Ethics of Fur

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athansor said:
There’s a big difference I think between wanting to avoid causing needless suffering and holding animals on a high pedestal.

It’s like when I tell people I’m vegan, and they say, well, why do you care more about animals than people (or why don’t you care more about unborn babies?)?

Being vegan doesn’t interfere with my ability to work for pro-life causes, in fact, in some ways it reinforces it. For most people, avoiding buying fur, not hunting, not eating meat, not supporting dog fighting, etc., doesn’t prevent them from caring for other human, and doesn’t draw them away from God. I don’t understand why some people seem to be so threatened by or bothered by someone else’s choice to try to minimize animal suffering.
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I must applaud that, well said.
 
Marfran said:
Your link is not a Catholic link. Any questions about animals I would consult Catholic Concern for Animals.

People come before animals? No one said that they didn’t. So your position is that man can do whatever he wants to animals–that he can raise animals for unnecessary fur–that he can subject them to discomfort and suffering, that he can anally electrocute them–for their fur??? So that the missus can drape herself in mink or fox for a night on the town???
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Man was given dominion over animals to use for his needs. The Catholic prohibition on excessive cruelty to animals is given because it damages the person performing the act not because animals have any particular rights. The concern is that person who is cruel to an animal might one day be cruel to a person.

St Thomas Summa Contra Gentiles (Book II, 112)
lest anyone by exercising cruelty towards brutes may become cruel also towards men; or, because an injury to brutes may result in loss to the owner, or on account of some symbolic signification.

So yes as long as the person is fulfilling a need, like food or clothing, and not just fulfilling a sadistic kind of desire he can do as he pleases with animals. I certainly can’t find anything in catholic ethics that suggests animals have any rights.
 
Tosk said:
Man was given dominion over animals to use for his needs. The Catholic prohibition on excessive cruelty to animals is given because it damages the person performing the act not because animals have any particular rights. The concern is that person who is cruel to an animal might one day be cruel to a person.

St Thomas Summa Contra Gentiles (Book II, 112)
lest anyone by exercising cruelty towards brutes may become cruel also towards men; or, because an injury to brutes may result in loss to the owner, or on account of some symbolic signification.

So yes as long as the person is fulfilling a need, like food or clothing, and not just fulfilling a sadistic kind of desire he can do as he pleases with animals. I certainly can’t find anything in catholic ethics that suggests animals have any rights.
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Man has stewardship over God’s creation including animals and has no right to use and abuse…
 
Tosk said:
Man was given dominion over animals to use for his needs. The Catholic prohibition on excessive cruelty to animals is given because it damages the person performing the act not because animals have any particular rights. The concern is that person who is cruel to an animal might one day be cruel to a person.

St Thomas Summa Contra Gentiles (Book II, 112)
lest anyone by exercising cruelty towards brutes may become cruel also towards men; or, because an injury to brutes may result in loss to the owner, or on account of some symbolic signification.

So yes as long as the person is fulfilling a need, like food or clothing, and not just fulfilling a sadistic kind of desire he can do as he pleases with animals. I certainly can’t find anything in catholic ethics that suggests animals have any rights.
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I believe you are splitting hairs on this - you say - ‘yes as long as the person is fulfilling a need’ it is justified - yet you also agree that there is a Catholic prohibition on excessive cruelty to animals -

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm
Respect for the integrity of creation
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2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animals, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present, and future humanity.195 Use of the mineral, vegetable, and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for moral imperatives. Man’s dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by concern for the quality of life of his neighbor, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.196
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2416 Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory.197 Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.
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2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image.198 Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals is a morally acceptable practice if it remains within reasonable limits and contributes to caring for or saving human lives.
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2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly.
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It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.
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If we do not NEED fur (we have other means to keep warm) - then we are causing animals to die needlessly - and contrary to the teaching of the Catholic church.
 
fultonfish said:
gotquestions.org/animal-rights.html

People come before animals.

In verse 28 of Genesis 1: God gives to man authority over all that was created on earth.

Here’s the full verse 28:

God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”
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Genesis 1:28 hasn’t been repealed. It has a lot of insights.

Be fruitful and increase in number. [What does the overpopulation crowd have to say about THAT! Where does that leave the abortion, birth control and sustainable Earth people?]

Fill the earth and SUBDUE it. SUBDUE!!! (As in “beat the earth into submission???” How retro is that!]

And then there’s the business of ruling over the fish and birds and all the other critters. [RULING! But we don’t rule anymore. That’s obsolete in our Marxist perfect utopian state. And we have the right to overturn and radicalize the traditional Biblical values. Now, pass the brie and chablis.]

