Eucharist via one species...

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I think what we are saying is so clear… Do what Christ taught, Period. It’s better that way.
But the Church teaches we ARE doing what Christ taught when we receive under one species.
Moreover:
  • Christ taught that to Peter and the Apostles was given the authority to bind and loose, which they transmit to their successors.
  • I, for one, am happy to submit my intellect and will to that authority, which (as noted by AlexV and others) says the two species need not be proffered to the faithful but that even when they both are, the faithful who partake one need not partake the other.
  • In my opinion, and not that the Church requires it, I presume the faithful who partake one but not the other have their reasons, which are most likely not my business.
tee
 
Is it just me or are the Eucharistic Hosts different re: the large majority of Novus Ordo’s are a honey tan and at most indult and traditional masses are white…

I also noticed that in televised masses from Rome & EWTN they are also white…

Why the differences ?

james
This is a bit off topic, but never mind. As long as the requirements for valid matter (ie unleveaned bread in the Latin Rite, leavened in the Eastern Rite) are fulfilled, the colour is less important. The difference is probably one of supplier and style- not ecclesiastical.
 
Why do you think the Church returned to the Eucharist under two species?
 
Why do you think the Church returned to the Eucharist under two species?

Because She has the authority to do so. Just as She has the authority to withdraw the Chalice —when She determines that Her doctrine is being undermined by heretical understandings.
 
Why do you think the Church returned to the Eucharist under two species?
The Church as a whole has not. Some parishes and even some diocese have, but the Church as a whole has not returned to it.

A lone Raven
 
The Church as a whole has not. Some parishes and even some diocese have, but the Church as a whole has not returned to it.

A lone Raven

Exactly.

The Church has allowed the Chalice to be offered in places. She has not “commanded”–that the Chalice be offered thru out the universal Church or “commanded” the laity to receive from the Chalice.
 
You really have no clue what you are talking about do you? The FACT is that communion under one species is the NORM that the vast majority of the church distributes communion.It is the NORM in Papal masses. The church in the infallible council of Trent stated that the fullness of the body and blood of Christ is in either species. Climing anything elese is a denial of a dogma of the church.
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

The FACT is that the vast majority of the church isn’t participating in the Normative practice of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

The Church is not a Democracy and majority doesn’t rule nor does the majority set that standards for what is Normative.

This is a clear case where the exercise of Economy has been mistaken for what is Normative.

In Holy Baptism the Normative practice is immersion with infusion and aspersion as exercises of Economy. All are Valid but the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacrament in it’s Normative means, which is ‘immersion’. Although aspersion is Valid it is not nor should it ever been considered Normative.

In Holy Eucharist, the case is the same, participation in the Holy Eucharist under two species is Normative. The participation in the Holy Eucharist under one speicies is an exercise of Economy on the part of the Church. Yes Both are Valid but again the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacraments in by their Normative means.

This is not an issue of heresy but of recognizing the Normative practice of the Sacraments. The Exercise of Economy is well and good but the Church should never ever give the appearance that the Normative practice of the Sacraments are somehow abnormal and mistake the exercise of economy in the Sacraments as the Normative practice.

Again this is how Tradition erodes. It should never happen the Church should always seek the Normative Practice of the Sacraments but when the situation is not conducive the exercise of economy is always within the power of the Church but this power is not a license to evolve or change the Normative Practices of the Sacraments which has been taught and given to the Church by Christ.

The Church should ever been the sacred guardian of that deposit of faith and instrument of grace given to her by her Lord and Saviour.

It is well and good that you all know the limits that Church has established on the exercise of valid Sacraments. Truly such limits should be known and professed but you error when you argue that such diverse limits are the Norm for they are not.

Again this is not a discussion about validity and effecacy but about the Norms of practice of the Sacraments.

None appear to understand this.

Pax Vobiscum
 
Excuse me, “St. Bernard” (the name is offensive given your outrageous posts)…

Reception under two species is NOT “normative”, in contrast to reception under one species.

