Eternal Subordination economically

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I agree I am a fallen human being and maybe my natrue blocks me the rudeness of my expression that why I apologize regardless. I dont trust myself on that issue.

Brother what I mean to say it is not that is believed by Rome but that neither is condemned, surely subordination is condemned the one that was held by heretics who claimed Jesus was different ontologically, thats to say in essence that he was created.

I posted that blog because is sometimes believed eastern orthodox and catholics agree in 90%, I just wanted to show that the tradition of subordination (not ontologically) exists and the Monarchy of the Father is their way. Let me post something.
 
My only thing is the Eastern tradition got the Monarchy of the Father position because the eastern fathers is how they understood.
  • The Son does not say, “My Father is better than I,” lest we should conceive him to be foreign to his nature, but “greater,” not indeed in greatness nor in time, but because of his generation from the Father himself. (St Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, 1.58)
  • Since the Son’s origin (arche) is from the Father, in this respect the Father is greater, as cause and origin. This is why the Lord says, “My Father is greater than I.” Indeed, what else does the word Father signify unless being the cause and origin of that which is begotten of Him? (St Basil, Against Eunomius, 1.25)
  • Superior greatness belongs to the cause, equality to the nature… To say that [the Father] is greater than [the Son] in his humanity is certainly true, but it is not the point here, since it is no wonder that God is greater than man… (St Gregory of Nazianzus, Oration, 30.7)
  • If anyone say that the Father is greater in so far as He is the cause of the Son, we will not dispute this. But this, however, does not make the Son to be of a different essence. (St John Chrysostom, Homily, 70)
A.D. 150: We reasonably worship him, having learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, and holding him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third. (Justin Martyr, First Apology 13)

A.D. 185: For if anyone should ask the reason why the Father, who has fellowship with the Son in all things, has been declared by the Lord alone to know the hour and the day, he will find at present no more suitable, becoming, or safe reason than this: … For “the Father,” says he, “is greater than I.” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies II:28:8)

A.D. 250: Who does not acknowledge that the person of the Son is second after the Father … when he finds it written: “Because he who sends me is greater than I”? (A Treatise of Novatian Concerning the Trinity 26)

A.D. 300: For it was fitting that he who was greater than all things after the Father should have the Father, who alone is greater than himself, as his witness. (Methodius, The Banquet of the Ten Virgins: Discourse VII: Procilla ch. 1)

A.D. 320: The apostolic church believes in one Father unbegotten … who is unchangeable and immutable, who is always the same … and in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God… . That he is equally with the Father unchangeable and immutable, lacking in nothing, and the perfect Son, and like to the Father, we have learned. In this alone is he inferior to the Father, that he is not unbegotten … as the Lord himself has taught us when he says, “My Father is greater than I.” (Alexander of Alexandria, Letter to Alexander, Bishop of the City of Constantinople, par. 12)
 
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Are you anglican, evangelistic, or Armenian Orthodox?

I am a sister. 🙂

To understand and get an answer, first one must understand what heresy is.

You are coming from a position outside the church, so must understand the Catholic Church definition of heresy.
 
My long definition in my profile is because of this;

Arminian (I dont believe once saved always saved)

Anglican view of the sacraments “in general” (I have high respect and take seriously the seven sacraments)

Reformed views on baptism and the Lord’s supper (That means I believe in baptism of babies and the Real presence on the eucharist in the Agustinian mode.

Not cessationist neither charismatic. (I dont believe gifts are not with us nowadays, we stil having it but I think the most important thing is to seek piety not gifts)

Nice to meet you sister 🙂
 
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MCA said:
So he agrees with me even goes further than me and you are not understanding what I am saying if you are posting against my argument. Idk if you are backing me up or going against. He is actually saying something I dont even dare to say that the son get his divinity from the father. I affirm the autheos of the son. The three are equal in the essence and attributes. Ontology is one thing economical functionality is another
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Economic Trinity focuses on what God does whereas ontological Trinity focuses on who God is. St. Thomas Aquinas is answering the question of “Whether to create is proper to any person?”
 
