tiber and are content with their little alpine German spring and creek.

Personally, I’d rather learn from my Catholic friends because fundamentally by learning about their faith, I learn about my faith.

But then again, I do like to spar now and then, so thanks for putting up with me.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I’ll will say that those who seem to have a misplaced distrust or less charitable view of the Catholic church, would more tend to find themselves in RCIA class as they discover that perhaps the shell of facts they have carefully build may not necessarily be true.

Sadly, those of us who admire 99.95% of the Catholic church are probably immune to waters of the Tiber and are content with their little alpine German spring and creek.

Personally, I’d rather learn from my Catholic friends because fundamentally by learning about their faith, I learn about my faith.

But then again, I do like to spar now and then, so thanks for putting up with me.

:slapfight:

 

[benjohnson]

This statement from many Lutherans really confuses me lol:banghead:

In my best teenager voice: “Your not the boss of meeeeee!”



Frankly, if we we didn’t think we’re the OHCAC, we would need to find it.

 

[aidanbradypop]

In my best teenager voice: “Your not the boss of meeeeee!”



Frankly, if we we didn’t think we’re the OHCAC, we would need to find it.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/churb2.htm A good read.

I just spoke with my SD, Mosignor G, and asked him this question. He stated that “in a general sense that Lutherans are part of the One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic Church. Note the lower case “c” as simply meaning universal and not the Catholic Church which Christ established. All Christians are member of the OHcAC whether they want to admit it or not. Some do not admit it, hence the reason they deny the creeds.”

So that is from Mosignor G. We are taught as Catholics that the Roman Catholic Church is the true Church, BUT Christ can use the other communities to glorify God as well.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ben…It is actually kind of funny when I think about…Most of the Lutherans here are anti Catholic and pretty much anti LCMS. From listening to them talk bad about the LCMS, I formed a biased opinion of the LCMS that was far from the truth. I have never met a more charitable Lutheran than you and Jon! I placed you before Jon cause he can be a cranky old man sometimes. If you are ever in Fargo, which I pray you are not for your sake. I would love to have dinner with you and consider you a brother in Christ!

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

Daniel…you have yet to answer my question. You may have missed it so I will post it again.

What error do you find in the Catholic Church?
If we knew where you found error instead of a lot of word play and 100 verses then it would make it easier to have dialog!

I can’t say that I’m looking to find error, and would be very pleased that I don’t.

Our congregations have become somewhat estranged from one another, over the centuries; and neither of us are the Mid-Evil or Counter-Reformation Churches that we once were. There’s certainly room to form an opinion.

I believe that Lutherans need to encounter more of “you” on this forum; because the average Roman Catholic that we bump into in life have very loose explanations for dogmas.

Thou shalt have no other Gods before me…
It often implies a polytheistic worship of the papacy, saints, and the Virgin Mary; though that opinion would be challenged here and should be challenged, to a non-Roman Catholic it can be construed as such.

The purpose of Scripture isn’t to focus on every extra-regional Church that worships Yahweh and Christ; but rather to point to the integrity of God to deliver on his promises, the gift of the Law, the gift of faith through his Spirit, that we may obtain his grace at the cross of Christ Jesus. Scripturally, many of the Profits were far from being in charge of God’s Church, but were outcast for not subduing to the spiritual corruption within the Church, as God used his profits to bring repentance back into his Church.

Conciliarism is the most predominant form of managing the “Church” from the 70-Elders of Moses, to the Levitical Priesthood, and later the Sadducees who emerged out of Persian captivity, and the 12-Apostles of Christ. The papacy doesn’t support the historical management style put into place by God; who by the way was displeased with his people when they demanded a singular king over the “Church”, and God gave them King Saul who dealt with the “Church” harshly, for contempt of God’s order as he established.