Humans are at the top of the food chain. [There a couple of cable channels that specialize in showing animals eating each other. Do NOT pet the hyenas. Although around hyenas, a MALE lion may be your best friend. ]

[Just don’t get too cuddley with the polar bears and watch your hands when hanging around alligators. And sting rays may not be your friend; they get irritable when we try to hitch rides.]
 
Fur is great. I gave a good friend a reindeer and lynx fur and she made a coat out of it she absolutely loves it because it is both waterproof and warm. Furthermore, because it is made of natual materials, not petrolium-based platics and nylon, it is clearly a much more environmentally safe and “green” coat.

Fur is Earth-friendly and ecologically sound.
 
rpp said:
Fur is great. I gave a good friend a reindeer and lynx fur and she made a coat out of it she absolutely loves it because it is both waterproof and warm. Furthermore, because it is made of natual materials, not petrolium-based platics and nylon, it is clearly a much more environmentally safe and “green” coat.

Fur is Earth-friendly and ecologically sound.
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Do you wear fur also?
 
rpp said:
Fur is great. I gave a good friend a reindeer and lynx fur and she made a coat out of it she absolutely loves it because it is both waterproof and warm. Furthermore, because it is made of natual materials, not petrolium-based platics and nylon, it is clearly a much more environmentally safe and “green” coat.

Fur is Earth-friendly and ecologically sound.
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And you buy the girls fur coats and they still won’t marry you??? Perpetually single sir–I think you need to try a new approach with women!!! How about showing your gentle side and give them a living animal!!! Show them you can be kind and nurturing. Women like men who like animals!!
 
Marfran said:
And you buy the girls fur coats and they still won’t marry you??? Perpetually single sir–I think you need to try a new approach with women!!! How about showing your gentle side and give them a living animal!!! Show them you can be kind and nurturing. Women like men who like animals!!
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Careful about the many assumptions you make. First, I said friend, not girlfriend. Second, you assumed I am perpetually single. Third, you assume that I only give gifts toi “girlfriends”. Next, you make the utterly false assertion that women who like environmentally sound products like fur believe that men who give them to are no “nurturing”.

Your views are far too anti-Cathooic, anti-Christian and anti-commom sense for really any further attention.

That you immediately resort to insult and personal attacks demonstrates the vacuous nature of your position. Real “Catholic” charity you demonstrate there.
 
4elise said:
But no fur?
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continuing my thought…

While I prefer to avoid leather, I assume that it is cow leather - and the cow was most likely someone’s dinner, as most likely was the deer (unlike the reindeer and lynx)
 
rpp said:
I also have a leather flight jacket. What is the difference? They are all made from animals.
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For me the point goes to the section in the Catechism that stresses NEEDLESS suffering of animals being contrary to our faith.

So… the reindeer and the lynx - one could argue suffered needlessly because it is possible to be kept warm and dry without wearing these. Perhaps the reindeer was eaten, but unlikely the lynx…

For me the case against leather is primarily an environmental issue (per my last post) - this pertains to our role to protect God’s gift of Creation.

For me the case against fur a ‘needless’ suffering of animals issue - that goes to the teaching of the Church regarding our role to be the stewards of the animals in creation.
 
rpp said:
Careful about the many assumptions you make. First, I said friend, not girlfriend. Second, you assumed I am perpetually single. Third, you assume that I only give gifts toi “girlfriends”. Next, you make the utterly false assertion that women who like environmentally sound products like fur believe that men who give them to are no "nurturing.
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Say what, Brother?? Sorry, I guess you didn’t appreciate my comedic reply. A lot of us on these threads appreciate a lighthearted joke now and then, for a break from the serious discussion!! My other brother is a cartoonist, our family does have a sense of humor that often surfaces in the oddest of places! Carry on!!! I think you were discussing leather gloves…
 
Marfran said:
And you buy the girls fur coats and they still won’t marry you??? Perpetually single sir–I think you need to try a new approach with women!!! How about showing your gentle side and give them a living animal!!! Show them you can be kind and nurturing. Women like men who like animals!!
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Maybe I should get rid of my baby harp seal fur coat then if I plan on attracting any women. They might also be put off by the chinchilla comforter and the polar bear rug I have in my house. :hmmm:
 
Tosk said:
Maybe I should get rid of my baby harp seal fur coat then if I plan on attracting any women. They might also be put off by the chinchilla comforter and the polar bear rug I have in my house. :hmmm:
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I bet women would fall all over you if you got one of those little mini pigs as a pet! I guess they’re all the rage in Europe. Take one of those for a walk and women would stop you on the street to ask about the cute little guy!!! What do you feed him??? Does he fetch like a dog??? How often do you have to give him a bath, etc. What a great icebreaker for conversation!!! I meet a lot of people when walking my dog. I imagine that if you were walking a pet pig you’d meet even more fascinated people!!!
 
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