Ethics of Fur

[mmsiciliana]

I have to say that I also think layering works fine. I live in a cold climate as well and have not needed to use fur.

A 20 below zero (Farenheit) climate?

 

[mmsiciliana]

The post you are responding to here is not my post, not sure why it appears as mine. Never had or tried on a fur coat.

Sorry, all I did was click on the “quote” button. Afterwards, the post it referred me to had you as the author and my words were quoted, but you had nothing to say…

 

[mmsiciliana]

Correct me If im wrong but didnt the first humans decide to clothe themselves out of shame after eating the forbidden fruit?
Im sure even if God allowed Adam and Eve to wear leather, He would not have done so for the sake of it. There may not been other alternatives. The circumstances are not the same today. Argue all you want, but leather has an important difference from fur. It is taken from animals raised and killed for food. It is a byproduct.

Yes, the first humans clothed themselves out of shame–in fig leaves (Genesis 3: 7). When God drove them out of the garden, he clothed them in leather (Genesis 3: 21). And yes, there were alternatives. They had fig leaves. And what animal did God take the leather from? The Bible states that human beings were only given the right to eat seed bearing fruit and seed bearing plants for food (Genesis 1:29) UNTIL after the flood of Noah, when God gave human beings meat to eat (Genesis 9: 3). So, God KILLED an animal which no one ate and he made leather garments out of its skin for Adam and Eve! As I said before, if it’s good enough for God, it’s good enough for me.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Yes, we are talking about God. God also allowed violence after the Fall but it was not God’s creation. Adam and Eve felt shame including shame about their nakedness. The animals had to suffer the consequences of Man’s fall. We can reduce acts of violence against animals too if we want. Nothing bad, only good to do that.

Yes, we are talking about God, and yes, God clothed the first human beings in leather, according to the Bible (Genesis 3:21)

 

[mmsiciliana]

I had the same thought!!! He sneaks in everywhere doesn’t he!!! A note to the mink rancher: there are many people in this thread that come from countries other than the United States.

A note to the Manhattanite: Many people in other countries seem to like Mr. Obama better than some of the people in this country, and they are very aware of who he is.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Yes, let’s not forget how God originally created the world. Man screwed things up for himself, for the animals, for the planet… And now we must struggle through the ugliness and find the path back to God.

AMEN! The very same God who chose to clothe those humans in leather. (Genesis 3: 21)

 

[mmsiciliana]

Because “Mother Nature” is ***cruel ***does not mean that we should also be cruel. We are made in the “image of God.” We alone (not “Mother Nature” or the animals) are capable of compassion and mercy. We are to be caretakers of the Earth and the animals.

AMEN, sister! Preach it! We are made in the image and likeness of God! The SAME God who clothed the first human beings in leather! (Genesis 3: 21)

 

[Ridgerunner]

You have been shown that the animals don’t suffer and they are killed humanely,

Whoa! You actually worked on a fur farm? I looked for your description of it, and couldn’t find it. Would you mind either describing it for us or at least referring to the post number where you described it before?

I’m not being a smart aleck. I really want to know. I personally raise cattle, and don’t think it’s a bit cruel, at least in a cow-calf operation, though some no doubt think it is. I have been in chicken houses and don’t think the ones I have seen are cruel either, though some think it is. I have even been in hog confinement facilities and don’t think the ones I have seen are cruel, though some think it is. I have never seen an alligator farm, nor have I ever seen a fur farm. I suspect the latter are probably similar to a dog kennel, but I don’t know that to be a fact.

What do you do with the bodies after they’re skinned? I guessed in an early post that fur farmers probably ground them up and fed them to the fur animals; sort of like the offal in a trout farm is fed to the trout. But that was just a guess.

 

[Marfran]

So, you’re saying I’m a liar? I’m the person who has lived and worked on a fur farm. I’m the person who has told you over and over again that the animals don’t suffer while they’re alive and they are not killed by electrocution but are killed humanely. We should believe you? Why? What credibility do you have in this discussion?

I’ll bet you could afford several fur coats. You live in Manhattan, a place that has one of the highest costs of living anywhere. So why don’t you move from Manhattan to a cheaper place to live so that you can responsibly express the gift of income obtained from honest work? By the way, do you work for one of those failed banks that the government has shored up?

I have been on a fur farm too. And just saying something doesn’t make the argument. You need to supply supportive evidence. The “fur industry” spins a lot of propaganda to protect their interests.

Fur animals were killed by anal electrocution in New York until 2007 (or was it 2008). This practice was outlawed in New York in that year.

I have an entire career in working with animals in many different capacities.