Also, in the New Testament, it reveals an anxious Simon-Peter (Cephas) who was very eager to serve his God. To calm Peter, God told him that he would be the foundation of the “Church”, Peter got big headed and offered to die on the cross in Christ Jesus’ place. A foundation consists of many stones, and Christ Jesus refers to himself as the cornerstone, which holds all others together. This in no way implies that the other 11-Apostles wouldn’t also serve as the foundation of God’s “Church” on earth. Throughout Scripture, we see all Twelve Apostles, administering the Office of the Keys (some apart from Peter), and all Seven Churches of Revelation were caretakers of the Office of the Keys, and are on the verge of loosing their Institution of the Keys towards end times.

Purgatory was written into the Deutero-canon, after the Kione Septuagint canon had already been in circulation for over a century, without it; and after the death of Christ Jesus and his Apostles, so none of the Deutero-canon Scripture has ever been quoted or applied under either the Gospels or Epistles or the Old Testament. Jesus says if we aren’t judged by our faith in his grace, that we must be judged under the law. The law is usually more black and white, than that of grace, for most Christians: Roman Catholics, Lutherans or otherwise; which again makes Purgatory a difficult concept for many where we’re bound to the law according to Christ Jesus, where grace has not yet been received.

Unlike this forum, where scriptural knowledge is used, most Roman Catholics quote out of their Roman Catechism, which makes dialogue difficult were most Christians use a Bible rather than a catechism as their primary source. My pastors have taught Sunday school out of the Hebrew and Greek, so that we don’t loose what the English language poorly conveys. In frustration, many Roman Catholics will just tell us to go read their catechism to find the answer for ourselves. It has never occurred to me in any Christian dialogue to quote or directly reference our catechism or Book of Concord. Unlike debating the Southern Baptist or Pentecostal-Methodists that I’m accustomed too around greater-Atlanta, only Roman Catholics have ever asked me what does your catechism say on the matter. Like Lutherans, there aren’t many Catholics here in the “Deep South”, so dialoguing with Roman Catholics is a change of pace. My personal elder, assigned to my family, was born and raised Roman Catholic, and he indicated that reading the Bible was discouraged as everything of use to him had already been placed in the Roman Catechism, according to his priest. This sort of reminds me of Thomas Jefferson’s Bible, which he dissected out the Scripture for which he didn’t agree. Also, Roman Catholics are more aggressive debaters on doctrine as opposed to the Bible itself. So, I would say that a fear of justification by doctrine (law of the Church), rather than the Word of God (grace through Christ in the canon), exists among non-Roman Catholics.

 

[benjohnson]

Ben…It is actually kind of funny when I think about…Most of the Lutherans here are anti Catholic and pretty much anti LCMS. From listening to them talk bad about the LCMS, I formed a biased opinion of the LCMS that was far from the truth. I have never met a more charitable Lutheran than you and Jon! I placed you before Jon cause he can be a cranky old man sometimes. If you are ever in Fargo, which I pray you are not for your sake. I would love to have dinner with you and consider you a brother in Christ!

Our dear ELCA friends can be quite ‘reformed’ or ‘secular’ - though I’ve been to very traditional ELCA churches as well so I can’t quite discount them.

If there’s any kindness in my dialog with other people, I would point to Jon as my mentor.
…

That’s very kind, and I’d love to take you up on the offer!

If you’re in Seattle, you and any family would be welcome in my home - Every few months, I organize a “Holy, Holy, Holy Sunday” with a great group of Lutherans, Catholics, and others:

We start off at a Lutheran church where you’ll hear a really amazing organ and a great sermon, we then have breakfast, and then go to an Extraordinary Form Mass (Traditional Latin Mass), and have fun in Seattle then we go to a Anglican/Episcopal Evensong in the evening.

The best thing about Seattle when it comes to Christianity is that we’re right in the center of the secular world - you can’t throw a rock without hitting someone that needs the Lord.

 

[benjohnson]

I sincerely wish that every Catholic I meet would be a feisty defender of true Catholic thought, just as I wish every Lutheran I met would crack open the Book Of Concord and read it and understand it.

Wouldn’t that be a wonderful world? If we could all argue with each other from a position of full understudying of our faiths?

 

[aidanbradypop]

I believe that Lutherans need to encounter more of “you” on this forum; because the average Roman Catholic that we bump into in life have very loose explanations for dogmas.

