Eucharistic Ministers/lectors

[a_pilgrim]

If I may…

As a Byzantine Catholic, the occasion of laity distributing the Blessed Sacrament is pretty much a non-issue in my Church; hence, the concern as to what to call these lay individuals is a moot point.

The Statutes of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma, my home eparchy (diocese) does, however, address the role of the laity within the Church and what or, more to the point, what not to call these lay individuals. Statute 20.2. reads as follows:

20.2. Laity who fulfill tasks of the ministry are not to be entitled “ministers”. This term is reserved to the ordained clergy.

Sounds to me like a good way to avoid the semantic confusion that’s certainly evident throughout this thread…

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

You should use Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion when referring to laity who assist in distributing Holy Communion. The big problem is that people are confused because the right terminology is not being used to describe the person’s duty. We needn’t perpetuate the confusion by using the wrong terminology.

Actually, they are accepted synonyms for each other at the parish level. It is not any more reverent to use one term or another. I give credit to Catholic in the pews that they can differentiate between the duties and still use the same term.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, they are accepted synonyms for each other at the parish level. It is not any more reverent to use one term or another. I give credit to Catholic in the pews that they can differentiate between the duties and still use the same term.

Just because something is done or said “at the parish level” doesn’t make it correct. We need to stick to the terms that Rome uses. What part of that do you not understand?

 

[Lepanto]

If I may…

As a Byzantine Catholic, the occasion of laity distributing the Blessed Sacrament is pretty much a non-issue in my Church; hence, the concern as to what to call these lay individuals is a moot point.

The Statutes of the Byzantine Catholic Eparchy of Parma, my home eparchy (diocese) does, however, address the role of the laity within the Church and what or, more to the point, what not to call these lay individuals. Statute 20.2. reads as follows:

Sounds to me like a good way to avoid the semantic confusion that’s certainly evident throughout this thread…

Good point. What title is used for these people?

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Just because something is done or said “at the parish level” doesn’t make it correct. We need to stick to the terms that Rome uses. What part of that do you not understand?

What Rome uses is part of their local traditions. It does not universally work well around the world. When you get away from Rome, most people have their personal religion as only part of their day to day lives. Long, wordy definitions show they are long and wordy when people shorten them. It is seen as added fluff on the entire spiritual experience of mass. It is about having language that is appropriate to your audience (I happen to just have finished my 4th Toastmasters speech with this very point today ).

It is this way with any organization, terms used at the top are often not the ones used at the bottom. It is the same principle as in this IBM commercial you might have seen recently.

youtube.com/watch?v=cgeLY7CL5IE

The context it is used in in day to day parish life does not change through this entire discussion, just more than one way to express the same idea.

 

[THurifer2]

What Rome uses is part of their local traditions. It does not universally work well around the world.

I thought this was the universal church.?!

When you get away from Rome,

You become protestant

Long, wordy definitions show they are long and wordy when people shorten them.

Oh, OK that surely makes it right to be openly defiant of the Church.

It is seen as added fluff on the entire spiritual experience of mass…

What? is there somewhere in the creed or Eucharistic prayers that use the Term Extraordinary Ministers Of Holy Communion? How terrible to add such fluff! it just ruins mass!!

It is about having language that is appropriate to your audience.

Um, Like me thinks thats why Arinze wanted to correct us and all. Golly what a not so down to earth dude!

It is this way with any organization,

Is this just any organization?

terms used at the top are often not the ones used at the bottom.

And that is why there is so much confusion in todays world…I can just imagine this silly idea used in the air traffic control industry.

It is the same principle as in this IBM commercial you might have seen recently.

Um…well…hate to break it to you …but this aint IBM:blush:

youtube.com/watch?v=cgeLY7CL5IE

The context it is used in in day to day parish life does not change through this entire discussion, just more than one way to express the same idea.

Golly you could have just abreviated your post by saying you dont care what rome thinks because they aren’t down to earth.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

That the Church is universal is not the same as saying it is (or should be) cookie cutter like identical in all ways in every place.

Per the dictionary at CatholicReference.Net:

UNIVERSAL

Whatever is common to many; or some one thing that is common to many and that can be in many or applied to many. Used in the sense of Catholic, referring to the church, univesal means being everywhere geographically, continuous historically, the same essentially, and available indiscriminately.

All items in this dictionary are from Fr. John Hardon’s Modern Catholic Dictionary, © Eternal Life. Used with permission.

catholicreference.net/index.cfm

And from the CCC:

835 “Let us be very careful not to conceive of the universal Church as the simple sum, or . . . the more or less anomalous federation of essentially different particular churches. In the mind of the Lord the Church is universal by vocation and mission, but when she put down her roots in a variety of cultural, social, and human terrains, she takes on different external expressions and appearances in each part of the world.” 318 The rich variety of ecclesiastical disciplines, liturgical rites, and theological and spiritual heritages proper to the local churches “unified in a common effort, shows all the more resplendently the catholicity of the undivided Church.” 319

catholicculture.org/library/catechism/cat_view.cfm?recnum=3064&repos=5&subrepos=8&searchid=175473

 

[DallasCatholic]

That the Church is universal is not the same as saying it is (or should be) cookie cutter like identical in all ways in every place.