I used Manhattan in an example and you assumed that I lived there. Then you assumed that I was poor. Then you assumed that I worked in the financial district. Do you know what assuming makes you???

Why don’t you just debate/discuss the points of the topic?

 

[athansor]

A 20 below zero (Farenheit) climate?

I live in a place where that is common for much of the winter, and it can get quite a bit colder. I’ve never needed fur (or leather or wool) for that matter. We’ve already been below zero in the first part of October.

 

[severus68]

A note to the Manhattanite: Many people in other countries seem to like Mr. Obama better than some of the people in this country, and they are very aware of who he is.

Please do not bring politics into this thread.

 

[mmsiciliana]

Whoa! You actually worked on a fur farm? I looked for your description of it, and couldn’t find it. Would you mind either describing it for us or at least referring to the post number where you described it before?

I’m not being a smart aleck. I really want to know. I personally raise cattle, and don’t think it’s a bit cruel, at least in a cow-calf operation, though some no doubt think it is. I have been in chicken houses and don’t think the ones I have seen are cruel either, though some think it is. I have even been in hog confinement facilities and don’t think the ones I have seen are cruel, though some think it is. I have never seen an alligator farm, nor have I ever seen a fur farm. I suspect the latter are probably similar to a dog kennel, but I don’t know that to be a fact.

What do you do with the bodies after they’re skinned? I guessed in an early post that fur farmers probably ground them up and fed them to the fur animals; sort of like the offal in a trout farm is fed to the trout. But that was just a guess.

Hi Ridgerunner,
My parents had a fur farm, so I grew up on one. I haven’t worked on one in several years, though, so when Marfran refers to me as a “Factory Fur Farmer,” that’s just another one of her “fibs.” Mink are solitary animals. They only get together in the wild to breed. Then the mother raises her litter until she weans them, at which time they all disperse because it takes approximately an acre of land to sustain one mink in the wild. On a fur farm, the animals are kept in cages because you cannot just put them into a pen–they will attack each other. So, one of the main reasons to put them in a cage is to protect them from one another.
I mentioned on an earlier post that I have seen the minks stretched out on their backs, sleeping and “sunning” themselves, so to speak. They have boxes with bedding which we clean out if it becomes soiled. They are fed on a regular basis with a diet that consists of mostly meat–which is inedible for humans, so the meat is utilized rather than being thrown out. They also eat eggs, which are also inedible for humans because the shells have been broken, etc. We’ve also fed them inedible cheese, duck, cow liver, chicken, tripe, cow kidneys, etc. The meats are all ground up then mixed together with a dry cereal and water. Since the feed is mostly meat, it will spoil, so any leftovers have to be removed from the cage before you put fresh food down. You certainly wouldn’t want to put fresh food on top of moldy, spoiled food. They are a lot like cats in that they will use the same spot in their cage to eliminate, but that falls through to the ground below, which is also removed at regular intervals. They get water from watering cups, which also have to be cleaned out on a regular basis. In the winter time, when the water lines are frozen, we have to go out with hoses and water them by hand. They also receive vaccinations. Each one has to be picked up, vaccinated, and replaced.
Since mink are solitary animals, the female doesn’t go into heat until she’s been bred! About 6 weeks later, she will give birth to an average of four young, called “kits,” although there have been litters as large as 12 and as small as 1. They are watched carefully after they give birth because some of the mothers don’t take care of their young. They may eat their own young, or they may discard them outside of the next box. We pick up the discarded kits and if we can resuscitate them, by warming them in our hands, or blowing on them, we “place” them with an adoptive mother–a mother who has a small litter and is taking care of her kits properly.
In the wild, if a mink gets into a chicken house, it will kill every animal it can catch until it is driven off or all of the animals are dead. This is an instinct mink have because in the wild, prey can be few and far between. As I said above, mink will also attack each other outside of breeding season. Sometimes, even littermates will attack the “runt” and you may find a dead, partially eaten kit, or you may find a live kit who is missing a limb, ear, or tail. When they get older, they are all put into separate cages with their own nest boxes, food areas and water dishes. The cages are set up in such a way that they cannot reach one another because, again, they will fight, and one could injure another by pulling the other’s legs or feet into the cage.
When the time comes, they are euthanized by being gassed. They are skinned, and no, they’re not skinned alive, because a live mink would bleed all over and why would we want to deal with that? The carcasses are utilized by rendering companies. No other animal will eat a mink, because mink are related to skunks and have the same sort of scent glands (just not as large). Mink oil, from carcasses, is used to waterproof shoes. Sometimes, it’s also used in cosmetics or lotions. Otherwise, the carcasses can be used for fertilization.
So, when Marfran says mink are raised on “Factory Fur Farms” and suffer until the day they die by electrocution, she’s telling some more of her “fibs.”