Me? what did I do now? lol

Thou shalt have no other Gods before me…
It often implies a polytheistic worship of the papacy, saints, and the Virgin Mary; though that opinion would be challenged here and should be challenged, to a non-Roman Catholic it can be construed as such.

I cannot help how one construes something in their mind. Can I? If I tell you that I do not worship the BVM and yet you still believe I do, then I cannot help you on that. Right?

Also, in the New Testament, it reveals an anxious Simon-Peter (Cephas) who was very eager to serve his God. To calm Peter, God told him that he would be the foundation of the “Church”, Peter got big headed and offered to die on the cross in Christ Jesus’ place. A foundation consists of many stones, and Christ Jesus refers to himself as the cornerstone, which holds all others together. This in no way implies that the other 11-Apostles wouldn’t also serve as the foundation of God’s “Church” on earth. Throughout Scripture, we see all Twelve Apostles, administering the Office of the Keys (some apart from Peter), and all Seven Churches of Revelation were caretakers of the Office of the Keys, and are on the verge of loosing their Institution of the Keys towards end times.

Kind of like Bishops today right? A great tract on Peter’s authority catholic.com/magazine/articles/peter%E2%80%99s-authority

And here scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

Unlike this forum, where scriptural knowledge is used, most Roman Catholics quote out of their Roman Catechism, which makes dialogue difficult were most Christians use a Bible rather than a catechism as their primary source.

Oddly enough, I encounter that problem with my Lutheran friends here. I actually use Sacred Scripture in my talks and they always refer me to Luther’s large and small catechism. Now I use the Catechism when it come to Sacred Tradition.

Unlike debating the Southern Baptist or Pentecostal-Methodists that I’m accustomed too around greater-Atlanta, only Roman Catholics have ever asked me what does your catechism say on the matter. Like Lutherans, there aren’t many Catholics here in the “Deep South”, so dialoguing with Roman Catholics is a change of pace

I was born and raised in Tennessee so I understand what you mean.

My personal elder, assigned to my family, was born and raised Roman Catholic, and he indicated that reading the Bible was discouraged as everything of use to him had already been placed in the Roman Catechism, according to his priest.

I bolded the key point I wanted to stress. This may be a shocker for some, but a priest can and are wrong sometimes.

 

[aidanbradypop]

I sincerely wish that every Catholic I meet would be a feisty defender of true Catholic thought, just as I wish every Lutheran I met would crack open the Book Of Concord and read it and understand it.

Wouldn’t that be a wonderful world? If we could all argue with each other from a position of full understudying of our faiths?

Don’t come to a gun fight with a knife right? lol

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

Daniel…you have yet to answer my question. You may have missed it so I will post it again.

What error do you find in the Catholic Church?
If we knew where you found error instead of a lot of word play and 100 verses then it would make it easier to have dialog!

Sorry about this page break, I went over the character count limit.

These are just a few of the stereotypical arguments against Roman Catholicism that I’ve come across over the years. I would like to see many of them challenged to their end. One of my coworkers left Catholicism because she realized that all of her awards from the Church, because of all the works she performed, were becoming a distraction from the grace of God, as she just found herself competing against others for more works towards salvation. A couple of other coworkers asked me if I had turned in my Form 1040? To who would I give it? They were surprised that my Church doesn’t require all IRS Tax Form 1040 to be turned-in annually so properly calculate tithing. I told them that I had never even heard of such a thing, but they indicated that the Roman Catholic Church required this and had done so for as long as they had been with the Church, some apparently use W-2 instead of Form 1040. To me this is just a bit too intrusive for my own comfort, as it opens the door for gossip of your personal well-being.

My wife is Cambodian and the Khmer language barrier makes witnessing to my in-laws difficult. They’re practicing Theravada Buddhism, they do animal sacrifices to the dead, believe in a cycle of life that works off sins before entering Nirvana, they pray to the dead for guidance and favor in life, and have the Buddha as the spiritual mediator between mankind and our sinful nature. Though Roman Catholicism and Buddhism aren’t comparable enough to differentiate; I’ve often wondered if: Purgatory, veneration of the dead, and a tiered system of sins (venial, cardinal/mortal) hadn’t at some point become magnified in significance to somehow help the “Church” appeal more to the paganism that it was trying to convert? This is not a static point of view, but a curious thought, which I’m sure many Christians before me have probably considered as well.

