Ethnic Masses?

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I find the ethnic masses to be divisive for the exact same reasons as many others posting on the thread: creation of separate communities within the same parish, etc. And I also have to agree that one of the best ways to overcome this division seems to be the use of Latin. The vernacular does make people feel more comfortable (I should know, having just spent 10 months studying in Austria - Mass in Edinburgh during semester break was a remarkable homecoming), but in one fell swoop it splinters the unity of worship in the universal Church. Classmates of mine stopped going to Mass regularly because they couldn’t go to an English Mass, even though the rite is the same.

In thinking about the issue, though, another side-topic occurred to me. How does the use of the vernacular impact missions? While I love the Eastern Rites, it seems that if they exist outside of their home language area it is merely to follow immigrants, whereas the Latin Rite, using a universal language (not meaning one known by everyone, but universal in the sense that it belonged to no one anymore) spread everywhere. When the Latin Rite, now in the vernacular, seeks to make new inroads, perhaps to a new language group, how is this accomplished? Simply by using a trade language (thus the new people’s second language)? Is there an effort to draft translations? If so, what is the lag time?

(and I know the idea of unreached languages sounds outlandish, but Protestants like Wycliffe Bible translators claim there are thousands of tiny language groups out there who do not have the Scriptures in their native language - thus even if they had been reached by Catholics (which I doubt) they would still not have a vernacular rite).
 
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EddieArent:
Hi Neil,
As you stated, there’s nothing strange about it, but the rite seems rare here at least. Since as you stated, it’s just one of the two Maronite Catholic Eparchies in America. I’ve just now heard about Maronites and I thank you for telling me more about them. Generally speaking, do you know how many people worldwide follow this rite of the Church?

With God,
Eddie
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Eddie,

Firstly, my apologies, I said Saint Jude’s is a parish of the Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon; it’s actually a mission, not yet a parish, and belongs to the Eparchy of Saint Maron in Brooklyn for the Maronites :o . Not sure what caused me to relocate Orlando to the West Coast (location of the Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon of Los Angeles for the Maronites).

Annuario Pontificio 2003, the annual compilation of data on the Catholic Church published by the Vatican, reported the Maronite Catholic Church as having 3,083,754 faithful, making it the third largest of the Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris (after the Ukrainian Greek Catholic and the Syro-Malabarese Catholic Churches). That number includes all those within canonical jurisdictions; the actual census would be slightly higher, since it doesn’t account for the faithful in Maronite parishes that are subject to Latin ordinaries (those situated in countries without a Maronite hierarchical presence). There are about 56,000 Maronites in the US, fairly equally divided between the 2 eparchies, and spread among 65 parishes and several missions (I think there are about a half-dozen churches in FL).

The Maronite Church is a patriarchal church; the presiding hierarch is His Beatitude Mar Nasrallah Boutros Cardinal Sfeir, Patriarch of Antioch and All The East of the Maronites & Archeparch of Antioch of the Maronites. The Church presently has 27 canonical jurisdictions (Archeparchies, Eparchies, and Exarchates) worldwide, including both North (US, Canada, & Mexico) and South America (Argentina and Brazil), and Australia, as well the Near and Middle East, their historical lands of origin. It also has some parishes in Europe, although no jurisdictions there as yet.

The Maronites have the distinction of being members of one of only two Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris which have never been separated from communion with Rome (the other is the Italo-Graeco-Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church). Thus, the Maronites have no Orthodox counterpart.

They initially used the liturgical forms of the West Syriac Tradition within the Antiochian Rite; however, the Church existed in relative geographic isolation in the mountains of what is now Lebanon and its liturgical patrimony evolved to the point where it was sufficiently unique as to be deemed a rite unto itself. As a result, the Maronites are one of only two Eastern Catholic Churches in which the title of the Church and its Rite are co-incident (i.e., the Church and the Rite it uses are both styled “Maronite”) - the other is the Armenian Catholic Church, which uses the Armenian Rite.

For some more detail on the Maronites, see:

CNEWA - Maronite Catholic Church

and

History of the Maronites

Many years,

Neil
 
Eddie,

Just noticed that, by coincidence, today is the feast of Saint Charbel Makhlouf, a Maronite hermit, the first formally canonized saint of Lebanese origin. HH John Paul II canonized Saint Charbel in 1977.

Saint Charbel

Many years,

Neil
 
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ATexasCatholic:
In Houston there is a parish that uses Spanish and English in the same mass. English mass, homily and music in English but all prayers and responses are half English and half Spanish. The Spanish mass which I was at has Spanish music and homily. The pastor said he started to do this in an attempt to bring the parish together as one. He said he thought it was working.
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Our parish tried this at one mass. I speak both English & Spanish and found this totally distracting and confusing. I know it was more so for the English only or Spanish only speakers. One language please no matter which one you choose.
 
