Ethics of Fur

[severus68]

So it is your contention that we must be vegan because that is the way it was in the Garden of Eden?

Please go throgh the posts and read in context. Kindly do not pick and choose what is said.

Yes, that is the way I want to go and have made a start.

 

[vz71]

Yes, that is the way I want to go and have made a start.

So what other things from previous to the fall of man do you believe we should be doing?

 

[severus68]

So what other things from previous to the fall of man do you believe we should be doing?

I think you are confused about the difference between “I” and “You”.** I** said what** I** believe I should do and what I do. Telling others what we believe in is not telling others what to do. We obviously cannot force you to think as we do so.

 

[PeterMuz]

I still don’t see the hypocrisy. The quote says that you probably shouldn’t give money to animal causes at the expense of the poor. So, if you have, say $100 to spend on charitable causes, you probably shouldn’t send it to PETA instead of Food for the Poor.

So, two questions…is paying for pet food the same thing as donating to animal causes? And, can we donate money to any cause that doesn’t directly feed the poor or work to end abortion? In other words, is it improper to donate to an arts foundation? Or give money to buy new little league uniforms? How does one not eating meat make them more hypocritical when it comes to owning pets, if by your interpretation, no Catholic should own a pet?

I see hypocrisy all over the place when talking to animal rights folks. I know many people that feel the same way.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone were to take a pregnant cow and abort the calf? I don’t want to be graphic, but if you cut up and sucked out the body parts of a calf, you would go to jail. The majority of the animal rights people, including PETA, are very liberal and pro-abortion.

Secondly, you cannot use the Bible or the Catechism to say it is morally wrong to eat meat, if you are going to ignore other verses that conflict. The quote out of the Catechism is what it is. All it says it,

2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.

This quote does not specifically say if you should not buy food or toys for your pet. But weren’t all animals created as wild animals anyway? Do you really want to box them up against their nature?

As far as where you should donate your money, you can donate where you want, as long as it is morally acceptable of course. I would say though that as Christians we are supposed to tithe. That money is supposed to be given to the Church. However, being that there are so many groups that are not part with the Church, but that do the Churches work, you tithe can go to a group like that. This would be a group that feeds the hungry, builds homes in third world countries, helps save babies from abortion, etc. I highly doubt you could say that a donation to an arts foundation could be counted as part of your tithe. I am all for you making a donation to an arts foundation, not at the expense of a donation to a pro-life cause or another Church cause. For example, my wife and I donate a certain percentage of our tithe to our Church and the rest we donate to a pro-life group, a group that helps the poor, a group that takes care of the homeless, or something like that. I would never take the money I would give to the poor and instead make a donation to an arts foundation.

As far as owning pets, I don’t have a problem with owning pets. I think animal rights folks would being that you are trapping and animal that was created to be free. No cat, dog, bird, etc was created to be household pets. All animals were wild animals, until human being came around and started keeping them in cages or even in your house or back yard.

 

[PeterMuz]

1 Corinthians 10:14-33

Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper

14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

The Believer’s Freedom

23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, "The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it."

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’ sake— 29the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

 

[athansor]

I see hypocrisy all over the place when talking to animal rights folks. I know many people that feel the same way.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone were to take a pregnant cow and abort the calf? I don’t want to be graphic, but if you cut up and sucked out the body parts of a calf, you would go to jail. The majority of the animal rights people, including PETA, are very liberal and pro-abortion.

.

First off, things like you are talking about happen in slaughterhouses all the time. It’s not illegal at all.
In fact, it was my strong pro-life views that first got me to thinking about veganism to begin with. I think it would be hard to prove that most vegans are pro-abortion, in fact, my experience is that it’s about 50-50.

As for the donations and pet owning, as long as the food I buy for my dog doesn’t cut into what I give the Church and other worthy causes, I don’t see how I personally are being hypocritical.

 

[athansor]

This quote does not specifically say if you should not buy food or toys for your pet. But weren’t all animals created as wild animals anyway? Do you really want to box them up against their nature?

As far as owning pets, I don’t have a problem with owning pets. I think animal rights folks would being that you are trapping and animal that was created to be free. No cat, dog, bird, etc was created to be household pets. All animals were wild animals, until human being came around and started keeping them in cages or even in your house or back yard.

Actually, dogs and cats really weren’t created as wild animals at all, they were selectively bred from other animals to be household pets.

