Eternal Subordination economically

[Wesrock]

I agree entirely just notice is not the same to be the instrumental cause than the primary cause. But I hope as @Bithynian you see I am not holding any heresy, I am not denying the creeds. I am talking about a subject which is just not adressed by the Catholic brethern.

I will dig through Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma and Denzinger for some references, though it’ll have to be later.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

Fair enough.
How would you define the Holy Spirit? Is it God’s will?
How do u define a persons spirit? Is it his mind?
What about a persons soul?
A bit off topic but anyway… Link me to Church definitions if you like

 

[MCA]

Thank you brother

 

[Wesrock]

Fair enough.
How would you define the Holy Spirit? Is it God’s will?
How do u define a persons spirit? Is it his mind?
What about a persons soul?
A bit off topic but anyway… Link me to Church definitions if you like

The Holy Spirit isn’t God’s “spirit” in the sense of a human spirit. He is also not God’s will. As far as St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Thomas Aquinas thought, the procession of God willing his own goodness results in mutually exclusive relations, and from this procession there is a relation that is the Holy Spirit. Even apart from St. Augustine’s and St. Thomas’ more technical approach, it’s doctrine that the Holy Spirit results from the intra-procession of will and love God has for himself and the relations resulting from it. And I realize I hadn’t said anything technical so it amounts to the same thing.

 

[Wesrock]

I will add before I depart that the Church understands the Father as the first principle of the Trinity, the ungenerated, where from the Son and Holy Spirit proceed. [The eastern usage of the word cause implies a different notion than how we would use it.] However, the relations are what make them distinct. Nothing else. There is no one choosing to submit to the other as they are all equal in the Godhead in terms of possessing the Godhead. The Father does not choose to make the Son and Holy Spirit. God is essentially Triune in relations. That God necessarily by nature knows himself and loves himself is seen as the origins of the processions. By his Godhood, God could not choose to not know himself or love himself, for these would be imperfections.

 

[Bithynian]

There is no stance on this issue.

Yes, this is my understanding. It’s an issue that’s far removed from current Catholic theological discussions, and so there’s been little impetus for any broad theological reflection on the topic amongst Catholics. Likewise, the Magisterium has not - insofar as I’m aware - issued any definitive teaching that could stake out an unambiguous position in the debate.

If you look at some magisterial Catholic documents discussing the male priesthood (e.g. Ordinatio Sacerdotalis and Inter Insigniores), there is no attempt to link any functional difference between men and women to any hierarchy within the Trinity (in contrast to Fr Farley).

The Catholic understanding of the male priesthood relies strongly - but not exclusively - on Christ’s personal maleness and the nuptial theme of Christ as the bridegroom and the Church as the bride. In this sense, there’s no need to appeal to any hierarchical distinction between the persons of the Trinity.

 

[MCA]

A total pleasure to dialogue with you

 

[MCA]

For the eastern orthodox they say the Fathe alone has Autotheos. That’s to say the existence of Jesus and the Spirit is depending on the Father. Other orthodox as the article od Fr Farley posted before believe in the eternal subordination.

 

[Zaccheus]

Two or three natures? Divine, human and spirit?

Two natures. Human and Divine.

Mental gymnastics is the description I gave to the complex explanations I’ve heard from people trying to explain the trinity as if it’s not a mystery.

The Trinity is a mystery, in the theological sense. It’s a thing we could never have arrived at through human reasoning. It had to come as revelation from God.
Perhaps I mis-described your intent. If so I’m sorry.

What exactly did I say to make you think that?

You used the word ‘admit’. It sounds like I misunderstood your intent. Apology accepted and I apologize in return.

 

[Pai_Nosso]

You used the word ‘admit’. It sounds like I misunderstood your intent. Apology accepted and I apologize in return.

No problem i’ve always been better with numbers than words.
I like mystery, it’s a humbling admittance or acceptance of our inability to fully comprehend the power and wonder of God. Not just the Trinity but overall.
With patience and faith it will all be revealed to us one day my friend… God Bless

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Check the link and get into the fathers to see it. Plus my question is if the Catholic church condemnds it and I did not have an aswer from you my friend

Official Church links, Vatican links, not blogs. You have linked a blog.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

I’m sorry, but your use of large words does not make sense. I have no idea what you mean by “economically” and I’m sure others reading this also don’t understand.

I agree here. I think a few concepts are being conflated into one.

 

[Wesrock]

By economy he means how the inner relationships work together.

EDIT: So what he is saying is that while all three persons are co-equal in glory and power and majesty, in how they work together the Son (and Holy Spirit) subordinate themselves to the Father’s will. He is not referring to Jesus’ human nature, but to the three Divine Persons and the intrinsic relationships and activity of the Godhead. This can sound correct at first but the issue is that this veers off the traditional Catholic understanding of how the three persons stand in relationship to each other.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Fair enough.
How would you define the Holy Spirit? Is it God’s will?

I like the answer of Venerable Fulton Sheen.
The Son proceeds internally from the father. They are love, they gaze on each other with love. They breathe a sigh ‘ahhh’ of love, they are breathing the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
This is the Trinity.

 

[EndTimes]

Can a person be catholic and believe the three persons of the trinity are consubstantial equal (ontologically) but yet also belive the son is subordinated eternally in his function

Catholic… Trinity

Does one Know Each Divine Person OF the Trinity of Three Divine Persons?

Our Lord was conceived when God ’s Holy Spirit overshadowed the virgin Mary…

Note the Trinity

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

From Thomas Aquinas in Prima Pars, question 42, article 4, reply to objection 2: “to be understood of Christ’s human nature, wherein He is less than the Father, and subject to Him; but in His divine nature He is equal to the Father.”
The Son in His divine nature is not in a submissive or subject role to the Father. Only in His human nature does He subject himself to the Father.

God Bless

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

Subjection/Submissiveness can imply a possibility of differing wills, which is impossible in the Trinity, therefore God the Son is not subject to God the Father in His Divine Nature, but only in His human nature does He subject Himself to the Father.

 

[EndTimes]

The Son of God is not God the Father.

The Son of God is God’s WORD…

In Heaven, before Jesus’ incarnation -
it was God the Father who sent His Word to Redeem ManKind
And not the other way around, yes?

 

[MCA]

You are not even reading, it is an orthodox priest speaking. I never posted any catholic blog or document. Anyways for real if you dont have the the will to read and engage seriously over a serious thing just don’t make comments.

 

[MCA]

Thank you, you understood and you gave me an answer. But correct me if I am wrong, if there church does not condemn officially a theological position that position is not heresy right?