 

[mmsiciliana]

I have been on a fur farm too.

When? Where? What type of fur farm?

 

[JaneGrey]

Yes, the first humans clothed themselves out of shame–in fig leaves (Genesis 3: 7). When God drove them out of the garden, he clothed them in leather (Genesis 3: 21). And yes, there were alternatives. They had fig leaves. And what animal did God take the leather from? The Bible states that human beings were only given the right to eat seed bearing fruit and seed bearing plants for food (Genesis 1:29) UNTIL after the flood of Noah, when God gave human beings meat to eat (Genesis 9: 3). So, God KILLED an animal which no one ate and he made leather garments out of its skin for Adam and Eve! As I said before, if it’s good enough for God, it’s good enough for me.

I understand what you are trying to say, but this argument does not hold up for me. I cannot see how fig leaves would have been a practical alternative. The way I see it again, today we undoubtedly have a wider range of alternatives. I cant speak for God, but I honestly feel that He would prefer for me to choose the synthetic alternative if I have the choice. Im sure you feel extremely differently about fur having been raised on a fur farm, but similarly I feel the opposite way, having been raised to believe different.

 

[JaneGrey]

A 20 below zero (Farenheit) climate?

Yes and I have had the experience of being in a 40 below as well without wearing real fur. I cant remember but I dont think I was wearing faux fur even at the time. Anyway, where I am it on average gets to about minus 15 fahrenheit. This is not your minus 20 I know but after a certain point cold is cold! I have to ask, cant you just avoid being exposed to such extreme conditions? If one limits the time they spend in these conditions to when absolute necessary, one could manage. I cant speak for all farmers and outdoor working people, but I know some from Finland for example who have somehow managed to avoid the use of fur. I realise this is not common though, and I will try to find out if I can how they do this.

 

[JaneGrey]

Again, I simply do not think ‘‘wanting something soft’’ is a justifiable excuse for wearing real fur. That is a want, not a need. I have never doubted that plenty of people want for some reason to don the skins other animals were born with. Now the need part…

 

[Marfran]

Again, I simply do not think ‘‘wanting something soft’’ is a justifiable excuse for wearing real fur. That is a want, not a need. I have never doubted that plenty of people want for some reason to don the skins other animals were born with. Now the need part…

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Marfran]

so when Marfran refers to me as a “Factory Fur Farmer,” that’s just another one of her “fibs.”

So, when Marfran says mink are raised on “Factory Fur Farms” and suffer until the day they die by electrocution, she’s telling some more of her “fibs.”

I have never referred to YOU as a “Factory Fur Farmer.” I have never referred to YOU as anything. Your commentaries are unnecessarily personal, you assume personal things about people and post such. This is against CAF rules. Please stick to the topic and debate the topic.

 

[vz71]

Again, I simply do not think ‘‘wanting something soft’’ is a justifiable excuse for wearing real fur. That is a want, not a need. I have never doubted that plenty of people want for some reason to don the skins other animals were born with. Now the need part…

Well, that would explain why you aren’t out in the woods shooting anything.

However, if you wish to address the issues brought forth in this thread, you will need to go much further then that.

The fur industry serves many needs.

 

[Ridgerunner]

When I was a kid, people used to trap up and down the creek on our farm. Trapping is not too kind a thing to do, even if the trapper returns to the trap frequently. Seems to me fur farming is a lot more humane, based on the above description by mmsiciliana.

I sure don’t live in a place where it gets to 40 below, and I’m not sure I have ever seen 20 below either. Don’t think I have. In maybe half our winters it gets around 10 above for a day or two, and that’s as much cold as I ever want to see.

But I will say for sure that a sheepskin coat is the most effective coat there is, bar none.

I’m not entirely sure why women like fur coats. But then, I’m not sure why they like earrings, either. Women also wear makeup, whereas men don’t. I have heard women say that when they enter a room full of people, every woman sizes up every other woman in the whole room. Men don’t do that, and I don’t really understand it.

But knowing that women like fur coats, I’m not going to begrudge them that for the sake of a concern for the animals that might not be warranted from any perspective that is mandatory upon Catholics. The sheep has to die for people to have sheepskin coats. The steer has to die for people to have beef. A kazillion bugs and rodents die so we can eat vegetables and grains and not have stores and houses full of cockroaches and rats. Our bodies kill millions of bacteria and viruses daily as a matter of routine.

As long as we do not deliberately inflict needless cruelty on animals, I don’t see anything wrong with utilizing them, particularly since the “state of nature” is far more cruel than anything I, at least, have ever seen humans do to animals.