Eucharist via one species...

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Walking_Home said:
I have a question for you.

When the Chalice is not offered —Do the laity recieve ALL the benefits of our Lord’s Grace . Yes or No.
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In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

In this question you conflate the grace which is present in this and all Sacraments and the unique presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) within the Holy Eurcharist.

The two should ‘not’ be conflated nor should one seek to establish limits of adequacy in one’s participation of the Mysteries of our faith (Mysterium fedei). If truly the Body and the Blood are spiritual nourishment as St. Athanasius clearly distinguishes (Ad Serap. 4:19) then who can say what amount is too little or too much to fill with its grace that void left in His absence? Should our hunger for the gifts of grace present in the Sacraments have a ‘limit’? Is there a limit to the amount of time in Eucharistic Adoration that is nourishing and after which no nourishment comes?

Our desire for that spiritual nouishment should have no end just as our desire to bask in His presence should have no end.

It is not a matter of the efficacy of but one morsel or one drop, it is our hunger and love for our Lord and Saviour which establishes barriers for our capacity for that presence hidden behind those modest signs of Jesus Christ (bread and wine).

I, personally, understand the deep concern chrisb and others appear to share with the level of detachment and distance some handle this most Holy of Topics concerning the Sacrament of our Holy Eucharist. I find it chilling that anyone on fire with the Holy Spirit passes any opportunity to partake of that precious cup of our Lord’s Holy Blood. It is not a matter of establishing adequacy to me! How can one be sated with one’s beloved? Do lovers count the minutes?

Again to me to pass up any oportunity to partake of either species is blasphemy and each signs is a unique encounter with our Lord and Savior which should never be passed over because we believe we have met the limits of necessity.

Again such arguments are belittling and injurious and illustrates the sickness in which intellectualization has blinded us to the Mysteries of our Faith.

Pax Vobiscum
 
st_bernard said:
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

In this question you conflate the grace which is present in this and all Sacraments and the unique presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) within the Holy Eurcharist.

The two should ‘not’ be conflated nor should one seek to establish limits of adequacy in one’s participation of the Mysteries of our faith (Mysterium fedei). If truly the Body and the Blood are spiritual nourishment as St. Athanasius clearly distinguishes (Ad Serap. 4:19) then who can say what amount is too little or too much to fill with its grace that void left in His absence? Should our hunger for the gifts of grace present in the Sacraments have a ‘limit’? Is there a limit to the amount of time in Eucharistic Adoration that is nourishing and after which no nourishment comes?

Our desire for that spiritual nouishment should have no end just as our desire to bask in His presence should have no end.

It is not a matter of the efficacy of but one morsel or one drop, it is our hunger and love for our Lord and Saviour which establishes barriers for our capacity for that presence hidden behind those modest signs of Jesus Christ (bread and wine).

I, personally, understand the deep concern chrisb and others appear to share with the level of detachment and distance some handle this most Holy of Topics concerning the Sacrament of our Holy Eucharist. I find it chilling that anyone on fire with the Holy Spirit passes any opportunity to partake of that precious cup of our Lord’s Holy Blood. It is not a matter of establishing adequacy to me! How can one be sated with one’s beloved? Do lovers count the minutes?

Again to me to pass up any oportunity to partake of either species is blasphemy and each signs is a unique encounter with our Lord and Savior which should never be passed over because we believe we have met the limits of necessity.

Again such arguments are belittling and injurious and illustrates the sickness in which intellectualization has blinded us to the Mysteries of our Faith.

Pax Vobiscum
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What I am reading in your words is— if we do not “hunger” for receiving both species —we are barred from receiving our Lords presence.

Which brings back the question I asked you before. It is not a difficult question.

When the Chalice is not offered —Do the laity receive ALL the full benefits of our Lord’s Grace . Yes or No.
 
It is indeed disturbing. Three separate posters have made quite outrageous, indeed heretical statements about the Eucharist.

And that’'s what their statements have constituted…heresy. Starting with the idea that we’re somehow not obeying Christ or participating fully in the Mass unless we receive the Chalice.
 
Walking_Home said:
What I am reading in your words is— if we do not “hunger” for receiving both species —we are barred from receiving our Lords presence.
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In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

According to St. Cyril of Jerusalem, ‘We become Christ-bearers, since His body and blood are distributed throughout our limbs. So, as blessed Paul expressed it, we are made partakers of the divine nature.’ The essense of communion, states most assuredly St. John Chrysostom, is the uniting of the communicants with Christ, and so with one another: ‘we feed on Him at Whom angels gaze with trembling…’ In St. Theodore’s view the consecrated bread and wine have the power of conveying immortality.

