Ethics of Fur

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4elise:
If you can tell me which sources you would not discount I would be happy to provide links about the issues of CAFO’s - not activist films but reports that have influenced my opinion.
** I do not discount the testimony of my own eyes. I have been in poultry houses and big commercial hog facilities. I’m not saying some I have never seen are not awful. But not one I have ever been in is the way anti-CAFO people describe them. On CAF I have seen films made by PETA and by HSUS, and both were, by my personal observation, wildly inaccurate depictions of what I have seen with my own eyes. One segment was so preposterous, I actually laughed. I trust my own eyes.**

I do believe it is possible to continue to have a respectful discussion on this even if we disagree - I do not feel you are trying to impose your opinion on me - and hope you do not feel that I am trying to impose mine on you. ** Good. I do not require that you wear fur or call you a nutcase for being opposed to it, and you don’t tell me it’s cruel or immoral for women to wear fur. Agreed? **

And just for clarification the comment about my daughter’s engagement ring was a direct response regarding imposing opinion on someone - what I was trying to say (and obviously missed the point since that isn’t what you understood) was that I didn’t tell her this is what she had to have, or that she couldn’t have a diamond - but she grew up in our home where such discussions have taken place, she knows these missionaries too - so this was just referencing the imposition of opinion ** I never did say you were imposing your opinion on your daughter or her fiance. I only said that I did not care whether her fiance bought her a manmade diamond or a real one, and that it was none of my business what they did in that regard. **
 
4elise said:
There are probably only a few posts left before it gets closed around 1000 -
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When a thread gets to 1000, it’s closed? Whew! You mean I don’t have to keep refuting these arguments forever? (That’s a purgatory right there.) Thank goodness I can stop beating my head against a wall…:banghead:
 
mmsiciliana said:
When a thread gets to 1000, it’s closed? Whew! You mean I don’t have to keep refuting these arguments forever? (That’s a purgatory right there.) Thank goodness I can stop beating my head against a wall…:banghead:
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I want to see how this works…
 
severus68 said:
That wasn’t fair.🙂 Need to get the last word in. We do not need fur, please find alternatives. Thank you.
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No, really, this isn’t fair. At least I was being humourous and not trying to get in one last sound bite…🤷
 
Ridgerunner said:
If you can tell me which sources you would not discount I would be happy to provide links about the issues of CAFO’s - not activist films but reports that have influenced my opinion.
** I do not discount the testimony of my own eyes. I have been in poultry houses and big commercial hog facilities. I’m not saying some I have never seen are not awful**. But not one I have ever been in is the way anti-CAFO people describe them. On CAF I have seen films made by PETA and by HSUS, and both were, by my personal observation, wildly inaccurate depictions of what I have seen with my own eyes. One segment was so preposterous, I actually laughed. I trust my own eyes.
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Well - since making personal visitations is out of the question here at CAF - I guess you will have to continue to trust what you’ve seen personally - and I will opt for what I’m familiar with along the 5 in CA - with additional information from others who have worked in this dairy industry - the info I have from poultry CAFO does come from reading and thei impact on communities…
Ridgerunner said:
I do believe it is possible to continue to have a respectful discussion on this even if we disagree - I do not feel you are trying to impose your opinion on me - and hope you do not feel that I am trying to impose mine on you. ** Good. I do not require that you wear fur or call you a nutcase for being opposed to it, and you don’t tell me it’s cruel or immoral for women to wear fur. Agreed? **
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I have only raised my opinion on fur and why I would not own or wear one - as for another women’s choice I can’t speak to what anyone thinks or believes - I think if one were to believe as I do and then go against that understanding it would indeed be immoral. .
 
It doesn’t automatically close at 1000 - generally in that range - though we had one go quite a bit beyond that on Climate Change, and I believe also one on the Death Penalty…

Maybe people will get as excited about Henri Nouwen!
 
mmsiciliana said:
4elise, when I see the inaccuracies presented about the fur trade, I’m obviously going to mistrust other statements that are made by the same people. I also don’t believe in “global warming” due to the fact that Mars’ temperature is increasing, and I don’t think it is because of Earth’s pollution…
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Other people would argue differently about the global warming issue. Since we both live in cold climates, the best person to ask about global warming would be someone most affected by it, that is someone from a hot country. Way off topic, my apologies.