The Church has never taught this, because it isn’t true.

Similarly, Baptism through immersion is not “normative”, with infusion as some less than ideal or perfect compromise.

Your views are not Catholic. They are, indeed, yours. All yours.

You have written offensive things about Catholicism on these fora.

I received this morning at a rail, kneeling, under one form. That was indeed a NORMATIVE reception of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist. I was baptized by infusion. That was also NORMATIVE.

Take your errors elsewhere. That, or cite something authoritative that contravenes Trent.

Oh…sorry…no such contravention exists. This IS about dogma and doctrine…orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

Your posts are full of errors and outright lies.
 
Again, communion under both species is really only the “norm” in the English speaking world(and only in the developed nations of the English speaking world) and parts of Westren Europe.Again, in the vast majority of the church, be it Southren Europe, Eastren Europe, Asia, Africa and Latin America, communion under one species is the Norm.
Why do you think the Church returned to the Eucharist under two species?
 
Thwe one that does not understand is YOU. You do not seem to understand that even at masses in the Vatican itself, the NORM is communion under one species, and both species when its done is usually by intinction.If YOU have a problem with this, bring it up with Pope Benidict XVI himself.

I sure hope you are not getting your views at a school you have to pay money for, because YOU do not seem to understand what the NORM is.
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

The FACT is that the vast majority of the church isn’t participating in the Normative practice of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

The Church is not a Democracy and majority doesn’t rule nor does the majority set that standards for what is Normative.

This is a clear case where the exercise of Economy has been mistaken for what is Normative.

In Holy Baptism the Normative practice is immersion with infusion and aspersion as exercises of Economy. All are Valid but the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacrament in it’s Normative means, which is ‘immersion’. Although aspersion is Valid it is not nor should it ever been considered Normative.

In Holy Eucharist, the case is the same, participation in the Holy Eucharist under two species is Normative. The participation in the Holy Eucharist under one speicies is an exercise of Economy on the part of the Church. Yes Both are Valid but again the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacraments in by their Normative means.

This is not an issue of heresy but of recognizing the Normative practice of the Sacraments. The Exercise of Economy is well and good but the Church should never ever give the appearance that the Normative practice of the Sacraments are somehow abnormal and mistake the exercise of economy in the Sacraments as the Normative practice.

Again this is how Tradition erodes. It should never happen the Church should always seek the Normative Practice of the Sacraments but when the situation is not conducive the exercise of economy is always within the power of the Church but this power is not a license to evolve or change the Normative Practices of the Sacraments which has been taught and given to the Church by Christ.

The Church should ever been the sacred guardian of that deposit of faith and instrument of grace given to her by her Lord and Saviour.

It is well and good that you all know the limits that Church has established on the exercise of valid Sacraments. Truly such limits should be known and professed but you error when you argue that such diverse limits are the Norm for they are not.

Again this is not a discussion about validity and effecacy but about the Norms of practice of the Sacraments.

None appear to understand this.

Pax Vobiscum
 
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

The FACT is that the vast majority of the church isn’t participating in the Normative practice of the Sacrament of the Holy Eucharist.

The Church is not a Democracy and majority doesn’t rule nor does the majority set that standards for what is Normative.

This is a clear case where the exercise of Economy has been mistaken for what is Normative.

In Holy Baptism the Normative practice is immersion with infusion and aspersion as exercises of Economy. All are Valid but the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacrament in it’s Normative means, which is ‘immersion’. Although aspersion is Valid it is not nor should it ever been considered Normative.

In Holy Eucharist, the case is the same, participation in the Holy Eucharist under two species is Normative. The participation in the Holy Eucharist under one speicies is an exercise of Economy on the part of the Church. Yes Both are Valid but again the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacraments in by their Normative means.

