Eternal life is eternal suffering when it is limited

[davidv]

This is unintelligent so no-one choose it!

Reality proves this wrong. The daily news is full of examples of unintelligent choices. These bad choices span from the ignorant to the very well educated.

How I could defend my argument when you don’t provide an counter-argument.

This is evidence that replies to your OP seem to be ignored.

It proves that eternal living is eternal suffering if you have limited access to experience. The sole use of new experience is just to keep you busy for a while. Isn’t it?

No.

It is quite in line of OP if you pay attention to my current argument and OP.

I have paid attention. That why I can state with certainty that you have not provided a valid, sound argument.

 

[Stephen_says]

Eternal life is eternal suffering when it is limited since we get used to any state of limited joy, then get frustrated and start to suffer. This means that Heaven is a misleading concept since it cannot promise an infinite joy because we are limited creature.

I disagree with your premises…I don’t even think I understand what you’re saying.

Every day to me is a different joy

 

[Bahman]

Let me see if I understand your argument:

1. Humans have limited experience
2. Any type of limited experience will inevitably lead to misery.
3. Heaven provides unlimited experience.
   4 . Since humans can only have limited experience even the limitless experience of heaven will eventually become misery.
4. Thus, heaven is misery.

Would you consider this to be a correct formulation of your argument?

Yes, except (3). 3. Heaven provides limited experience since we cannot have unlimited experience because we are not and will not be God.

 

[Bahman]

Eternal joy with God is the reward for such limited experiences.

What I am arguing is that eternal joy is not possible if you have limited experience.

Given the nature of human life, there are some experiences that should be limited. Sickness, death, wars, pestilence, etc.

Well.

 

[Stephen_says]

Yes, except (3). 3. Heaven provides limited experience since we cannot have unlimited experience because we are not and will not be God.

I don’t think your logic has proven that a limited being cannot have unlimited experiences. Experiences are not necessarily proportional to the limits of the human being. You seem to have just invented a justification for yourself based on no theology.

 

[Bahman]

Reality proves this wrong. The daily news is full of examples of unintelligent choices. These bad choices span from the ignorant to the very well educated.

There is no unintelligent choice if you could put yourself in shoes of people.

This is evidence that replies to your OP seem to be ignored.

You didn’t provide any counter-argument yet. You just quoted a couple verses.

No.

So you have never being bored of anything!?

I have paid attention. That why I can state with certainty that you have not provided a valid, sound argument.

I did. Any experience turns to be annoying and meaningless when it is repeated. Hence eternal life is eternal suffering once you realize that even different experience have just a functioning to keep you busy! Do you want more than that?

 

[Bahman]

I disagree with your premises…I don’t even think I understand what you’re saying.

Every day to me is a different joy

Everyday to you is a joy because everyday is different to you. What would happen to you when you are fulfilled with all possible experience here?

 

[davidv]

There is no unintelligent choice if you could put yourself in shoes of people.

You didn’t provide any counter-argument yet. You just quoted a couple verses.

So you have never being bored of anything!?

I did. Any experience turns to be annoying and meaningless when it is repeated.

A dubious claim. Rejected as untruthful.

Hence eternal life is eternal suffering once you realize that even different experience have just a functioning to keep you busy!

Based on a false premise. Rejected as untruthful?

Do you want more than that?

No. Spare us the illogic.

 

[Bahman]

I don’t think your logic has proven that a limited being cannot have unlimited experiences.

How do you define a limited being? A limited being by my definition is a being which have limited access to what can be experienced. Moreover any single experience has a sole functioning which is to keep an intellectual being busy since it does not have any extra value. You lose your lost for any new experience once you realize this! Ok, a new experience. So what?

Experiences are not necessarily proportional to the limits of the human being.

They are and they couldn’t help if they are otherwise.

You seem to have just invented a justification for yourself based on no theology.

You don’t need theology or revelation when we could share common sense.

 

[Bahman]

A dubious claim. Rejected as untruthful.

How? You need to provide an argument.

Based on a false premise. Rejected as untruthful?

It is not. Any single experience has a sole functioning to make an intellectual being to perform an action. That is the whole story. The truth.

No. Spare us the illogic.

It is in fact quite logical and sufficient.

 

[SPBlitz]

You mention that the sole function of experience is solely to motivate someone to action. You need more evidence to make a sweeping assumption like this.

 

[Bahman]

You mention that the sole function of experience is solely to motivate someone to action. You need more evidence to make a sweeping assumption like this.

So lets imagine otherwise, the lack of any experience at all, which is equivalent with the state of death. No experience, no action. You need more evidence? Just contemplate on yourself. This applies to everything.

 

[SPBlitz]

I’m not too sure entirely what you’re trying to say here. At most all I see is the statement that without anything to experience then there is no experience. Which might be true enough, but I don’t really see how it’s relevant. At best I can see it as meaning that without experience there can be no action, but I don’t see how that means that action is necessary for experience. Even if it does, I still don’t see how it proves your point.

