Establishing new churches...

[Prodigal_Son1]

I think I confused words here: I think you are right that I meant essentials and not “basic principles”.
Sometimes I’m just lacking words…

Bible Churches are IMO Churches with credo-baptism, like Anabaptists, Baptists, Pentecostals and similar ones. I’d say they differ VERY LITTLE in doctrine.

See above.

I think we all are united in Christ. And the hick-hack around these doctrinal differences are not really that important…

Well, I still believe that the “Bible Churches” as I called them, don’t have different truths…

His will IS to be worshipped. To worship Him in Spirit and Truth. [23 But the hour cometh, and now is, **when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth

: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

It’s not about one’s individual will. It’s about the will of God. See above.

First, look at your response. Even though I requested you use Bible scriptures to support your view, you did not. That’s because the Bible does not teach the view you are espousing.

So you believe ALL interpretations of scriptures are alike and in agreement? If there are different interpretations, they have different truths.

Oh, I think you maybe attempting to gloss over the differences. What about infant baptism? Speaking in tongues? Divorce? Abortion? Real presence? The Trinity? There are many differences and having all these differences allow people to find a Church/Doctrine that will fit their lifestyle as opposed to fitting a lifestyle to His truth. Are the few differences I question in this paragraph, as you say, ‘not really all that important’?

The Bible certainly does not teach ‘essentials’, allowing for differences. In fact, the Bible teaches one mind and of the same judgement and to avoid those who create dissensions.

We are to serve Him according to His will and not according to what we are willing to do.

 

[Esdra]

First, look at your response. Even though I requested you use Bible scriptures to support your view, you did not. That’s because the Bible does not teach the view you are espousing.

So you believe ALL interpretations of scriptures are alike and in agreement? If there are different interpretations, they have different truths.

Oh, I think you maybe attempting to gloss over the differences. What about infant baptism? Speaking in tongues? Divorce? Abortion? Real presence? The Trinity? There are many differences and having all these differences allow people to find a Church/Doctrine that will fit their lifestyle as opposed to fitting a lifestyle to His truth. Are the few differences I question in this paragraph, as you say, ‘not really all that important’?

The Bible certainly does not teach ‘essentials’, allowing for differences. In fact, the Bible teaches one mind and of the same judgement and to avoid those who create dissensions.

We are to serve Him according to His will and not according to what we are willing to do.

I am NOT talking about the various Protestant denominations, but the ones called Evangelical-conservative. (Which I call “Bible-Christians”; i.e. [like I already had written above btw!], Baptists, Pentecostals and Anabaptists!

So, as far as I know, the Churches/denominations mentioned above all have the same view of your points here:

What about infant baptism? Speaking in tongues? Divorce? Abortion? Real presence? The Trinity?

NO Infant baptism
Tongues: among Penteocostals more, but also in the others accepted, because its supported by St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians. (AT least my church does pray for the gifts of the holy Spirit!)
Divorce: If you are reborn, you should not. Because then you would violate God’s and Crhist’s commandments!
Abortion: strictly prohibited!!
**Real Presence: No **
Trinity: Absolutely yes. (see also my postings with benidict in “Is Adventism Christian?”)

You see finally my point? What I wanted to say with the previous two posts?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am NOT talking about the various Protestant denominations, but the ones called Evangelical-conservative. (Which I call “Bible-Christians”; i.e. [like I already had written above btw!], Baptists, Pentecostals and Anabaptists!

So, as far as I know, the Churches/denominations mentioned above all have the same view of your points here:

NO Infant baptism
Tongues: among Penteocostals more, but also in the others accepted, because its supported by St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians. (AT least my church does pray for the gifts of the holy Spirit!)
Divorce: If you are reborn, you should not. Because then you would violate God’s and Crhist’s commandments!
Abortion: strictly prohibited!!
**Real Presence: No **
Trinity: Absolutely yes. (see also my postings with benidict in “Is Adventism Christian?”)

You see finally my point? What I wanted to say with the previous two posts?

As a convert, who used to attend Pentecostal and Baptist Churches at different times, I can tell you there is a disagree between the various denominations of Pentecostals themselves. While some believe tongues is a sign of grace/salvation, some say it is required. As far as my experiences are concerned, I’ve never seen a Baptist who believed in speaking tongues.