This is not an issue of heresy but of recognizing the Normative practice of the Sacraments. The Exercise of Economy is well and good but the Church should never ever give the appearance that the Normative practice of the Sacraments are somehow abnormal and mistake the exercise of economy in the Sacraments as the Normative practice.

Again this is how Tradition erodes. It should never happen the Church should always seek the Normative Practice of the Sacraments but when the situation is not conducive the exercise of economy is always within the power of the Church but this power is not a license to evolve or change the Normative Practices of the Sacraments which has been taught and given to the Church by Christ.

The Church should ever been the sacred guardian of that deposit of faith and instrument of grace given to her by her Lord and Saviour.

It is well and good that you all know the limits that Church has established on the exercise of valid Sacraments. Truly such limits should be known and professed but you error when you argue that such diverse limits are the Norm for they are not.

Again this is not a discussion about validity and effecacy but about the Norms of practice of the Sacraments.

None appear to understand this.

Pax Vobiscum

Well thankyou —st_bernard for bringing baptism up.

It seems—the Church will have another problem to contend to —if full immersion is being promoted thru your way of misunderstanding.

What better way to undermine the Church —than thru the careful manipulation of the language of Her teachings.
 
Everybody look up. Waaaaaay up. Right up to Post #10. Resurrexit quoted the Council of Trent. Trent says we only need to receive one Species. Would somebody explain why they believe Trent to be a heretic council, thus creating an apostate church, which turns Jesus into a liar for promising that the gates of hell would not prevail?
 
Everybody look up. Waaaaaay up. Right up to Post #10. Resurrexit quoted the Council of Trent. Trent says we only need to receive one Species. Would somebody explain why they believe Trent to be a heretic council, thus creating an apostate church, which turns Jesus into a liar for promising that the gates of hell would not prevail?
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

I have not claimed the Holy Council of Trent to be heretical nor has anyone else whom I’ve read in this thread so far. What I have stated is that receiving the Eucharist in both the Holy Body and Holy Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is not only more reverent but is a fuller sign of our participation in the Sacrament. This is because the two species (i.e. signs) are the normative practice of the Holy Eucharist instituted by Christ our Lord and I dare say the Church should always strive to protect and serve the normative practices of these Sacraments instituted by God. These are sacred rites given to her care and we do well to always remember this.

This is about reverent participation and practice and not about validity and efficacy of the Sacrament.

Talking during the Mass, playing video games on your cellphone, chewing gum, coming in late and leaving early all erode the reverence of the Mass and do injury (i.e. blaspheme) to God and the Church but it doesn’t invalidate the Mass, nor does it impede the reception of Grace but I dare say it impedes our participation with the grace received because we partake of it with an attitude of contempt due to our lack of reverence. At the very least, when both species are offered, the laity who receive but one species should reverence the other when walking past. To fail to do so intentionally is in my humble opinion injurious to the sanctity of the Chalice. Far too many have this practice but I believe it is one of ignorance and a lack of reverence which should be addressed. When only one species is offered, due to circumstances beyond the control of the celebrant, then the normative and again I dare say fuller sign is amended to accommodate the necessities of the Church. This is always an act of Oikonomia (Economia or Economy) which is not to be seen as ‘less’ for regardless of the same grace flows through the Sacrament either way but I will again state that the Church should not look at this as a means to greater slothfulness and laziness with her sacred duty to preserve and protect the Sacraments placed in her care for the nourishment and building up of her Children.

The Council of Trent busied itself with a different problem articulating the unity and efficacy of the Eucharist under ‘either’ species and such is well and good but one cannot escape the demands to the standard of practice for the Sacraments. The normal case should always be akribia, or strict adherence to the standards. Economia means leniently. Akrevia means strictly.