Aside from Buddha himself, European paganism held many similar festivals and beliefs mirroring the Far East, perhaps from Mongolian influence, who knows?

 

[SteveVH]

I believe that Lutherans need to encounter more of “you” on this forum; because the average Roman Catholic that we bump into in life have very loose explanations for dogmas.

The same could be said for any faith tradition, though I will admit that we have more than our fair share.

Thou shalt have no other Gods before me…
It often implies a polytheistic worship of the papacy, saints, and the Virgin Mary; though that opinion would be challenged here and should be challenged, to a non-Roman Catholic it can be construed as such.

It implies nothing of the kind, if one understands the Catholic position, therefore construing the honor paid to saints as polytheism would be an error, right?

Conciliarism is the most predominant form of managing the “Church” from the 70-Elders of Moses, to the Levitical Priesthood, and later the Sadducees who emerged out of Persian captivity, and the 12-Apostles of Christ. The papacy doesn’t support the historical management style put into place by God; who by the way was displeased with his people when they demanded a singular king over the “Church”, and God gave them King Saul who dealt with the “Church” harshly, for contempt of God’s order as he established.

And then something happened that had never happened before. Jesus Christ came to the earth and established his own Church. The Catholic Church follows the model that Christ gave for his Church. It is understandable that those who have no claim of authority attempt to discount the very authority given to the Church by Christ himself and assume such authority for themselves, but that doesn’t make it right.

Purgatory was written into the Deutero-canon, after the Kione Septuagint canon had already been in circulation for over a century, without it; and after the death of Christ Jesus and his Apostles, so none of the Deutero-canon Scripture has ever been quoted or applied under either the Gospels or Epistles or the Old Testament. Jesus says if we aren’t judged by our faith in his grace, that we must be judged under the law. The law is usually more black and white, than that of grace, for most Christians: Roman Catholics, Lutherans or otherwise; which again makes Purgatory a difficult concept for many where we’re bound to the law according to Christ Jesus, where grace has not yet been received.

Purgatory was never “written into the Deutero-canon”, the word never appears. The concept does appear in 2 Maccabees which has always been part of the Deuterocanonical texts.

Unlike this forum, where scriptural knowledge is used, most Roman Catholics quote out of their Roman Catechism, which makes dialogue difficult were most Christians use a Bible rather than a catechism as their primary source.

It may make it difficult, but we cannot just pretend that the truth found in Sacred Tradition does not exist just because some choose to believe it doesn’t. The so-called “reformers” rejected nearly everything that the Church possessed, other than the Catholic’s holy Book. Even Luther rejected five of the seven sacraments. We cannot be expected to deny the truth that exists within our Church because others don’t possess it.

My personal elder, assigned to my family, was born and raised Roman Catholic, and he indicated that reading the Bible was discouraged as everything of use to him had already been placed in the Roman Catechism, according to his priest.

Of course, you know that this is a myth right? This is not taught by the Catholic Church. We are very much encouraged to read and study the Bible, within the context of Church teaching so that the words of Scripture are not separated from the faith that produced them.

So, I would say that a fear of justification by doctrine (law of the Church), rather than the Word of God (grace through Christ in the canon), exists among non-Roman Catholics.

Scripture only supports what has been believed since the beginning. We do not depend upon Scripture for our doctrines; they were established before we had a Bible. The Scriptural texts were canonized based upon how well they stacked up against the deposit of faith already held by the Church, as handed down by the Apostles.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Awesome question! We should ask ourselves this question every day.

I’m in spiritual communion with my Catholic brothers in christ - I lament that both our churches don’t commune each other.

Put it this way… when I go to a Catholic mass, I don’t think of it as ‘outside’ or ‘alien.’ I can see the body and blood of christ, I can hear the Gospel, I see God’s people all around me. But I get that in my church as well, and it’s the church that God has placed me, so I’m content.