You say that death is equivalent to ‘no experience’ but that’s only true on an atheistic worldview. If we are talking about Heaven, then that statement is false. There is something to experience, namely, Heaven.

You also talk as if experience itself has no value and is only a means to an end (namely action), but you’ve provided no evidence to support this.

Your argument itself seems to have several other problems.

1. Humans have limited experience
2. Any type of limited experience will inevitably lead to misery.
3. Heaven provides limited experience since we cannot have unlimited experience because we are not and will not be God.
   4 . Since humans can only have limited experience even the limitless experience of heaven will eventually become misery.
4. Thus, heaven is misery.

Your first premise, that humans can only have limited experience, only applies to this life. I see no reason to believe that humans in heaven will be so limited in our capacity to experience. It may be true that humans cannot have an actual limitless experience, that doesn’t mean that we lack the potential for infinite experience. Its the same thing as the difference between an actual infinite and a potential infinite, just applied to humans.

Your second premise is also suspect. Your sole proof for it is that in this life it is possible to, over time, lose interest in things that we enjoy. Or, to put it another way: since you get tired of experience in this life, that means that you’ll also get tired of experience in Heaven. But that isn’t necessarily true. The key problem is the phrase ‘over time’. You are implying that Heavenly time is the same as Earthly time, only longer. But eternity is not the same as infinite time .Eternity is, according to C.S. Lewis, the eternal present. And our own experience shows that joy - not joy remembered or joy anticipated, but joy experienced in the present, is anything but misery.

This calls into question your third (and forth) premise, since, if it is possible for humans to experience a potential unlimited experience, than this premise is false.

 

[Bahman]

I’m not too sure entirely what you’re trying to say here. At most all I see is the statement that without anything to experience then there is no experience. Which might be true enough, but I don’t really see how it’s relevant. At best I can see it as meaning that without experience there can be no action, but I don’t see how that means that action is necessary for experience. Even if it does, I still don’t see how it proves your point.

Well, it seems that we agree upon the fact that experience is necessary for action. The contrary is true too since, the action is necessary for experience, since the state of no action, read it creation of state of affair, nothing can be experienced.

You say that death is equivalent to ‘no experience’ but that’s only true on an atheistic worldview. If we are talking about Heaven, then that statement is false. There is something to experience, namely, Heaven.

I was not talking the state of being in Heaven, instead the state of death when you have no experience.

You also talk as if experience itself has no value and is only a means to an end (namely action), but you’ve provided no evidence to support this.

What is the meaning of thirst? Nothing. You just experience a state of mind which leads you to satisfy it by acting, drinking water.

Your argument itself seems to have several other problems.

1. Humans have limited experience
2. Any type of limited experience will inevitably lead to misery.
3. Heaven provides limited experience since we cannot have unlimited experience because we are not and will not be God.
   4 . Since humans can only have limited experience even the limitless experience of heaven will eventually become misery.
4. Thus, heaven is misery.

That is quite correct.

Your first premise, that humans can only have limited experience, only applies to this life. I see no reason to believe that humans in heaven will be so limited in our capacity to experience. It may be true that humans cannot have an actual limitless experience, that doesn’t mean that we lack the potential for infinite experience. Its the same thing as the difference between an actual infinite and a potential infinite, just applied to humans.

Unlimited experience is only possible if you are Godly meaning that the infinite experience acts like inescapable trap if we could get it otherwise it would crush you. So everything could be up to you if you have freedom to choose it and control it.

Your second premise is also suspect. Your sole proof for it is that in this life it is possible to, over time, lose interest in things that we enjoy. Or, to put it another way: since you get tired of experience in this life, that means that you’ll also get tired of experience in Heaven. But that isn’t necessarily true. The key problem is the phrase ‘over time’. You are implying that Heavenly time is the same as Earthly time, only longer. But eternity is not the same as infinite time .Eternity is, according to C.S. Lewis, the eternal present. And our own experience shows that joy - not joy remembered or joy anticipated, but joy experienced in the present, is anything but misery.

The state of eternal present is the state without motion when you are completely trapped on what you are looking for. There is no way out of it.

This calls into question your third (and forth) premise, since, if it is possible for humans to experience a potential unlimited experience, than this premise is false.

I already discussed this issue. Unlimited experience means that you are in state of timeless since you cannot possibly experience everything and be in the state of time-bound. Which one do you prefer, timeless or time-bound, by which I mean motionless or motional. Needless to say that I don’t believe in time.

 

[jaimeleglise]

According to St. Therese, everyone in heaven will be filled joy with according to their capacity to love. A thimble full of water is just as full as a gallon jug full of water. Eternal joy means unending, which is one of the characteristics of heaven. In. the presence of God in heaven, there is no misery. They cannot co-exist.

With the help.of God, our life experiences on earth and purgatory if needed, prepare us and our souls to become capable of appreciating heaven.