In short, the Holy Eucharist for the fathers was the chief instrument of the Christian’s divinization; through it Christ’s mystical body was built up and sustained. If we know seed of sin, the carnal man, yet rests within us I ask you how is it that we can claim union with God?

The question you ask is not one that is easily answered and only the ignorant and the foolish rush to conclusions. These are Mysteries and the work of God within us to ‘build us up’ is not something which is here one day and gone the next but an endless series of trials of successes and failures along our pilgrimage to the foot of Calvary.

The Sacraments are the nourishment along the way and the Holy Eucharist provides the guide in fits and false starts due to our dullness and frailty till the veil is slowly pulled aside to reveil the Beatific Vision only in glimpses this side of eternity.

Where you and other like you grasp to establish justification I and others see the light on the path of sanctification.

This is the old faith; the old way of the athleta Christi (athletes of Christ). You seek confirmation through external signs and affirmations by dogmas and doctrines. We encounter the graces behind them through faith.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ in as much as it is the faithful servant of Holy Tradition which is the deposit of faith handed down from Christ through the Apostles and Saints. To cease to be the faithful servant of Holy Tradition is to cease to be in the Body of Christ. It is as much a binding to the Divine Will as it is our participating in said Will. We are not free to our own whim.
Which brings back the question I asked you before. It is not a difficult question.
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When the Chalice is not offered —Do the laity receive ALL the full benefits of our Lord’s Grace . Yes or No.
Click to expand...
For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear perhaps but you have muffled their senses by limiting their ease of participation at the Heavenly Banquet.

Pax Vobiscum
 
Bernard of Clairvaux would be shocked at his namesake’s views.

Nobody is making life harder for anybody by offering them the FULL and COMPLETE Eucharist at Mass. And that’s what happens when EITHER species is offered.

You don’t get more grace by receiving both species. You don’t become more of a saint. You don’t get a double prize.

And the people who receive one species aren’t minimalists, they’re not causing you to experience blasphemy, they’re not coldly intellectual in contrast to your warm love.

You sound like a Gnostic.
 
st_bernard said:
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

According to St. Cyril of Jerusalem, ‘We become Christ-bearers, since His body and blood are distributed throughout our limbs. So, as blessed Paul expressed it, we are made partakers of the divine nature.’ The essense of communion, states most assuredly St. John Chrysostom, is the uniting of the communicants with Christ, and so with one another: ‘we feed on Him at Whom angels gaze with trembling…’ In St. Theodore’s view the consecrated bread and wine have the power of conveying immortality.

In short, the Holy Eucharist for the fathers was the chief instrument of the Christian’s divinization; through it Christ’s mystical body was built up and sustained. If we know seed of sin, the carnal man, yet rests within us I ask you how is it that we can claim union with God?

The question you ask is not one that is easily answered and only the ignorant and the foolish rush to conclusions. These are Mysteries and the work of God within us to ‘build us up’ is not something which is here one day and gone the next but an endless series of trials of successes and failures along our pilgrimage to the foot of Calvary.

The Sacraments are the nourishment along the way and the Holy Eucharist provides the guide in fits and false starts due to our dullness and frailty till the veil is slowly pulled aside to reveil the Beatific Vision only in glimpses this side of eternity.

Where you and other like you grasp to establish justification I and others see the light on the path of sanctification.

This is the old faith; the old way of the athleta Christi (athletes of Christ). You seek confirmation through external signs and affirmations by dogmas and doctrines. We encounter the graces behind them through faith.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ in as much as it is the faithful servant of Holy Tradition which is the deposit of faith handed down from Christ through the Apostles and Saints. To cease to be the faithful servant of Holy Tradition is to cease to be in the Body of Christ. It is as much a binding to the Divine Will as it is our participating in said Will. We are not free to our own whim.

For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear perhaps but you have muffled their senses by limiting their ease of participation at the Heavenly Banquet.

Pax Vobiscum
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The way you are beating about the bush—I gather the answer to my question is No.

Question given to st_bernard.

When the Chalice is not offered —Do the laity receive ALL the full benefits of our Lord’s Grace . Yes or No.
 
Walking_Home said:
The way you are beating about the bush—I gather the answer to my question is No.

Question given to st_bernard.

When the Chalice is not offered —Do the laity receive ALL the full benefits of our Lord’s Grace . Yes or No.
Click to expand...
For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear perhaps but you have muffled their senses by limiting their ease of participation at the Heavenly Banquet.
 
st_bernard said:
For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear perhaps but you have muffled their senses by limiting their ease of participation at the Heavenly Banquet.
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This just verifies that your answer is No.