You have said many times that what you ve seen on your fur farm growing up was not cruel etc. No one has accused you personally anyway. However like others horrified at the fur trade it is because we have seen evidence that there do exist cruel farms. Are you telling me that I cant trust my own eyes when I see something in a video? You cannot say it is inaccurate, when I saw it myself. Even if it happened only a few times and the vids were heavily edited, it doesnt change from the fact that sickening stuff do happen. It appears from many of your posts that you are offended by people getting offended by these things which upset them. I wish none of these things ever happened. I wish I had no issues with my fellow human beings but who does nt? We did not just wake up one day and decide we were going to go after a certain group of people for the sake of it. So please stop singling us out as trying to get at you, this problem is not about you. No one is acting morally superior. If what you say is true about your personal knowledge of fur farms then good for you.
 
fultonfish said:
Fur-based ethics and/or morality is a non-issue.

Enjoy the fur and the diamonds.
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It is irresponsible to encourage people to indulge beyond their needs. It is difficult to know whether or not a diamond is a blood diamond, for example.
 
JaneGrey said:
It is irresponsible to encourage people to indulge beyond their needs.
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Quite right.
However it is also irresponsible to give people a false morality.

There is nothing wrong with wearing fur. The diamonds I will leave to another thread, I consider it off-topic.
 
4elise said:
Well - since making personal visitations is out of the question here at CAF - I guess you will have to continue to trust what you’ve seen personally - and I will opt for what I’m familiar with along the 5 in CA - with additional information from others who have worked in this dairy industry - the info I have from poultry CAFO does come from reading and thei impact on communities…

QUOTE]

I take it you have never been in a big poultry integrator facility. You ought to. Unless you pick some no-account outfit that is probably losing money, I think you might be surprised. It helps to understand, also, what they’re doing and what quality standards are that the market demands. Profit margins are not very big, standards are high, and you can’t abuse the poultry and make any money.

I have never seen a dairy CAFO and am unlikely to see one because there are none around here. Dairy operations around here are small, individually operated things. There is one exception, a series of very large dairies operated by New Zealander companies here. But they don’t confine the animals. In fact, the cattle are totally grass-fed. But they sell their milk to specialty outfits like Ben & Jerry’s because its rich in butterfat. So, if you say dairy CAFOs are awful, I have no reason to say otherwise.

I have only been in two hog CAFOs. They’re clean and, to my mind, humane. But all hog operations smell awful. Old Macdonal’s Farm smelled awful if he raised hogs too. Been there. Around this area, though, most hogs are also raised by owner-operators. There used to be huge CAFOs, and there are still some in a neighboring state. But they don’t seem to be very profitable, and some of the big processing companies got rid of them and buy from farmers now. But the big companies do require controlled genetics, proper feeding and health regimens of the farmers.

With beef, I have never even heard of a cattle CAFO, and I live in cattle country. I do understand some veal calves are raised in confinement, but that seems to be rare…nonexistent here. You would probably object to big finishing lots because of the odor. But those seem to be declining at least in the number of feeder days, probably because of the cost of grain and the fact that the processors and feed lots are “upstreaming” a lot of the growout costs back to ranchers. That means more time on grass. There are reasons for that. I don’t think anyone could possibly make any money with a long-term beef confinement facility.
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mmsiciliana said:
And the point I have made over and over, but I might as well be beating my head against a brick wall :banghead: is that **I have **seen how these animals actually live, how they are killed, and how their pelts are removed from their dead bodies. I understand the entire process. And I don’t have a problem with it. I’ve pointed out that I have concern for animals and it is inhumane to cause an animal to suffer uselessly.
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And you have worked in this area and do have the experience, but the person who is considering purchasing the fur coat should also have the experience, or at least have the opportunity to access the knowledge and understanding of the process, complete with realistic and candid photos. If there is nothing objectionable or abhorrent, then there should be no problem. The people who fuel the industry by making the purchases should ultimately be the ones to decide if this industry is indeed humane, and if these products are worth animals living and dying for.
 
mmsiciliana said:
Are cancer and other diseases epidemic in the human and animal populations because they are eating “all the hormones, anti-biotics [sic], chemicals and pesticides found in human ‘factory farmed’ foods”

OR

Are cancer and other disease epidemic in the human and animal populations because humans and animals now live longer because they are better fed?
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I would suggest reading The China Study. Cancer and other diseases are epidemic in the human and domestic animal populations because of reason #1, and NOT reason #2 at all. Ironically, the (average, industrialized) human population has access to MORE food, but they are NOT better fed. Many foods that humans eat are not natural to the human diet and this also plays a significant part in CANCER, etc.
 
Marfran said:
I would suggest reading The China Study. Cancer and other diseases are epidemic in the human and domestic animal populations because of reason #1, and NOT reason #2 at all. Ironically, the (average, industrialized) human population has access to MORE food, but they are NOT better fed. Many foods that humans eat are not natural to the human diet and this also plays a significant part in CANCER, etc.
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That’s true. There are people who have so much and are starving, nutrition wise.
 
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