Here’s my question to all those who think there shouldn’t be masses in any other language than English. You could learn a prayer in another language, but wouldn’t the prayer in your own language affect you more deeply? YOU ALWAYS LOVE MOST WHAT YOU KNEW FIRST.

It’s the same for all those nonEnglish speakers. Plus other cultures often bring something new such as which feast days they emphasize and how they celebrate.
 
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robertaf:
Greetings Church

Our Diocese is having a synod to address some issues that we are facing. We have had parish meetings, getting the parishioners feelings on different things.

The topic of various ethnic or non-english Masses has been brought up all over the Diocese.
The majority, as I have been told, feel Spanish, Portuguese, etc., Masses divide the Parish.
I won’t go into details but will just ask you, how you feel about this?
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am i missing something here? the majority think it will cause division… has anyone mentioned that the word catholic means universal… duh,… i can’t imagine a greater opportunity for the very kind of worship that would best mirror heaven… all ethnicities coming together under the same roof to worship the same God. Divisive you think… I have been to church services said in more than one language, and even had an interpreter for the deaf. i think the healthiest thing for any church, community or country for that matter is diversity… as i said from the start… am i missing something here… don’t be un-catholic… don’t look for reasons to worship seperately… you can do this… Christ came to build HIS church, not yours… remember, you were just an invitee… 👍
 
A clarification of what Irish Melkite said - although Maronites are predominantly Lebanese in ethnicity, most members of this rite in the US are pretty well integrated. So while there may be some Arabic songs, the masses (divine liturgies) I’ve been to have been predominantly in English - with the exception of some parts of the consecration and so forth which are in Syriac.
 
Why do we in the US feel obligated to accomodate everyone? Although English is not our official language by law, it is by custom. Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are written in English and everyone should learn it. If you choose to live here, you should be willing to accept our culture.

I have lived in Europe and yes, it is easier to use English no matter how fluent one becomes but I would never expect other countries to turn their culture topsy-turvy just to accomodate me.

Call me mean, call me divisive, I don’t care. The Mass is in the vernacular and the vernacular of the US is English.
 
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Mary1973:
Why do we in the US feel obligated to accomodate everyone? Although English is not our official language by law, it is by custom. Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are written in English and everyone should learn it. If you choose to live here, you should be willing to accept our culture.

I have lived in Europe and yes, it is easier to use English no matter how fluent one becomes but I would never expect other countries to turn their culture topsy-turvy just to accomodate me.

Call me mean, call me divisive, I don’t care. The Mass is in the vernacular and the vernacular of the US is English.
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Just a suggestion: Read the plaque on the statue of liberty, i think that will answer your question… 👍

Remember the native americans probably felt exactly as you do… 👍

the only thing i’m calling you is to look outside your box… your not alone and you really don’t want to be… peace! 🙂
 
I can sing what is written on the Statue of Liberty. Wanna hear?

Anyway, yes we welcome immigrants. However, they have an obligation to become good Americans. It used to be a source of pride to learn English. Anyway, I am getting off-topic although I think the two issues are linked.

I can see having an occasional Mass to accomodate the immigrants but I think they should be maybe on feast days that are important to that group.

And just for fun: had a job and a couple of guys in the department were from Taiwan. One day I arrived at work and they were talking to each other in their language. As they saw me approach, they started to whisper. I cracked up and said there was no need to whisper, I didn’t understand a word they were saying!
 
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James0235:
Wow. Mind if I ask where this is?

James
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This is in Nassau County which is on Long Island, New York.

One of the biggest issues I have is the waste of money that the 24 page bulletin is. That could surely be put to better use.
 
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Mary1973:
I can sing what is written on the Statue of Liberty. Wanna hear?

Anyway, yes we welcome immigrants. However, they have an obligation to become good Americans. It used to be a source of pride to learn English. Anyway, I am getting off-topic although I think the two issues are linked.

I can see having an occasional Mass to accomodate the immigrants but I think they should be maybe on feast days that are important to that group.

And just for fun: had a job and a couple of guys in the department were from Taiwan. One day I arrived at work and they were talking to each other in their language. As they saw me approach, they started to whisper. I cracked up and said there was no need to whisper, I didn’t understand a word they were saying!
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Where does it say being a good American means giving up your traditions and culture? All those “immigrants” are bringing their Catholicism and family values WITH them. Thank God because our country can use all the help we can get. 🙂
 
It seem that all the various ethnic Masses are like the contemporary equivalent of the Tower of Babel. If the Church is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic, then this oneness must encompass language. It used to be very comforting to be able to walk into any Catholic Mass and hear the universal language of the Church. The language is one, since it is a “dead” language that is timeless and transcendent and which has a way of connecting us to our rich Catholic past, transcending our present moment, and projecting ourselves into the future with confidence.
It’s okay that the homily be said in the vernacular, which by the way would be in English in this country, but the Mass proper should be said in Latin. The English translation is on the side, anyway.
Saying the Mass in all these various languages does not promote unity, it underscores ethinicity and the Balkanization of the Church. We should not be so concerned about the various ethnicities. Instead we should recognize that we are all Catholics, period. And we come to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as one people understanding a common language-- LATIN. If we were to worship in this manner, it would go a long way in restoring the Oneness that is slowly being eroded in the Church in the West.
 