 

[athansor]

1 Corinthians 10:14-33

Idol Feasts and the Lord’s Supper

14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

The Believer’s Freedom

23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
25Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’ sake— 29the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? 30If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

31So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

So, is your position that the Bible requires us to eat meat? Are we sinning if we are offered meat and don’t eat it?

 

[vz71]

So what other things from previous to the fall of man do you believe we should be doing?

I think you are confused about the difference between “I” and “You”.** I** said what** I** believe I should do and what I do. Telling others what we believe in is not telling others what to do. We obviously cannot force you to think as we do so.

Well, it looks to me like you are afraid to answer the question.

But on the off chance you are misunderstanding the question, I will rephrase.

What else previous to the fall of man do you believe we should be doing to prevent us from running contrary to the church?

 

[wabrams]

Have never been inclined to. Have had it described to me in graphic detail with much glee on the details by hunters. This while I was trying to make it clear that I was against it and was not interested. These hunters were rich and not very ethical in other ways. I cannot judge or condemn someone hunting purely for food for his/her family for survival.

So based on your negative experience w. one or two people, you decide to slander all of us that hunt?

 

[athansor]

Well, it looks to me like you are afraid to answer the question.

But on the off chance you are misunderstanding the question, I will rephrase.

What else previous to the fall of man do you believe we should be doing to prevent us from running contrary to the church?

The Church, through the Catechism, says not to cause unnecessary animal suffering. The Bible gives God’s perfect creation as people living in a paradisaical garden eating a vegan diet.

So, to avoid running contrary to the Church, you shouldn’t cause unnecessary animal suffering. If you believe that the meat you buy at the grocery story, or obtain from hunting is necessary, and you try to obtain it in a way that minimizes suffering, then you are OK with the Church.

I’m guessing you’re asking this because you want people to address the fact that Adam and Eve ran around without clothes.

So, if a vegetarian or vegan ate that way because they wanted to live a pre-fall existence, should they also run around naked? Well, I would say that depends. We wear clothes for four reasons, as I see it…for warmth, for protection from the sun, to help preserve modesty and not lead others into temptation, and for vanity.

Eden was a pretty warm place, so that wouldn’t be an issue. I don’t think God wants me to freeze to death, so I don’t think one should quit wearing clothes for that reason.
Eden probably had a lot of trees, and there wasn’t as much damage to the ozone layer back then, so it was probably not a place where skin cancer was an issue.
The modesty and temptation thing, well, for some people, nudity might be a distraction and might lead one to sin. However, it was told to me once many years ago by someone who had a job where he saw lots of nudity that it in fact had the opposite effect.
Then there’s vanity. I wear clothes to hide some imperfections. For instance, I rarely wear shorts because of a scarred up knee. I think I probably look better dressed than in a bikini, for instance. That’s my vanity speaking.

So, should people run around naked? Probably not, but I don’t think it would be morally wrong in some circumstances.

Ok…silliness aside.

I’m a vegan first and foremost because I can be…I don’t need meat or any other animal products. I am a vegan because I am knowledgeable about what happens in factory farms and slaughterhouses, and I’m glad that my money doesn’t support those types of organizations. I’m vegan because I think it’s a healthy diet, and I’ve read research that indicates that it might be healthier than the standard American diet. I’m vegan because I think that it’s a more efficient use of resources, it’s cheaper for me, and in general, the corn that is used to feed animals in CAFO’s could feed a lot more people than are fed by the beef. There are other reasons as well, but these are the main points.

I’m not a vegan because of the Creation story in Genesis, altough I think it is interesting that the food choices for Adam and Eve are spelled out. I’m not a vegan because I think it’s sinful to eat meat. I’m not a vegan because I think that animals are equal to humans. I don’t support cows being given the right to vote, and I’m troubled by the anti-meat campaigns that compare the treatment of chickens (bad though it is) to the Holocaust. Finally I’m not vegan because I think I’m better than meat eaters.

 

[bigfootbob]

Finally I’m not vegan because I think I’m better than meat eaters.

:dts:

 

[athansor]

:dts:

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear, as you took that exactly the opposite way that I meant it.
I don’t think I’m better than meat eaters, heck I married a meat eater.

Too late to edit that post to hopefully make it clearer.