Speaking of Christ in His human nature. Christ is forever a human not therefore as a human will subject Himself to the Father. Before the incarnation, there was no subjection for Christ was only Divine. After the incarnation, Christ is forever two nature’s. The subjection it is speaking of is Him submitting himself it His Father in His Human nature.
 
That’s actually a good point man. Ty for the insight. Later I writte why I would disagree tho.

God bless my bro
 
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MCA said:
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Vico:
Thomas Aquinas is answering the question of “Whether to create is proper to any person?”
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So what you mean by that brother?
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Aquinas is addressing the economic issue – God engaged with his creation.
 
Here I am again, for real you made me think a lot. Because ppl usually only admit subordination when Christ is in the state of “humilliation”. You made a good point saying yes after the resurrection he stills being subordinated in his human nature which actually stills posessing. I am impressed. I really appreciate your point.

Nontheless, I think before the encarnation you have subordination too. Keep in mind father and son in a jewish context is not gonna be understood as equal relations. It not a couple brothers, but Father and Son. Second, The world was created through Jesus, Jesus and not the father was instrumental cause.

But I have to admit your answer was impressive to me. Now you got me thinking

God bless
 
Thank you! I appreciate that you appreciated my point! 🙂

My thoughts on before the Incarnation are: While in their Divine Nature, I don’t see how One could subordinate Oneself to the Other. I can understand They have different roles in the creation of the universe, but difference in role doesn’t necessitate subordination. To me, the role of Father and Son implies not subordination (for there is no difference in will since subjection would imply a possibility or even the possibility of disagreement in will, for in submitting to someone we give over our will to the other, example being a wife who submits to her husband, you submit when you differ, not when you agree) but it implies relationship of a Father and Son, the Love They experience. I don’t see a need for subordination in the Triune God until the Son assumes human nature and then has a human will that needs to submit to the Father.
I think to infer subordination before the incarnation is a stretch without much backing Scriptural or in Tradition. In fact, in my reading, I see Tradition as backing a non-subordination of the Son to the Father in the Eternal past, and subordination only coming into play when the Son assumes a human nature, then as a man He must submit to God. Aquinas said: “to be understood of Christ’s human nature, wherein He is less than the Father, and subject to Him; but in His divine nature He is equal to the Father.”

God Bless
 
I deeply appreciate your coment for real. You made me a think a lot. Btw brother are you catholic right? Do you have any catholic articles, books or something that speak about subordination post ressurrection
 
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I am Catholic with all my heart!

And I don’t have any books per se, but through reading Aquinas and honestly listening to the apologist James White on youtube on his podcast when he talked about subordination in the eternal past helped me work through some of the issues.

Before I was Catholic, I was Reformed, and so I wrestled this issue when it became an issue in the Evangelical world. Then when I became Catholic and began reading Aquinas, I reached the parts on the Son in the Trinity and the Incarnation, and Aquinas pretty much lined up with what I had held to in the debate, that is that the Son was not subordinate to the Father before the Incarnation. 🙂
Hope this helps but God Bless you Brother!

Edit: No books or anything on Post-Resurrection subordination except for the passage in 1st Corinthians that you mentioned. To me it makes sense that since Christ is forever a Glorified Man, He would therefore submit Himself to the Father in His human nature.
 
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It does and a lot. I have in my profile I admire catholics and orthodox, I am here not only to talk but also for learning. Ty so much. Did you read the whole summa bro?
 
MCA said:
whole summa bro
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You are very welcome!

And unfortunately, no I have not read the entire Summa, that is something that I am working on. I stop reading and contemplate so much that it is taking me a long time haha. But I have read Peter Kreefts Summa of the Summa, basically a summary of Aquinas Summa. Really good! I recommend it.

If you don’t mind me asking, what is it that is keeping you from becoming Catholic? If you want you can PM me instead of public post for sake non-derailment of this post 🙂
God Bless
 
Lol I saw the whole volumes of the suma printed once and I though I will read that in heaven if I go there no time in space time dimension.

Yes later I will pm you and answer your question my brother.
 
God bless now is 22:25 here and as a good spaniard Imma have supper now. Lol.

Ty for your kindness.
 
Hey we’re in good company for I am a Spaniard as well!!!

except time for me is 11:31
 
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