All of the above is based on something you say later, which I will adress as it comes up because it will be more clear then.

As for how many communions there can be - there should be one holy, catholic, apostolic church.

Is only
"one, holy …

And “*I believe… *
in the communion [not communions] of saints”.

So it is not so much that we believe there should be one communion; I think it is plain enough that we profess in the Creed our belief that there is, in reality, only one communion (singular). To be sure, though, I understand your important observation of a spiritual communion. I suspect it is from a deeper consideration of this, combined with such beliefs as baptism of desire and Catholics having a spiritual communion when, e.g., they cannot (for whatever valid reason) actually partake of the Eucharist, that the concept of partial and full communion began to develop. A sacramentally baptized infant has never actually received the Eucharist, though baptism does, in fact, ordain them (so to speak) to it, as it also obviously ordains them to rendering due worship to God their Maker, Creator, Sustainer, Redeemer and Saviour, etc.

It’s a scandal that we’re not in full communion, and may God deal gently with us.

I agree.

And we don’t hear Luther’s Gospel - we hear the Gospel. As I’ve told my pastor, if our church burned down to the ground, and all that remained was him, a few partitioners, a bible, some bread and wine, we’d still have a church. If our memories were better, we wouldn’t even need the bible.

And this, for me, is why Protestantism was -for all the faults of Catholics and even the all too human failures of the living Church- rash. Christians do, in fact, continually have and enjoy the living and inerrant memory of the Holy Spirit. This is, in fact, the basis of so many Catholic beliefs and even traditions and customs that were, all of them, more or less outgrowths or developments of the Gospel or arose from belief in it. Christendom more or less lived and breathed the Gospel. At some point, however, some persons began to doubt and disbelieve that the Holy Spirit really was reminding, guiding and guarding the Church always down and through all centuries - certainly, at least, in maintaining whole and entire everything that was necessary and important.

Jn 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Ergo, some persons awoke, so to speak, one day and began to question - and to doubt - everything about them. They began to second guess, wittingly or not, the Lord’s aforementioned promise that the Holy Spirit would remain with us in His Church and guide us into all the truth, reminding us of whatever He had taught. This resulted in the tragedy of the whole of Christianity being subjected, at every point, to controversy, much to the scandal of non-Chistians then and since.

You’ll notice that Lutherans spend pretty much no time trying to convert to Catholics and Orthodox - we positively spend a lot of time going after agnostics, other religions and Christians because we feel they are not getting the sacraments and the gospel.

I feel this doesn’t really answer my question.

Any ‘authority’ we have is from God - just as our ministers declare before absolution.

True, but beside the point. Parents have authority from God, as do secular leaders. None of this means that they are necessarily Christians, nor does it even require them to believe the Gospel, or is somehow proof that they do believe it.

That’s really kindl! And thank you - and thanks to all Catholics for doing God’s work.

You’re welcome!

 

[1AugustSon7]

Unlike this forum, where scriptural knowledge is used, most Roman Catholics quote out of their Roman Catechism, which makes dialogue difficult were most Christians use a Bible

Two things:

1. The Catechism is awash in quotes from the Bible and footnotes to it. Even when other documents are cited from the Magisterium, those documents themselves contain footnotes to it.
2. Most Christians are Catholics.

EDIT: ADDED: In fact, in addition to #1. above, I enjoy sometimes adding more scripture proofs to those already given in the Catechism, and even add them when there aren’t any.

 

[SteveVH]

Most Christians are Catholics.

Well done.

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

I sincerely wish that every Catholic I meet would be a feisty defender of true Catholic thought, just as I wish every Lutheran I met would crack open the Book Of Concord and read it and understand it.

Wouldn’t that be a wonderful world? If we could all argue with each other from a position of full understudying of our faiths?

I would think we’d be too busy praising God at that point to bother with arguing.

 

[Daniel_Stinson]

So you are not of the opinion that St. Peter was capable of writing infallibly? Yes, or no, Daniel. Or, to put it without the double negatives: Was St. Peter writing infallibly? Yes, or no?