Sometimes I think the problem on threads like this is that there are perceptions that people are disagreeing with instead of actual people.
I just wanted to make the point that I’m vegan for a number of reasons as I listed, and do not think I’m better than anyone else, just as I don’t think it’s a sin for someone else to eat meat.

 

[4elise]

I’m a vegan first and foremost because I can be…I don’t need meat or any other animal products. I am a vegan because I am knowledgeable about what happens in factory farms and slaughterhouses, and I’m glad that my money doesn’t support those types of organizations. I’m vegan because I think it’s a healthy diet, and I’ve read research that indicates that it might be healthier than the standard American diet. I’m vegan because I think that it’s a more efficient use of resources, it’s cheaper for me, and in general, the corn that is used to feed animals in CAFO’s could feed a lot more people than are fed by the beef. There are other reasons as well, but these are the main points.

I’m not a vegan because of the Creation story in Genesis, altough I think it is interesting that the food choices for Adam and Eve are spelled out. I’m not a vegan because I think it’s sinful to eat meat. I’m not a vegan because I think that animals are equal to humans. I don’t support cows being given the right to vote, and I’m troubled by the anti-meat campaigns that compare the treatment of chickens (bad though it is) to the Holocaust. Finally I’m not vegan because I think I’m better than meat eaters.

wow… summed up really well!
I would have to add issues about environmental damage caused by CAFO’s as being a very strong issue for me…

 

[bigfootbob]

Maybe I didn’t make myself clear, as you took that exactly the opposite way that I meant it.
I don’t think I’m better than meat eaters, heck I married a meat eater.

Too late to edit that post to hopefully make it clearer.

Sometimes I think the problem on threads like this is that there are perceptions that people are disagreeing with instead of actual people.
I just wanted to make the point that I’m vegan for a number of reasons as I listed, and do not think I’m better than anyone else, just as I don’t think it’s a sin for someone else to eat meat.

I did a double take there. I though there might have been a mistake

 

[severus68]

I see hypocrisy all over the place when talking to animal rights folks. I know many people that feel the same way.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone were to take a pregnant cow and abort the calf? I don’t want to be graphic, but if you cut up and sucked out the body parts of a calf, you would go to jail. The majority of the animal rights people, including PETA, are very liberal and pro-abortion.

Secondly, you cannot use the Bible or the Catechism to say it is morally wrong to eat meat, if you are going to ignore other verses that conflict. The quote out of the Catechism is what it is. All it says it,
This quote does not specifically say if you should not buy food or toys for your pet. But weren’t all animals created as wild animals anyway? Do you really want to box them up against their nature?

As far as where you should donate your money, you can donate where you want, as long as it is morally acceptable of course. I would say though that as Christians we are supposed to tithe. That money is supposed to be given to the Church. However, being that there are so many groups that are not part with the Church, but that do the Churches work, you tithe can go to a group like that. This would be a group that feeds the hungry, builds homes in third world countries, helps save babies from abortion, etc. I highly doubt you could say that a donation to an arts foundation could be counted as part of your tithe. I am all for you making a donation to an arts foundation, not at the expense of a donation to a pro-life cause or another Church cause. For example, my wife and I donate a certain percentage of our tithe to our Church and the rest we donate to a pro-life group, a group that helps the poor, a group that takes care of the homeless, or something like that. I would never take the money I would give to the poor and instead make a donation to an arts foundation.

As far as owning pets, I don’t have a problem with owning pets. I think animal rights folks would being that you are trapping and animal that was created to be free. No cat, dog, bird, etc was created to be household pets. All animals were wild animals, until human being came around and started keeping them in cages or even in your house or back yard.

I think you are confusing issues and a little confused about the law. This thread is about the ethics of fur. Is it necessary today for us to use fur when we know cruelty and suffering are involved?

Animals are still considered property so causing your own cow to abort is not going to get you in jail.

Please do not presume that all animal rights people are pro abortion.

While the Church does not say it is a sin to eat meat, neither does the Church say it is a sin not to eat meat.

This is not a thread aboutoning pets. Many animal rights supporters, like me, keeppets.

Hypocrisy is found everywhere, even among those who believe charity to animals, is wrong.

 

[severus68]

Well, it looks to me like you are afraid to answer the question.

But on the off chance you are misunderstanding the question, I will rephrase.

What else previous to the fall of man do you believe we should be doing to prevent us from running contrary to the church?