You do Not believe we receive all of our Lord’s grace–if we do not receive from the Chalice.
 
Walking_Home said:
You do Not believe we receive all of our Lord’s grace–if we do not receive from the Chalice.
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St. Bernard: If the above is true, then that is heresy according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. You need to rethink this, perhaps speak to your priest.
 
Oh, I have read quite a bit of Bernard of Clairvaux…amazingly, no Eucharistic heresies in any of it.
 
JKirkLVNV said:
St. Bernard: If the above is true, then that is heresy according to the teaching of the Catholic Church. You need to rethink this, perhaps speak to your priest.
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I don’t believe desiring to ‘participate’ more fully is ‘hersey’. No one is arguing that Christ is divined between the species but that that ‘participating more fully’ we would do what Christ and His Apostles did ‘eat and drink’!

I believe this is more about our participation in the Mystery than establishing we have the presense of Christ within us with the merest speck of Body.

As I’ve stated before the outward signs are ‘for’ us not God. The more participation we have ‘in the outward signs’ the better it is ‘for us’. Not that we experience ‘more’ but that we are more edified and like st_bernard stated ‘built up’.

At least that is my point anyway.
 
chrisb said:
I don’t believe desiring to ‘participate’ more fully is ‘hersey’. No one is arguing that Christ is divined between the species but that that ‘participating more fully’ we would do what Christ and His Apostles did ‘eat and drink’!

I believe this is more about our participation in the Mystery than establishing we have the presense of Christ within us with the merest speck of Body.

As I’ve stated before the outward signs are ‘for’ us not God. The more participation we have ‘in the outward signs’ the better it is ‘for us’. Not that we experience ‘more’ but that we are more edified and like st_bernard stated ‘built up’.
At least that is my point anyway.
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We are edified (built up) by the infusion of the full benefits of our Lord’s grace receive in Holy Communion. This occurs by receiving our Lord thru either species----Not by the “sign”.

Saying that we are more edified by the sign of receiving under both species is just another way of say --we lack the full benefits if only receive one.
 
Walking_Home said:
We are edified (built up) by the infusion of the full benefits of our Lord’s grace receive in Holy Communion. This occurs by receiving our Lord thru either species----Not by the “sign”.

Saying that we are more edified by the sign of receiving under both species is just another way of say --we lack the full benefits if only receive one.
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Why is it so important to have beautiful chapels and whatnot then? Isn’t it for the benefit of the Laity. The Angels are there but we cannot see them… The saints are there but we need statues, again because we don’t see them.

The point is that all this stuff is for us because our human weaknesses.

Can anyone understand what I am saying? The Rubric Police seem to want to paint us all as a bunch of heretics…

I think what we are saying is so clear… Do what Christ taught, Period. It’s better that way.
 
Resurrexit said:
The infallible anathema statements of the Most Holy Council of Trent:

CANON I.–If any one saith, that, by the precept of God, or, by necessity of salvation, all and each of the faithful of Christ ought to receive both species of the most holy sacrament not consecrating; let him be anathema.

CANON II.–if any one saith, that the holy Catholic Church was not induced, by just causes and reasons, to communicate, under the species of bread only, laymen, and also clerics when not consecrating; let him be be anathema.

CANON III.–If any one denieth, that Christ whole and entire -the fountain and author of all graces–is received under the one species of bread; because that-as some falsely assert–He is not received, according to the institution of Christ himself, under both species; let him be anathema.

CANON IV.–If any one saith, that the communion of the Eucharist is necessary for little children, before they have arrived at years of discretion; let him be anathema.

(See: 21st Session of the Council of Trent)

Deo gratias!
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I think that this needs to be reiterated. If you hold to these positions, the Church has said, “let you be cursed” (the meaning of anathema) If there is some other point you are trying to make then go for it.

It seems that there is a false dictonomy of faith and reason on this thread. Several have already condemned scholasticism, but why should it be condemned? Scholasticism is simply trying to use our God given reason to understand certain things. Some are opposed to this because they feel it is an assault on faith, but the Church has spoken, and it says that faith and reason are not opposed.

A lone Raven
 
Outside the English speaking world and parts of Westren Europe, communion under both species is rare. Even in parts of the US, communion under both species is still not the norm(such examples are older inner city and "ethnic"parishes). For crying out loud, Papal Masses the vast majority of time only have communion under one species. So in short, the priest who celebrates a mass is under NO obligation what so ever to have communion under both species avilable to the laity.
chrisb said:
Hi Tee,

So you are saying that even in the Novus Ordo the Church isn’t abliged to offer the Holy Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ?