Now, look at your answers above, next to the few points I’ve raised. There variations of Baptists would not agree, just as the various denominations of Pentecostals would not agree.

I’m going to give you one more chance to provide scriptures showing Churches with different ‘essentials’ and that they were accepted as such by the Apostles, or even Christ Himself.

What you describe with the Holy Spirit guiding people in different directions, even slight, is not being one as Jesus prayed everyone would be. You and I are disagreeing on interpretations of scriptures right now. Show me the scriptures that give your interpretation the authority to tell me that mine is wrong.

Again, please provide the scriptures to support your view.

 

[CMatt25]

Let’s say there are only 500 different denominations, with slight to great differences in teachings/doctrines. Isn’t that too many?

I think we all are united in Christ. And the hick-hack around these doctrinal differences are not really that important…

Nice words Esdra.

Many members one. Many grapes make the wine and many grains make the bread, the Body of Christ. And it is both our unity in Him and He that are far greater than any differences we mere humans might have. It is He Whom we together worship Who breaks down walls. May blessings fall upon all of His children as they walk. Not by sight but by faith. And peace to all as we walk on this earth.

 

[CMatt25]

You ask an interesting question. It made think about some of the catholic folks here and how they post serious problems about their parish priest. They will say for example he is teaching something completely contrary to what church teaching is. Every time the response is go to another parish in their locale. Now what if there is no other catholic church in their area what are they to do? What kind of response can they expect from their local diocese and how long should they have to wait for the problem to be solved? Will it ever be resolved?

Excellent point. I believe it was Prodigal who said he wrote to his bishop for correction. I once wrote a bishop in yr 2000 when a priest during his homily said to vote Republican. Didn’t have a reply but the next Mass I attended, the priest walked by, glancing a look towards me. and I had a feeling he was aware of my complaint. I stopped going there while he was pastor. Now fast fwd 10 yrs later and at another parish a priest says in his homily and I quote, “my answer to the poor is to get a job”. No matter I guess the economy at the time. Haven’t been back there since.

 

[po18guy]

It is Lent. I will pray for those who have decided to walk their own paths, apart from their brothers and sisters.

 

[joe370]

Hey Esdra, interesting perspective. So all churches, regardless of denomination, and when they were founded, that embrace the 5 teachings listed below all belong to the same church? That seems to rule out the only 2 churches that can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostolic age which is the Eastern orthodox church and the Catholic church for both believe that “faith without works is dead,” as per the bible, and they clearly do not embrace sola scriptura.

According to you one of the criteria for starting a church is embracing the practice of sola scriptura. Since sola scriptura is critical to one’s ability to start another church, where in scripture alone does it even suggest that it is permissible for anyone to start their own church just as long as he/she embraces the 5 following principles?

Yes, as I think that,if there are the “basic prinicples” taught, that’s no other Church.

“the Characteristics of Bible-Churches”

1. Believe in the Trinity (in an undoubtful way. benedict and I have been discussing that in his Thread “Is Adventism Christian?”)
2. sola scriptura - The Bible is the only Authority when teaching the word. (Guided by the Holy Spirit)
3. solus Iesus - Jesus is our Saviour. He died for us on the cross and therefore we can have again a relationship to His and our Father in Heaven. We need to grap that this is a gift and ACCEPT it.
4. solo fide - We are saved through the believe in the name of Jesus. → Baptism is an outward sign that we belong to Him. That we are children of God.
5. sola gratia - We are saved through God’s grace only. We don’t deserve salvation, for all have sinned! But God loves us so that gave us the chance to be saved through believe in His Son who has died for us on the cross - instead of us.
   And good works are not necessary for Salvation. But they are a side effect if you really love Jesus and are His disciple and are trying to do everything He commanded us to do.

If you accept these principles when starting your Church, then you didn’t start a new one, but again a part of the world-wide Church of God. THE CHURCH, if you want so.

And I also think in this light there are far less “different Protestant denominations” than 14,000 as some claim here that there were.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esdra
Let’s say there are only 500 different denominations, with slight to great differences in teachings/doctrines. Isn’t that too many?