You obviously do not understand. I am not telling you what to do or not to do.

 

[severus68]

So based on your negative experience w. one or two people, you decide to slander all of us that hunt?

An absolute defence to slander is the truth. This thread i about hnting for sport,just fr the thrill of the kill. I am not slandering anyone who huts out of neccesity.

 

[Feanor2]

Really, out of all of us, St. Thomas would know better what powers are attributes of what powers of the soul.

He is, after all, a Doctor of the Church, pretty much the highest ‘rank’ of theologian there can be.

And unless there is now some scientific evidence that animals have Rational souls.

Well Thomas is one Doctor of the Church. Some of his notions are medieval in character and may not apply to our current understanding of the world. Just because he is a Doctor does not make everything he said %100 correct.

BTW I do agree that animal certainly do not experience emotions as man does- primarily because they do not have the brain structures that elicit them.

I do believe that they experience fear and anger as these come from the Limbic system or the reptilian brain. The fact that they do not know they are an “it” would make any kind of human emotion doubtful.

Then again I don’t believe that very severely disabled people experience typical emotions.

THe biggest fallacy that some animal obsessed folks tout is that animals love- this sounds great but it really isn’t so.

But emotions stand outside of the issue of animal rights. Those rights do not flow from their similarity to man but by their nature of being part of creation.

 

[vz71]

The Church, through the Catechism, says not to cause unnecessary animal suffering. The Bible gives God’s perfect creation as people living in a paradisaical garden eating a vegan diet.

Well, it seems the only dietary description we are given from the creation story is the initial fall itself.
While permission is provided for eating of a number of plants, it is given in the context of restricting the one forbidden fruit…not in context of providing a menu.
Attempting to read into it diet is a mistake. It just is not there.

So, to avoid running contrary to the Church, you shouldn’t cause unnecessary animal suffering. If you believe that the meat you buy at the grocery story, or obtain from hunting is necessary, and you try to obtain it in a way that minimizes suffering, then you are OK with the Church.

I see this as a moral relativism.
You have based the entirety of the right or wrong of an action upon “if you believe”

I’m guessing you’re asking this because you want people to address the fact that Adam and Eve ran around without clothes.

Well now that you mention it, I am curious about that as well…

So, if a vegetarian or vegan ate that way because they wanted to live a pre-fall existence, should they also run around naked? Well, I would say that depends. We wear clothes for four reasons, as I see it…for warmth, for protection from the sun, to help preserve modesty and not lead others into temptation, and for vanity.
Eden was a pretty warm place, so that wouldn’t be an issue.

How do we know this?
I certainly do not remember reading about any type of weather conditions within the creation story.

Eden probably had a lot of trees, and there wasn’t as much damage to the ozone layer back then, so it was probably not a place where skin cancer was an issue.

Again, you can’t know.
Logic based on conjecture is not logic at all.

The modesty and temptation thing, well, for some people, nudity might be a distraction and might lead one to sin. However, it was told to me once many years ago by someone who had a job where he saw lots of nudity that it in fact had the opposite effect.

It may, it may not. I wager it has about as much effect as fanatical vegans purporting theirs as the lifestyle God intends and scandalizing everyone else.

Ok…silliness aside.

I’m a vegan first and foremost because I can be…I don’t need meat or any other animal products. I am a vegan because I am knowledgeable about what happens in factory farms and slaughterhouses, and I’m glad that my money doesn’t support those types of organizations. I’m vegan because I think it’s a healthy diet, and I’ve read research that indicates that it might be healthier than the standard American diet. I’m vegan because I think that it’s a more efficient use of resources, it’s cheaper for me, and in general, the corn that is used to feed animals in CAFO’s could feed a lot more people than are fed by the beef. There are other reasons as well, but these are the main points.

I’ll not argue with these.

I’m not a vegan because of the Creation story in Genesis, altough I think it is interesting that the food choices for Adam and Eve are spelled out.

OK, but at least one person here is making claim to exactly that.

I’m not a vegan because I think it’s sinful to eat meat. I’m not a vegan because I think that animals are equal to humans. I don’t support cows being given the right to vote, and I’m troubled by the anti-meat campaigns that compare the treatment of chickens (bad though it is) to the Holocaust. Finally I’m not vegan because I think I’m better than meat eaters.

Perhaps you should rephrase that last one.
I can see where people will take offense to it.