My whole concern isn’t about the divine essence ‘shared’ between the two species. My whole concern is about not practicing what has come down from Holy Tradition as the ‘complete’ Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

I didn’t know we where protestants and looking for the minimum requirement in our obedience of our faith but Catholic participating in the fullest expression of the faith.

These arguments lead one to follow minimums and not the fullness of our faith. I really don’t like that. It leaves a bad feeling in my heart.

I believe, as Catholics, we should participate fulling in our faith and not to minimize and philosophize the faith down to essences.

That is my feelings on the matter anyway. This whole debate is about minimums not maximums as bearers of Christ and His Holy Traditions we should be all about the maximums and the fullness of the faith and not about philosophizing shortcuts.

Shortcuts are for Protestants not Catholics.
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chrisb said:
Why is it so important to have beautiful chapels and whatnot then? Isn’t it for the benefit of the Laity. The Angels are there but we cannot see them… The saints are there but we need statues, again because we don’t see them.

The point is that all this stuff is for us because our human weaknesses.

Can anyone understand what I am saying? The Rubric Police seem to want to paint us all as a bunch of heretics…

I think what we are saying is so clear… Do what Christ taught, Period. It’s better that way.
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But we are. Did not our Lord also say —to eat His flesh without mentioning His Blood. He taught this. Just as He said to eat and drink—He also said eat.

Do you believe our Lord Christ contradicted Himself.
 
“I think what we are saying is so clear… Do what Christ taught, Period. It’s better that way.”

Anti-Catholic hogwash, in plain English.

The point of this carefully crafted sentence is clear. If you don’t receive under both species, you’re not doing what Christ taught, which, of course, would be a bad thing.

But the Church teaches we ARE doing what Christ taught when we receive under one species.

Your views are not Catholic, ChrisB. And elsewhere on these fora you have posted that the Catholic Church has moved away from the teachings of Christ, only to start inching back since Vatican II.

More heresy. More offensive slander against the Church.

As for Bernard and the Immaculate Conception…the doctrine was not proclaimed until 1854. Before then, differences of opinion were permitted.

On the Eucharist…no such wiggle room exists.
 
You really have no clue what you are talking about do you? The FACT is that communion under one species is the NORM that the vast majority of the church distributes communion.It is the NORM in Papal masses. The church in the infallible council of Trent stated that the fullness of the body and blood of Christ is in either species. Climing anything elese is a denial of a dogma of the church.
st_bernard said:
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

According to St. Cyril of Jerusalem, ‘We become Christ-bearers, since His body and blood are distributed throughout our limbs. So, as blessed Paul expressed it, we are made partakers of the divine nature.’ The essense of communion, states most assuredly St. John Chrysostom, is the uniting of the communicants with Christ, and so with one another: ‘we feed on Him at Whom angels gaze with trembling…’ In St. Theodore’s view the consecrated bread and wine have the power of conveying immortality.

In short, the Holy Eucharist for the fathers was the chief instrument of the Christian’s divinization; through it Christ’s mystical body was built up and sustained. If we know seed of sin, the carnal man, yet rests within us I ask you how is it that we can claim union with God?

The question you ask is not one that is easily answered and only the ignorant and the foolish rush to conclusions. These are Mysteries and the work of God within us to ‘build us up’ is not something which is here one day and gone the next but an endless series of trials of successes and failures along our pilgrimage to the foot of Calvary.

The Sacraments are the nourishment along the way and the Holy Eucharist provides the guide in fits and false starts due to our dullness and frailty till the veil is slowly pulled aside to reveil the Beatific Vision only in glimpses this side of eternity.

Where you and other like you grasp to establish justification I and others see the light on the path of sanctification.

This is the old faith; the old way of the athleta Christi (athletes of Christ). You seek confirmation through external signs and affirmations by dogmas and doctrines. We encounter the graces behind them through faith.

The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ in as much as it is the faithful servant of Holy Tradition which is the deposit of faith handed down from Christ through the Apostles and Saints. To cease to be the faithful servant of Holy Tradition is to cease to be in the Body of Christ. It is as much a binding to the Divine Will as it is our participating in said Will. We are not free to our own whim.

For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear perhaps but you have muffled their senses by limiting their ease of participation at the Heavenly Banquet.

Pax Vobiscum
Click to expand...
 
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