A canon is a ‘rule’ or ‘guide’ for the service of worship, the sacraments, and the governing of the Church. Only the Pope, as head of the Universal Church and the bishop, as head of the local Church, enforces them. He can enforce them rigidly (akrivia), or flexibly (economia) but ‘precision’ is the norm. Once the particular circumstance has past - that demanded a conceding and accommodating judgement - ‘akrivia’ assumes once again her full force. It cannot be that the ‘economia’, which was necessary in a specific situation, should become an example and should be later retained as the rule. This my friends is a grave error and the one which I have been attempting to make for you.

When we understand these things we grasp the whole nature of the Councils and why further guidance in the future will be necessary. The Church, the Sacraments, the Canons, etc. are organic living means to the shepharding of His flock. There have been and there will be times when the Church, in her wisdom, makes use of Economia and at times these will be measured in years or perhaps even centuries but the Church will and must always understand that such are the exceptions to the rules and do not set new norms.

Again Pax Vobiscum
 
In nomine Iesu pax vobiscum,

I have not claimed the Holy Council of Trent to be heretical nor has anyone else whom I’ve read in this thread so far. What I have stated is that receiving the Eucharist in both the Holy Body and Holy Blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is not only more reverent but is a fuller sign of our participation in the Sacrament. This is because the two species (i.e. signs) are the normative practice of the Holy Eucharist instituted by Christ our Lord and I dare say the Church should always strive to protect and serve the normative practices of these Sacraments instituted by God. These are sacred rites given to her care and we do well to always remember this.

This is about reverent participation and practice and not about validity and efficacy of the Sacrament.

Talking during the Mass, playing video games on your cellphone, chewing gum, coming in late and leaving early all erode the reverence of the Mass and do injury (i.e. blaspheme) to God and the Church but it doesn’t invalidate the Mass, nor does it impede the reception of Grace but I dare say it impedes our participation with the grace received because we partake of it with an attitude of contempt due to our lack of reverence. At the very least, when both species are offered, the laity who receive but one species should reverence the other when walking past. To fail to do so intentionally is in my humble opinion injurious to the sanctity of the Chalice. Far too many have this practice but I believe it is one of ignorance and a lack of reverence which should be addressed. When only one species is offered, due to circumstances beyond the control of the celebrant, then the normative and again I dare say fuller sign is amended to accommodate the necessities of the Church. This is always an act of Oikonomia (Economia or Economy) which is not to be seen as ‘less’ for regardless of the same grace flows through the Sacrament either way but I will again state that the Church should not look at this as a means to greater slothfulness and laziness with her sacred duty to preserve and protect the Sacraments placed in her care for the nourishment and building up of her Children.

The Council of Trent busied itself with a different problem articulating the unity and efficacy of the Eucharist under ‘either’ species and such is well and good but one cannot escape the demands to the standard of practice for the Sacraments. The normal case should always be akribia, or strict adherence to the standards. Economia means leniently. Akrevia means strictly.

A canon is a ‘rule’ or ‘guide’ for the service of worship, the sacraments, and the governing of the Church. Only the Pope, as head of the Universal Church and the bishop, as head of the local Church, enforces them. He can enforce them rigidly (akrivia), or flexibly (economia) but ‘precision’ is the norm. Once the particular circumstance has past - that demanded a conceding and accommodating judgement - ‘akrivia’ assumes once again her full force. It cannot be that the ‘economia’, which was necessary in a specific situation, should become an example and should be later retained as the rule. This my friends is a grave error and the one which I have been attempting to make for you.

When we understand these things we grasp the whole nature of the Councils and why further guidance in the future will be necessary. The Church, the Sacraments, the Canons, etc. are organic living means to the shepharding of His flock. There have been and there will be times when the Church, in her wisdom, makes use of Economia and at times these will be measured in years or perhaps even centuries but the Church will and must always understand that such are the exceptions to the rules and do not set new norms.

Again Pax Vobiscum

What I derive from reading your post is that the Church has been negligent in Her administration of the sacraments. This is just another ploy to cast doubt in the Church’s ability to abide by our Lord Christ.

That is how heresies start and florish. By casting doubt on the Church----thru the manipulation teachings, scripture and people.
 