I think we all are united in Christ. And the hick-hack around these doctrinal differences are not really that important…

If you ‘think’ we are all united,it still begs the question: Why the need to found other churches? Again, I am curious what chapter and verses gives anyone the authority to go found his/her own church, especially Sola Scriptura advocates who claim to follow the Bible to the last letter?

Doctrinal differences are not really important? According to who? Baptism for adults-only? Baptism for infancy,etc,etc,etc a bunch of other doctrines is not vital? So it is okay for some to deny the Trinity and yet others accept it? All of that does not matter?

 

[joe370]

Excellent point. I believe it was Prodigal who said he wrote to his bishop for correction. I once wrote a bishop in yr 2000 when a priest during his homily said to vote Republican. Didn’t have a reply but the next Mass I attended, the priest walked by, glancing a look towards me. and I had a feeling he was aware of my complaint. I stopped going there while he was pastor. Now fast fwd 10 yrs later and at another parish a priest says in his homily and I quote, “my answer to the poor is to get a job”. No matter I guess the economy at the time. Haven’t been back there since.

Well, priests are just men prone to sin and error like the rest of us, but thanks to the chain of command that goes all the way to the office of Peter, they can be held accountable for their errors and mistakes, or I suppose they can leave the CC and start their own church. No doubt more is expected from these church leaders and they will be judged more harshly if they are the downfall of another for they have been given much and much is expected of them:

When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required Luke 12

Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Excellent point. I believe it was Prodigal who said he wrote to his bishop for correction. I once wrote a bishop in yr 2000 when a priest during his homily said to vote Republican. Didn’t have a reply but the next Mass I attended, the priest walked by, glancing a look towards me. and I had a feeling he was aware of my complaint. I stopped going there while he was pastor. Now fast fwd 10 yrs later and at another parish a priest says in his homily and I quote, “my answer to the poor is to get a job”. No matter I guess the economy at the time. Haven’t been back there since.

The problem I wrote about was corrected. You really left because of a ‘glancing look’ in your general direction? It just seems ironic that you would leave a Church over a ‘glancing look towards’, as opposed to sharing a loving correction. It makes me wonder why you choose to share those loving corrections with members of CAF, to the point of being in the top ten posters?

One of the main reasons I sought out something different, when I was a Protestant, was the prosperity gospels so many Protestant pastors preach.

 

[CMatt25]

It is Lent. I will pray for those who have decided to walk their own paths, apart from their brothers and sisters.

As the Apostle James said, Let us pray for one another (James 5:16) and “Do not complain, brothers, about one another, that you may not be judged. Behold, the Judge is standing before the gates.” (James 5:9) Peace.

 

[CMatt25]

The problem I wrote about was corrected. You really left because of a ‘glancing look’ in your general direction? It just seems ironic that you would leave a Church over a ‘glancing look towards’, as opposed to sharing a loving correction. It makes me wonder why you choose to share those loving corrections with members of CAF, to the point of being in the top ten posters?

One of the main reasons I sought out something different, when I was a Protestant, was the prosperity gospels so many Protestant pastors preach.

That’s great Prod! I’m glad it was. No I left the atendance of that parish while that particular priest was still the pastor. Besides the look of his glance, I did not want Republican politics mixed in with my faith. But I’ve been back. It is actually one of my preferred parishes around to worship Him in because comparably speaking it is less formal and decorative. Though I find it increasingly difficult not to find a union of sorts of Catholics and Republican politics anywhere nowadays. Which is just one thing which complicates my faith.

But anyway wow I’m still in top 10? :bigyikes: Well I was having the same thing to respond to it seemed on many threads. But well I haven’t had any nourishment today other than 8 oz of juice. So I might be heading off now for a meal. As always God bless Prod and peace.

 

[Esdra]

That’s great Prod! I’m glad it was. No I left the atendance of that parish while that particular priest was still the pastor. Besides the look of his glance, I did not want Republican politics mixed in with my faith. But I’ve been back. It is actually one of my preferred parishes around to worship Him in because comparably speaking it is less formal and decorative. Though I find it increasingly difficult not to find a union of sorts of Catholics and Republican politics anywhere nowadays. Which is just one thing which complicates my faith.