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Mary1973:
Why do we in the US feel obligated to accomodate everyone? Although English is not our official language by law, it is by custom. Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are written in English and everyone should learn it. If you choose to live here, you should be willing to accept our culture.

I have lived in Europe and yes, it is easier to use English no matter how fluent one becomes but I would never expect other countries to turn their culture topsy-turvy just to accomodate me.

Call me mean, call me divisive, I don’t care. The Mass is in the vernacular and the vernacular of the US is English.
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I am with you on this one!
 
Seeking Wisdom:
Our parish tried this at one mass. I speak both English & Spanish and found this totally distracting and confusing. I know it was more so for the English only or Spanish only speakers. One language please no matter which one you choose.
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I’ve gone to bilingual (English-Spanish) Masses and Weddings. I also find it distracting, especially since the priest usually speaks one of the languages with an accent. I can understand Spanish almost perfectly (it is my second language), unless a fellow English speaker is talking.

On a different topic. I always thought the ethnic parishes predated Vatican II. The Mass may have been in Latin, but the homily was in the vernacular. So, I wonder how a return to the Latin Mass would help in this regard. There would still be the homily in a different language. I have generally been able to follow the prayers in the Masses I’ve attended in Partuguese, French, Spanish, English, and Creole, except for the readings and the homily (and, since I generally study the readings before hand, I didn’t really have trouble with them.).

John
 
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condan:
One of the biggest issues I have is the waste of money that the 24 page bulletin is. That could surely be put to better use.
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I’ll bet that the bulletin costs your parish nothing, and probably even earns you a commission! The publisher sells advertising, which pays the printing costs and a parish commission. If there are ads in each language, they pay for those additional pages.
 
In the Archdiocese of Philadelphia, Sunday Mss is celebrated in 18 different languages. I was impressed by that statistic, until I learned that in Los Angeles, Mass is offered in 42 different languages!
 
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DrCat:
On a different topic. I always thought the ethnic parishes predated Vatican II. The Mass may have been in Latin, but the homily was in the vernacular. So, I wonder how a return to the Latin Mass would help in this regard. There would still be the homily in a different language.
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John,

You’re absolutely correct. Ethnic or “national” parishes pre-dated Vatican II; they were particularly evident in the cities of the Northeast, Mid-Atlantic, and Midwest. And, as you note, the homilies were in the vernacular. When at my grandmother’s home during the summer, my cousins and I walked past St. Louis de France (French) and St. Casimir’s (Polish) parish churches to get to the territorial parish of St. Michael’s - in reality, the Irish parish. Frankly, we liked to go to either of the other two - St. Louis was close and we could get home faster; St. Casimir’s was next door to the Polish bakery, where one could get a marshmallow donut for a nickle - but, my grandmother (who had spies everywhere, it seemed) felt the need for us to understand the homily and would visit her wrath on us, if we were discovered to have strayed into “the French church” or “the Polish church” to fulfill our Sunday obligation.

The same was true of our French-Canadian and Polish playmates who should venture to St. Michael’s and be spotted by an Irish neighbor, who would promptly turn them in to their parents. Mass may have been in Latin, but you needed to be preached at in your native tongue (or the native tongue of your great-grandparents, since these kids were 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th generation Americans). The national parishes have begun to disappear - the families who supported them have gone to suburbia, there is a shortage of priests fluent in the tongues; they are often the first victims in parish mergers and closures due to economics. The newer immigrants speak different languages and aren’t always as ghettoized as their predecessors were. So, they are out there among you - you whose ancestors, unless you were Irish, probably attended a national parish - almost certainly did if there was one available - because religion is best served in one’s most fluent tongue for understandings sake. And, you of Irish descent, who think of yourselves as native English speakers - you weren’t always - your language was taken from you and another’s imposed on you - be kinder than others were to your ancestors.

Many years,

Neil
 
Our rather large parish has a latin Mass once per month, two fairly traditional Masses at 6:00 :9:15, 11:00… A Spanish Mass at 1:00 and a teen life Mass at 6:00

I see no problem adding another language Mass as long as you have the facilities and a priest willing to do one more Mass.
 
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