Nice you keep offering “peace”, “St. Bernard”…in reality you spread division, falsehood, and malicious slander against the Church.

Reception of Holy Communion under two forms is NOT normative to the exclusion of reception under one.

It is false and erroneous to argue that one method is normative and the other not.

Spare us the Greek lessons, too. I’m quite conversant in that language, and your views on “economy” are irrelevant to this issue. Utterly irrelevant.

You speak for yourself. Not the Church, not Christ, not anyone or anything but yourself. And your views need to be condemned as the errors they are.
 

RE:
In Holy Baptism the Normative practice is immersion with infusion and aspersion as exercises of Economy. All are Valid but the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacrament in it’s Normative means, which is ‘immersion’. :eek: Although aspersion is Valid it is not nor should it ever been considered Normative.​

Psalms 50
9 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
Leviticus 14
7 Wherewith he shall sprinkle him that is to be cleansed seven times, that he may be rightly purified:
Isaias 52
15 He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: for they to whom it was not told of him, have seen: and they that heard not, have beheld.
Ezechiel 36
25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
[Sounds like pouring can do a heck of a job.]

Acts Of Apostles 2
16 But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days of my spirit, and they shall prophesy.​

Tertullian described baptism by saying that it is done "with so great simplicity, without pomp, without any considerable novelty of preparation, and finally, without cost, a man is baptized in water, and amid the utterance of some few words,** is sprinkled**, and then rises again,​

Then there is the artistic evidence. Much of the earliest Christian artwork depicts baptism—but not A SINGLE baptism by immersion! If the recipient of the sacrament is in a river, he is shown standing in the river while water is poured over his head from a cup or shell. Tile mosaics in ancient churches and paintings in the catacombs depict baptism by pouring. Baptisteries in early cemeteries are clear witnesses to baptisms by infusion.
Catholic Answers
 

RE:
In Holy Baptism the Normative practice is immersion with infusion and aspersion as exercises of Economy. All are Valid but the Church should always strive to exercise the Sacrament in it’s Normative means, which is ‘immersion’. :eek: Although aspersion is Valid it is not nor should it ever been considered Normative.​

Psalms 50
9 Thou shalt sprinkle me with hyssop, and I shall be cleansed: thou shalt wash me, and I shall be made whiter than snow.
Leviticus 14
7 Wherewith he shall sprinkle him that is to be cleansed seven times, that he may be rightly purified:
Isaias 52
15 He shall sprinkle many nations, kings shall shut their mouth at him: for they to whom it was not told of him, have seen: and they that heard not, have beheld.
Ezechiel 36
25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
[Sounds like pouring can do a heck of a job.]

Acts Of Apostles 2
16 But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel:
17 And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days of my spirit, and they shall prophesy.​

I don’t agree with the poster you’re answering, TNT, but I’m not entirely certain that the above makes much more of a case for pouring as NORMATIVE. The Jewish ritual bath had long been operative at the time of Christ and the Jews would have been quite familiar with St. John the Baptist’s baptism. I’ve heard it argued both ways, that it would have been immersive or poured. I never have thought it mattered (I didn’t think it mattered when I was a Baptist!) and I still don’t (the Church allows for both).

But anyway, when did you become such a prooftexter? Haven’t been watching Swaggert for amusement, have you?
 

But anyway, when did you become such a prooftexter? Haven’t been watching Swaggert for amusement, have you?
I have COC extended family!:mad:
Ezechiel 36
25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
** [Sounds like pouring can do a heck of a job. in the future, like a prophecy even.]

**
I use it in combat duty;)
 
I have COC extended family!:mad:
Ezechiel 36
25 And I will pour upon you clean water, and you shall be cleansed from all your filthiness, and I will cleanse you from all your idols.
** [Sounds like pouring can do a heck of a job. in the future]

**
I use it in combat duty;)
COC?!!?!? Oh, well, say no more! Understood!
 
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