Per the dictionary at CatholicReference.Net:

catholicreference.net/index.cfm

And from the CCC:

catholicculture.org/library/catechism/cat_view.cfm?recnum=3064&repos=5&subrepos=8&searchid=175473

I think the entire point is that there ARE certain things that are mandated for the entire Catholic Church. New Ulm’s response has been taken by many in this thread to be a question of obedience to the Church. The point being that Cardinal Arinze and his Congregation went to the trouble of making specific distinctions around what to call lay people who are deputed to serve communion. These distinctions were made for a reason, which is explained in the document. If one mistakenly uses “EM”, due to force of habit, that would not be such a big deal…but to say (as New Ulm appears to be saying) that you don’t need to bother with it…well that is disobedience to the Church.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

And to give an answser per the lector (if you meant reader) this is the requirement of our catholic church in NoVA “The Lectors (I know we are Readers don’t jump alll over this and yes I understand the difference) are open to all parishioners who have received the Sacrament of Confirmation and have a love of Scripture, solid prayer lives, and the basic talent and desire to read the Word of God clearly and faithfully.” I was in the church for 3 three years (previously a calvinist) when I began to read after a 15 minute review and a ten page handout to read, ie when to genuflect and when to bow, what to do when etc.

 

[DallasCatholic]

And to give an answser per the lector (if you meant reader) this is the requirement of our catholic church in NoVA “The Lectors (I know we are Readers don’t jump alll over this and yes I understand the difference) are open to all parishioners who have received the Sacrament of Confirmation and have a love of Scripture, solid prayer lives, and the basic talent and desire to read the Word of God clearly and faithfully.” I was in the church for 3 three years (previously a calvinist) when I began to read after a 15 minute review and a ten page handout to read, ie when to genuflect and when to bow, what to do when etc.

Actually, in the Roman rite their is no longer an office called “lector”, so you are correct in your usage of that term. In the Eastern rites there is a difference between a lector and a reader.

 

[THurifer2]

That the Church is universal is not the same as saying it is (or should be) cookie cutter like identical in all ways in every place.

Who said anything about being cookie cutter like?

Universal church encompasses that the authority on faith and morals comes from ROME, not Winona Minnesota.

Publicly accusing the vatican for not being “down to earth” wreaks of one being anti magisterium.

The Fact is the Magisterium extended a loving hand towards the faithful by putting significant effort into communicating information for the faithful. THis information came in the form of an intstructional document called Redemptionis Sacramentum.

I guess some decide to become an antagonist towards the Vatican and choose to encourage disregard for such instructional documents. Along with this encouragement comes mockery of the vatican in the form of a statement regarding “down to earthedness”.

Such a lovely attitude to have towards the Magisterium that represents the barque of Peter, the pillar and foundation of truth…doncha think?

It seems to me as though some do not care much for the ROMAN part of our Catholicism. The ire that some have for the magesterium is palpable and I find it downright sickening.

 

[THurifer2]

Actually, in the Roman rite their is no longer an office called “lector”,.

All priests and deacons and some layment are insitituted as Lectors and Acolytes. There IS such a thing as Lector in the Roman church! I have a friend who is one.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Oh, OK that surely makes it right to be openly defiant of the Church.

What? is there somewhere in the creed or Eucharistic prayers that use the Term Extraordinary Ministers Of Holy Communion? How terrible to add such fluff! it just ruins mass!!

Um, Like me thinks thats why Arinze wanted to correct us and all. Golly what a not so down to earth dude!

Is this just any organization?

Um…well…hate to break it to you …but this aint IBM:blush:

youtube.com/watch?v=cgeLY7CL5IE

Golly you could have just abreviated your post by saying you dont care what rome thinks because they aren’t down to earth.

Actually Arzine is just one of many opinions out there in the Church. The Church on the human plane if you look runs just like every other human multi-layered bureaucracy. It comes with the territory and nothing can be done with it. It has all the normal institutional politics like every other bureaucracy. Unless you can remove human fallibility nothing can be done.

The “fluff” is that is it detracts from the spirituality. It is not a core part of the spirituality.

The people where the Church’s real pastoral ministry is towards can see needless trappings that distract from the day to day struggle to get through life. Fancier terms are seen through. It is always a struggle of each of us to find our own spirituality week after week. Sometimes it is harder with more glamor and show that is really not needed.

 

[NewUlm1976_2000]

Who said anything about being cookie cutter like?

Universal church encompasses that the authority on faith and morals comes from ROME, not Winona Minnesota.

Publicly accusing the vatican for not being “down to earth” wreaks of one being anti magisterium.

The Fact is the Magisterium extended a loving hand towards the faithful by putting significant effort into communicating information for the faithful. THis information came in the form of an intstructional document called Redemptionis Sacramentum.

