Ethics of Fur

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vz71 said:
What of those that simply hunt for the fur and the flavor?
What of those that simply enjoy the sport?
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A sport is commonly defined as an organized, competitive and skilled physical activity requiring commitment and fair play. There is no fair play in hunting. The playing field is tipped and skewed in the favor of the guy with the artificial power. Now if you give a gun to a deer, teach him how to use it, sound the gong, and declare that the one still standing is the winner with this match of equal advantage, then you have a sport. What you have now, masquerading as a sport is just abuse of power and cruelty. Men who feel small and inadequate should just get a prescription of viagra and quit bullying the animals under the guise of conservation or whatever other excuse they are using.

Here’s something I found on hunting myths. Don’t let any hunter pull the wool over your eyes and convince you that he is a do-gooder. animalfrontline.nl/jagen/myths.php
 
bigfootbob said:
The term ‘Carrying Capacity’ is the number of animals a habitat can support. If there are more animals then the habitat can support, The animals die. Think of hunting as “thinning out the herd”
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That’s the line of bull used by a lot of hunters.

Hunting myths revealed: animalfrontline.nl/jagen/myths.php

"Hunters manipulate animal populations for their own benefit."
 
4elise said:
I think both quotes take too much liberty with grouping all hunters together - and there is truth in both positions - some are hunters to indeed do the most to preserve the environment in which they hunt - others prefer to do so from a truck, tossing beer cans out as they go…

To me it again goes to NEED.
Those who need to hunt for food because their economic circumstances require this method to provide food for themselves and their families, are the ones who NEED to hunt.

Others who as part of a conservation effort to keep a balance in a specific environment are providing a NEED because of the removal of natural preditors in a given environment.

Those who hunt for self gratification, to inflict pain on animals, for vain glory are IMHO actually acting in a way that is contrary to our Catholic Faith - causing NEEDLESS pain
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Hunters that do not respect the environment or enjoy inflicting pain on animals should not be allowed to hunt. But the majority of hunters that I have seen are not like that. Most hunters do not ‘need’ to hunt for food. You seem to understand the role of hunting pretty well, otherwise.👍
 
vz71 said:
OK, one of these quotes actually provided information to back up their statement.
The other provided an ad hominem attack against all hunters, and provided no information at all to back the claim.

Guess which one I am inclined to believe.
Guess which one I believe has no credibility.
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Smart man:D
 
vz71 said:
Humans can speak. Indeed they can communicate with each other on many different levels. Humans can relate to one another, and yes, humans can know the emotions of other humans.
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Gorillas and monkeys have been taught sign language. What was the name of that famous one?? CoCo, or KoKo, or something. Had a pet kitten. Loved the kitten, talked about it all the time (in sign). Check out those studies. Whatever the emotions of animals, or the depth of those emotions, doesn’t change the fact that they suffer and experience pain at our hands. And if we do not have a real good reason to be inflicting pain on them, then we should leave them be.
 
4elise said:
Others who as part of a conservation effort to keep a balance in a specific environment are providing a NEED because of the removal of natural preditors in a given environment.
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Don’t buy into that conservation baloney. Hunters manipulate the environment for themselves.

“There are 1145 species of mammals and birds in North America. 141 are classified as game animals. Of the remaining, almost 90% of the species, NONE are overpopulated and starving. Left to their own, animal populations will stabilize and meet the carrying capacity of their habitat.”

Hunting myths revealed: animalfrontline.nl/jagen/myths.php
 
JoeJetson said:
That’s the line of bull used by a lot of hunters.

Hunting myths revealed: animalfrontline.nl/jagen/myths.php

"Hunters manipulate animal populations for their own benefit."
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Point 1 says Hunting is not a right but a privilege. – I agree
Point 2 gave examples of only shooting bucks. For many years in WI (up until this year) we had to shoot a doe before a buck, lowering the deer population.
Point 3 was Hunters don’t really contribute $. --The figure I gave you before (745.2 million) was JUST for conservation and education. The total spending? -3.7 billion dollars.
Point 4 was that deer aren’t really overpopulated and that there are alternatives to hunting. --In WI, deer are the 3rd most commonly struck object by vehicles. fact. Don’t tell me they aren’t overpopulated. As to alternatives --contraceptives for deer?- where are you going to get all that money to do that? It wouldn’t work besides.
 