I hate to speak for PRmerger, but I think you are missing the point she is trying to express. St. Peter was a sinner just like you and I. He denied Christ 3 times in one night. No one is denying his sins and I’m sure he would be the first to point them out as well. They point is, when it came to matters of faith, St. Peter could not speak any error, nor those who sat in the Chair of St. Peter after him. If the Popes are not infallible, then how can one be sure that the Sacred Scripture is the word of God? What if a text that didn’t make was meant to make it?

Could you please answer the question, Daniel? Was St. Peter capable of being infallible when he wrote his encyclicals, 1 Peter and 2 Peter? Yes or no? It seems to be a simple enough question, don’t you think?

May I go one more step and ask if the Pope and Church were infallible when the Sacred Scriptures were put into the Canon we know today? Just askin lol

lol…my coffee is good…it is way to cold outside…and I want Daniel to answer my questions…There how is that?

SOLA SCRIPTURA
The Bible is God’s inerrant and infallible Word, in which He reveals His Law and His Gospel of salvation in Jesus Christ. It is the sole rule and norm for Christian doctrine.
lcms.org/page.aspx?pid=388
Dr. A.L.Barry President, The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
posted by Paul T. McCain 1/10/2002
lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=1081
What About the Bible?
Why is the Bible so important?
Our Lord Jesus said,“If you remain in my Word,truly you are my disciples”(John 8:31).The divine authority and reliability of the Bible does not rest on the persons God used to write the Bible, nor on the endorsement of the Bible by the church,but rests entirely on the fact that it is the Word of the Lord.How do we know this? This confession of the Bible’s
complete authority is part of the certainty of the faith God gives to us as a gift.

Real human beings were given real words from God to write down.As our Lord Jesus Christ was both true God and true man, so the Bible is truly the Word of God and also the writing of human beings. Even as our Lord Jesus took on human flesh free from sin and error, so God used human beings to provide a written revelation of Himself that is free from error.Thus,we believe that the Bible is both incapable of error (infallible) and free from error (inerrant).

The Bible has a very important distinction one needs to keep in mind in order to understand the Bible correctly: the difference between Law and Gospel.The Bible reveals God’s perfect holiness and righteousness, and His expectation of perfection. His Law, summarized best in the Ten Commandments,reveals our sinful rebellion and our inability
to save ourselves.The Gospel is the joyful news that our Lord Jesus Christ has given us complete forgiveness from our sins through His life,death and resurrection for us.The proper distinction between Law and Gospel is the key to understanding the Bible correctly.

2 Timothy 3 All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted,
13 while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it
15 and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Ephesians 2 One in Christ
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility
15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,
16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.
17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near.
18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

John 10 I and the Father Are One
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

 

[SteveVH]

One of my coworkers left Catholicism because she realized that all of her awards from the Church, because of all the works she performed, were becoming a distraction from the grace of God, as she just found herself competing against others for more works towards salvation. A couple of other coworkers asked me if I had turned in my Form 1040? To who would I give it? They were surprised that my Church doesn’t require all IRS Tax Form 1040 to be turned-in annually so properly calculate tithing. I told them that I had never even heard of such a thing, but they indicated that the Roman Catholic Church required this and had done so for as long as they had been with the Church, some apparently use W-2 instead of Form 1040. To me this is just a bit too intrusive for my own comfort, as it opens the door for gossip of your personal well-being.

You sure talk to some strange Catholics. All of her awards are a distraction? What awards?I have never in my entire life as a Catholic heard of the Church handing out awards for certain works. I have volunteered at my Church for the better part of my adult life to the point of putting iin 20-30 hours a week at times and I’m lucky if I can get a thank you. If your Catholic friend has a problem with pride getting in the way of her relationship with God that is a personal issue, not a Catholic issue.

As far as anything to do with the IRS the Church simply documents what you have given for use in figuring your taxes. Many people just throw in cash and never receive anything from the Church. You are completley mischaracterizing the entire thing.