I guess some decide to become an antagonist towards the Vatican and choose to encourage disregard for such instructional documents. Along with this encouragement comes mockery of the vatican in the form of a statement regarding “down to earthedness”.

Such a lovely attitude to have towards the Magisterium that represents the barque of Peter, the pillar and foundation of truth…doncha think?

It seems to me as though some do not care much for the ROMAN part of our Catholicism. The ire that some have for the magesterium is palpable and I find it downright sickening.

Rome realizes that the world is not Rome-Centric. The Church is so diverse to have a St Peter’s-like mass at all parts of the globe.

The Church is diverse with thousands of local traditions, theological interpretations. That does not make anything that comes from Rome invalid, but it is just one of many interpretations of our spiritual faith out in the world.

There is a danger of a “ivory tower” weakness by trying to have everything only Rome-centric. There is a heavy bias through a lens of only the day to day goings on only in Rome, which then presents a faith and spirituality that does not represent most of the world. That leads to a failure of leadership based on narrow interpretations which are unable to relate in any way with the outside world. It also leads to a type of stagnation which also reduces any way to relate to the outside world. All parts of the world are holy, Rome’s spirituality is no greater than the spirituality in other parts of the world.

This struggle to relate to the world has been going on since the formation of the Church and will always continue.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please do not get side-tracked, people. Stay on topic or please take any other discussion to new or existing threads.

 

[THurifer2]

There is a danger of a “ivory tower” weakness by trying to have everything only Rome-centric. There is a heavy bias through a lens of only the day to day goings on only in Rome, which then presents a faith and spirituality that does not represent most of the world.
This struggle to relate to the world has been going on since the formation of the Church and will always continue.

Where Peter is, There is the church

You do not belong to a democratic organization and your faith requires obedience to the church…at least thats what the church says

…take it or leave it…

personally I find no trouble in taking it…

pride usually leads people into leaving it.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually Arzine is just one of many opinions out there in the Church. The Church on the human plane if you look runs just like every other human multi-layered bureaucracy. It comes with the territory and nothing can be done with it. It has all the normal institutional politics like every other bureaucracy. Unless you can remove human fallibility nothing can be done.

The “fluff” is that is it detracts from the spirituality. It is not a core part of the spirituality.

The people where the Church’s real pastoral ministry is towards can see needless trappings that distract from the day to day struggle to get through life. Fancier terms are seen through. It is always a struggle of each of us to find our own spirituality week after week. Sometimes it is harder with more glamor and show that is really not needed.

First of all, Francis Cardinal Arinze is the Church’s point man on liturgy, that is to say, Divine Worship. He’s much like the old E F Hutton commercials (yes, I’m dating myself, but I was a little girl when those things aired): when E.F. Hutton speaks, people listen.

To merely dismiss his comments as opinion shows very little regard for the position of authority the good Cardinal holds. Furthermore, Arinze and the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger were chiefly responsible for the creation of Redemptionis Sacramentum. Therefore, if the Holy Father refers to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion under that term, are you also so quick to discount his authority?

The Church is not a democracy. Many mainline Protestant ecclesial communities vote on doctrine and who their leaders should be. It is not so with the Church. The Church is founded by Jesus, Himself, but, is under the authority of Peter and his successors. Therefore, Peter is the one who guides the Church. It is well under Peter’s authority to govern the liturgy and all of the other matters of the Church.

The problem is that over the course of 40 years, there has been so much laxity on both the part of the faithful and the clergy as to the appropriate roles exercised by the laity and their proper terminology. The problem lies with the fact that people are still being misguidedly ruled by the alleged “spirit” of Vatican II, where people will “read into” the documents as opposed to the concrete reality of the Second Vatican Council, whose documents are supposed to be read and followed.

 

[Lepanto]

The problem is that over the course of 40 years, there has been so much laxity on both the part of the faithful and the clergy as to the appropriate roles exercised by the laity and their proper terminology. The problem lies with the fact that people are still being misguidedly ruled by the alleged “spirit” of Vatican II, where people will “read into” the documents as opposed to the concrete reality of the Second Vatican Council, whose documents are supposed to be read and followed.

If anybody disagrees with BG on this they should read this first:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20031204_sacra-liturgia_en.html

 

[THurifer2]

If anybody disagrees with BG on this they should read this first:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20031204_sacra-liturgia_en.html

Sorry leapnto…the document in the Link is from the vatican website…I am certain that some here wouldn’t dare read a bunch of “fluff” from the out of touch, distant and all around not so “down to Earth” magisterium. Perhaps you could disguise the link as somthing from Joan Chittiser or Biship Gumbleton…that might get the “we are church” and the kumbaya types to read the link.

I just realized there are two types of sedevacantists… The old fashioned ones who think there is a vacant Chair of Peter and those who think the Chair of Peter is a Lazy boy recliner that is everyones home.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is closed. Thank you all.