But anyway wow I’m still in top 10? :bigyikes: Well I was having the same thing to respond to it seemed on many threads. But well I haven’t had any nourishment today other than 8 oz of juice. So I might be heading off now for a meal. As always God bless Prod and peace.

Yes, I’ve just checked. You are actually since last week on position 2. Right after benidict.
And I am not in the top 10 anymore!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Even though we’ve seen the view of Bible only Churches and all ‘different’ Churches are one Church, we don’t see anyone attempt to support those views with scriptures?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I am NOT talking about the various Protestant denominations, but the ones called Evangelical-conservative. (Which I call “Bible-Christians”; i.e. [like I already had written above btw!], Baptists, Pentecostals and Anabaptists!

So, as far as I know, the Churches/denominations mentioned above all have the same view of your points here:

Esdra,

What about all the ‘Christian’ Churches excluded from your view as the correct Churches? Can’t you see that you made the argument that all Christian Churches are one, but they quickly became excluded as soon as you had to narrow them down, by just a very few differences listed?

What makes those Churches you’ve listed the correct Churches? Where did they receive their authority?

Why have you ignored my request for scriptural support of your view? It seems that view is non-Biblical when no scriptures are provided, that we could understand comes from an interpretation of scriptures even if we disagreed with your interpretation. Are there absolutely no scriptures to support your view on ‘Churches’?

 

[CMatt25]

Yes, I’ve just checked. You are actually since last week on position 2. Right after benidict.
And I am not in the top 10 anymore!

Well in that case Esdra, you need to step it up man. As for me I somewhat owe Benidict and a few others for my position. I was finding myself responding to faith quite a bit over the past wk.

 

[CMatt25]

Even though we’ve seen the view of Bible only Churches and all ‘different’ Churches are one Church, we don’t see anyone attempt to support those views with scriptures?

Prod, if despite differences we profess Jesus Lord, it is by the Holy Spirit. So it is by the Holy Spirit in which different churches do.

1Cor 12:3 “And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit”.

Further into the same chapter how the body is made of different parts is discussed.

And in Eph 2:14 it is Christ Whom breaks down walls. It is He, Prodigal Son, and our unity in belief in Him which is and Whom is greater than any differences.

Peace.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prod, if despite differences we profess Jesus Lord, it is by the Holy Spirit. So it is by the Holy Spirit in which different churches do.

1Cor 12:3 “And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit”.

Further into the same chapter how the body is made of different parts is discussed.

And in Eph 2:14 it is Christ Whom breaks down walls. It is He, Prodigal Son, and our unity in belief in Him which is and Whom is greater than any differences.

Peace.

**1Co 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing and that there be no schisms among you: but that you be perfect in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1Co 1:11 For it hath been signified unto me, my brethren, of you, by them that are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? **

**Rom 16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. All the churches of Christ salute you.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them.
Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not Christ our Lord but their own belly: and by pleasing speeches and good words seduce the hearts of the innocent.
Rom 16:19 For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good and simple in evil. **

**Eph 4:13 Until we all meet into the unity of faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the age of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That henceforth we be no more children tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the wickedness of men, by cunning craftiness by which they lie in wait to deceive. **

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Prod, if despite differences we profess Jesus Lord, it is by the Holy Spirit. So it is by the Holy Spirit in which different churches do.

1Cor 12:3 “And no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit”.

Further into the same chapter how the body is made of different parts is discussed.

And in Eph 2:14 it is Christ Whom breaks down walls. It is He, Prodigal Son, and our unity in belief in Him which is and Whom is greater than any differences.

Peace.

**Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. **

 

[benidict]

Yes, I’ve just checked. You are actually since last week on position 2. Right after benidict.
And I am not in the top 10 anymore!

How in the world did this happen?! Ive been trying to cut back. Now Im number 1?! I really need to get out more. Ah well. not too much longer and I will be in Hawaii again, with a vehicle. then its, SSSEEE YAAAAA! :tanning: Thanks for the Info Esdra.