 

[SPBlitz]

I was not talking the state of being in Heaven, instead the state of death when you have no experience.

You are either in a state of death (i.e. nothingness, as you put it) or in the Christian view of the afterlife (in this case Heaven). You can’t both exist in nothingness and in Heaven. Since we are discussing Heaven, then a state of non-existence is irrelevant.
(I know that there are other afterlives that can be conceived, but for simplicity I’m assuming either an atheistic view of annihilation or the Christian afterlife)

What is the meaning of thirst? Nothing. You just experience a state of mind which leads you to satisfy it by acting, drinking water.

You act as if there is no meaning to a state of mind. And obviously thirst has a meaning - that you need water. It is experienced by the mind, but that doesn’t mean that it is not real.

Unlimited experience is only possible if you are Godly meaning that the infinite experience acts like inescapable trap if we could get it otherwise it would crush you. So everything could be up to you if you have freedom to choose it and control it.

I still argue that it is possible to experience a potential unlimited experience. I don’t know why you are bringing free will into the argument.

The state of eternal present is the state without motion when you are completely trapped on what you are looking for. There is no way out of it.

Eternity is not being frozen in time. It is the eternal present. Instead of being ‘stuck’ in one moment in time, all moments are present. Those are two different things. You use words like ‘crush’ and ‘inescapable trap’ but that only applies to being frozen in time. Which is different than eternity.

I already discussed this issue. Unlimited experience means that you are in state of timeless since you cannot possibly experience everything and be in the state of time-bound. Which one do you prefer, timeless or time-bound, by which I mean motionless or motional. Needless to say that I don’t believe in time.

Clearly than your argument would only be valid if time doesn’t exist. I still don’t think it works, even granting the non-existence of time, but for your argument to work you have to prove that time doesn’t exist. You have not done this.

 

[Bahman]

You are either in a state of death (i.e. nothingness, as you put it) or in the Christian view of the afterlife (in this case Heaven). You can’t both exist in nothingness and in Heaven. Since we are discussing Heaven, then a state of non-existence is irrelevant.
(I know that there are other afterlives that can be conceived, but for simplicity I’m assuming either an atheistic view of annihilation or the Christian afterlife)

I just defined state of death for sake of argument when there is no experience arguing that action is not possible in this case.

I still argue that it is possible to experience a potential unlimited experience. I don’t know why you are bringing free will into the argument.

My argument is around limited experience.

Eternity is not being frozen in time. It is the eternal present. Instead of being ‘stuck’ in one moment in time, all moments are present. Those are two different things. You use words like ‘crush’ and ‘inescapable trap’ but that only applies to being frozen in time. Which is different than eternity.

That I know. But the eternal state is the motionless state since all moments are present to you.

Clearly than your argument would only be valid if time doesn’t exist. I still don’t think it works, even granting the non-existence of time, but for your argument to work you have to prove that time doesn’t exist. You have not done this.

We experience forms and motion. We simply don’t have any sensory system to experience time. What exist outside also is simply form and motion.

 

[recentrevert]

Eternal life is eternal suffering when it is limited since we get used to any state of limited joy, then get frustrated and start to suffer. This means that Heaven is a misleading concept since it cannot promise an infinite joy because we are limited creature.

It is only in this life we get used to a limited state of joy; This is because we were made to receive our joy from God and so all created goods leave us ultimately unsatisfied. If we could be totally satisfied by created goods we would stop seeking God. Heaven gives us an infinite duration of happiness but not an infinite quantity. In heaven we will be perfectly satisfied with the happiness we have because our wills will be perfectly conformed to the will of God Who wills that we should experience the exact amount of joy we will be experiencing. In heaven, there will be one joy after another and we will look forward to the next joy, but this will not cause us suffering or prevent us from enjoying what we have. If you wish to know more about the joys of heaven I recommend you the Dialogues of St. Catherine of Siena.

 

[recentrevert]

We will have an eternal life in Heaven!

We are in presence of God right now! What difference could Heaven make?

Our life in heaven will be everlasting but not ‘eternal’ as God’s is because He has always been whereas we have not always been but always will be.

In heaven we will possess the ‘beatific vision’, meaning that God will, by the ‘light of glory’ allow our souls to perceive God directly rather than through the things He has created. This is our ultimate end - To do the will of God and obtain compete happiness. The happiness of the blessed is complete because it is not mingled with any suffering but that does not mean it is of infinite intensity. Here on Earth we cannot see God as He is although we know He is here.

 

[recentrevert]

This is unintelligent so no-one choose it!

The sole use of new experience is just to keep you busy for a while. Isn’t it?

People choose to act in such a way that they deserve hell for offending Infinite Goodness, but no-one wants to go to hell. People knowingly make unintelligent choices all the time.

The use of new experience in this life is to glorify God and obtain an eternal reward by using our time and opportunities to make morally good choices. In the next life new experiences will exist to glorify God by rewarding those who have pleased Him and giving us the opportunity to praise and thank Him.