JoeJetson said:
Gorillas and monkeys have been taught sign language. What was the name of that famous one?? CoCo, or KoKo, or something. Had a pet kitten. Loved the kitten, talked about it all the time (in sign). Check out those studies. Whatever the emotions of animals, or the depth of those emotions, doesn’t change the fact that they suffer and experience pain at our hands. And if we do not have a real good reason to be inflicting pain on them, then we should leave them be.
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Animals do NOT have souls.
 
bigfootbob said:
Animals do NOT have souls.
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I guess that depends on your religion. In the Catholic religion they DO have souls. They have mortal souls. (All the more reason not to be cruel to them as this is their only shot at life.) Humans have immortal ones. I’m sure someone else can quote the appropriate text as proof of what is taught to us Catholics.
 
JoeJetson said:
I guess that depends on your religion. In the Catholic religion they DO have souls. They have mortal souls. (All the more reason not to be cruel to them as this is their only shot at life.) Humans have immortal ones. I’m sure someone else can quote the appropriate text as proof of what is taught to us Catholics.
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I stand corrected:D
 
JoeJetson said:
I guess that depends on your religion. In the Catholic religion they DO have souls. They have mortal souls. (All the more reason not to be cruel to them as this is their only shot at life.) Humans have immortal ones. I’m sure someone else can quote the appropriate text as proof of what is taught to us Catholics.
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This is from Catholic Concern for Animals: all-creatures.org/ca/ark-186soul.html God breathed the “breath of life” into man, and caused him to become a living soul. (Genesis 2:7) Animals have the same “breath of life” as do humans. (Genesis 7:15, 22)
 
JoeJetson said:
Gorillas and monkeys have been taught sign language. What was the name of that famous one?? CoCo, or KoKo, or something. Had a pet kitten. Loved the kitten, talked about it all the time (in sign). Check out those studies. Whatever the emotions of animals, or the depth of those emotions, doesn’t change the fact that they suffer and experience pain at our hands. And if we do not have a real good reason to be inflicting pain on them, then we should leave them be.
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That would be Koko, a lowland gorilla, able to understand more than 1,000 signs based on American Sign Language. There are other primates, as well, that have been taught to communicate through Sign.
 
bigfootbob said:
Point 4 was that deer aren’t really overpopulated and that there are alternatives to hunting. --In WI, deer are the 3rd most commonly struck object by vehicles.
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Pretty high on that list for Georgia as well. I believe it may actually be the most hit animal in Georgia.

There is a major overpopulation problem.
It is not uncommon to see herds of 20 to 30 deer crossing the roads in the mornings.
 
JoeJetson said:
Whatever the emotions of animals, or the depth of those emotions, doesn’t change the fact that they suffer and experience pain at our hands.
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If the emotions are irrelevent to the argument, why do you keep appealing to them?
 
vz71 said:
Pretty high on that list for Georgia as well. I believe it may actually be the most hit animal in Georgia.

There is a major overpopulation problem.
It is not uncommon to see herds of 20 to 30 deer crossing the roads in the mornings.
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No, I said they are the 3rd most commonly struck OBJECT in WI, not animal:)
 
JoeJetson said:
Whatever the emotions of animals, or the depth of those emotions, doesn’t change the fact that they suffer and experience pain at our hands. And if we do not have a real good reason to be inflicting pain on them, then we should leave them be.
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vz71 said:
If the emotions are irrelevent to the argument, why do you keep appealing to them?
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I don’t think that Joe brought up emotions. I think that is you and severus68 that have been talking about animals possessing emotion, or not. I would say that they do possess basic emotions, and some of those may be even more developed in domesticated animals.

I would agree with Joe, though, that whether they do or don’t (possess emotional capability), that is irrelevant to whether we should inflict pain on them. They are alive, have central nervous systems, capable of feeling pain, capable of suffering…that alone is reason enough for us not to harm them.
 
vz71 said:
So how do you know?

OK, tell me how exactly you know.
What precisely tells you there is a genuine emotion instead of learned behavior or instinct?
If there are truly emotions that we can identify with, this question should not be that difficult.

I never said they didn’t.

That’s nice. Got a reference for this?

Never said it did. Please read my posts more carefully.
If you wish to disagree, disagree with what I have said instead of what you think I said.

Thanks. That is what I have been saying all along.

None whatsoever. However, if there is no suffering involved…
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I have observed crows stay and feed a wounded crow. I see the responses of my dogs to my pain. I have seen one of dogs pine away and die when her companion died.

I will just give one link where reference is made to empathy even in rats based on a 1959 study. There are many more. scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=do-animals-feel-empathy

If you believe they feel pain, then there is suffering involved.
 
Marfran said:
That would be Koko, a lowland gorilla, able to understand more than 1,000 signs based on American Sign Language. There are other primates, as well, that have been taught to communicate through Sign.
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There was also Alex the African Grey parrot whose vocabulary was, I believe, larger than Koko’s. He could differentiate colours, made up new words to express himself.
 
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