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Bahman
Guest
When things doesn’t follow deterministically or logically, when your intellect is helpless which is a hell for a living being.
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MarcoPG
Guest
Deterministically or logically. But the latter doesn’t need the first.
Or are you saying logic needs determinism? Because i don’t think it does.
It would be fatalism, and though we put our trust in God and know it will be how He wants, we may do things contrary to what would for you determined.
Ex from the webpage sfu.ca/~swartz/freewill1.htm#ldeterminism
Lecture Notes on Free Will and Determinism
You certainly don’t get to choose the laws that describe the charge on an electron or the properties of hydrogen and oxygen that explain their combining to form water. But** you do get to choose a great many other laws. How do you do that? Simply by doing whatever you do in fact do. **
For example, if you were to choose(!) to raise your arm, then there would be a timelessly true universal description (let’s call it “D4729”) of what you have done.** If, however, you were to choose not to raise your arm, then there would be a (different) timelessly true universal description (we can call it “D5322”) of what you did (and D4729 would be timelessly false). **
That is what God sees, what you do and not what you didn’t, thought he knows what you possibly could do, but will not be. And all that you do with your free-will has not been determined, still is permitted by God, and what is permitted by God is part of His Will. If one sins, it is not God’s will, but it is God’s will for you to choose.
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Bahman
Guest
All I was saying that one future is incompatible with free will once the agent is aware of foreknowledge which is easy argument. Your argument doesn’t address my point at all since all you are saying is that foreknowledge is compatible with free will if we accept the foreknowledge exist.
I however don’t understand how foreknowledge can be acquired without knowing what is free will and how could we be free if free will is knowable which is hard argument. In another word God needs to know what free will is in order to create an agent with free will however he cannot know since otherwise free will is knowable thing meaning one can know decision of a person in advance hence the agent is reduced to a machine and his/her free action as a functioning.
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Charlemagne_III
Guest
When people say they believe in free will, do you think they are deluded?
How is it not just as much a delusion to say?
“My genes made me a killer.”
“My peers made me a killer.”
“My wife made me a killer.”
“My boss made me a killer.”
“My religion made me a killer.”
“The devil made me a killer.”
Is determinism not just an endless search to blame others for our failings, while for our strengths we are always willing to take the credit?
And is fatalism not just an endless search to resign ourselves to defeat, and find something else or someone else to blame?
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MarcoPG
Guest
OK, “foreknowledge can be acquired without knowing what is free will.”
What do you mean by knowing what free-will is? Because for me knowing what that is is only having a definition of it, that is, my will is not predetermined.
Foreknowledge cannot be aquired, but through prophecy we may know part of the Future. in this future, and I can’t explain this, our free-will doesn’t vanish.
“how could we be free if free will is knowable” Don’t you take free-will for foreknowledge? Again, free-will is knowable, but it is a concept who doesn’t striclty need God to be explained. I don’t understand.
“God knows what free-will is” “However he cannot since otherwise free-will is knowable thing meaning one can know decision of a person in advance hence the agent is reduced to a machine”
No, once again, if you came back from the future and told what would happen, it would still happen because of the agents not because of you.
If you mean prophecy is something more than reporting, and may have some influence on things, you are wrong.
Interventions of God do not affect our will if we do not listen. God Almighty won’t force you.
Salvation in History is the greatest intervention of God, but the future of His plan rests on us. What we possibly can do, we decide, otherwise God alone; that’s not a question of free-will, but of nature.
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Bahman
Guest
All I can offer is that if free will really exist then it is indefinable since definability means that the outcome of situation A is knowable prior to decision which is contradictory with the definition of freedom leading to fatalism. In simple word fatalism is unavoidable if you could define free will.
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MarcoPG
Guest
Would you agree that this is in History or time only?
Why is free-will undefinable? defining free-will is not saying what free-will for you is?
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Bahman
Guest
Free will is not predetermined. That is acceptable but how God could know it. It is about how this knowledge can be acquired rather than whether foreknowledge is compatible with free will.
I meant how foreknowledge could be acquired by God not by us.
Free will is predictable if it is knowable.
We cannot come back from future.
A simple reporting could certainly have an impact on your behavior when you are told about your future decision.
Again, your decision is affected once you know foreknowledge.
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MarcoPG
Guest
You cannot know foreknowledge…that would make you God. You may have a revelation, but you can still try to counter it. Revelation doesn’t go on all the details. And why take it as fatalism, if it comes from God? I would rejoice.
And it would mean we will have done what we did (did what we will do and do it, eternally speaking
)
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Bahman
Guest
It doesn’t really matter. If we are machine from God point of view since he could know our decision prior to the decision time then we are machine anyhow. The fact that we just cannot know how we are functioning doesn’t grant a magical thing to us.
A word is definable if it is explicable in term of other words which all are definable. Each word has a functioning on our cognition hence an statement which completely defines free will define a functioning as well which is contrary to definition of freedom.
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MarcoPG
Guest
Ok, define Infinity, define God, define the self., define love. From your point of view you can’t, still you have an opinion.It doesn’t really matter. If we are machine from God point of view since he could know our decision prior to the decision time then we are machine anyhow. The fact that we just cannot know how we are functioning doesn’t grant a magical thing to us.
You say we are machines. I say we do what we want with our will and conscience, and God sees what we decided. A prophecy could never reveal the whole events in the future. Then we would have a problem. But Revelation comes with prudence and is selective, since the Holy Spirit is Prudence HImself. I agree, total knowledge would be a problem, but we cannot have nor carry such a weight.
A word is definable if it is explicable in term of other words which all are definable. Each word has a functioning on our cognition hence an statement which completely defines free will define a functioning as well which is contrary to definition of freedom.
That’s called the limits of language. We are talking for a whie now about things that are above our comprehension. Any metaphysical system will be imperfectly explained because of its nature. So when we define things, we try our best. But for instance you can vaguely concieve what infinity is,but can’t explain nor draw such a thing that you can concieve. If you say, Infinite is everlasting, you define with two words you cannot define, from your point of view. Why then do we use such terms? Is it only poetry? magination? Even if it was, that proves we can concieve things we cannot define. the key is in the word ineffable…
And as for the definition of freedom, how do you know you are right about it? More then look up in a dictionary, and agree (so you have a definition that you accept) or desagree (that means you hav yours), you cannot go further. Well, don’t use that word, since it is subjective.
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MarcoPG
Guest
I must say, we went out of topic somehow, as I understood what I wanted to understand. But this spin-off is so enjoyable.
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