European Catholicism

[Cat]

I attended a Christian and Missionary Alliance church (Protestant) for ten years (1980s).

This denomination has the largest percentage per membership of missionaries of any Protestant denomination.

A sizeable number of those missionaries are in European countries; .e.g, Germany, France, Spain, etc.

Is it possible–God have mercy!–that one reason for the decline of Catholicism and the rise of Islam in Europe is due to the zealous missionary campaigns of the evangelical Protestants? Is it possible that these evangelical denominations don’t see the damage that they are doing by dividing the Christians into factions in Europe and making them more vulnerable to the influence of Islam?

Evangelical Christianity appears to be an “easier” religion than Catholicism. No “obligations.” No Confession–all sins are forgiven past present and future. No worry about making it to heaven–your prayer to accept Jesus Christ and your continuance in doing “good works” is your ticket to heaven.

But in reality, evangelical Christianity is a hard, legalistic religion. I believe that the recidivism rate among evangelicals is rather large, although I can only base that on my own personal experiences over the years. I know so many people who started out as strong evangelical Christians, and now are living a churchless, religionless life. Some of these people are living in blatant sin, and that means, of course, that they are NOT welcome in any evangelical church (in spite of the “Sinners Welcome!” signs that you see at some evangelical churches).

I can see how Europeans would initially be attracted to evangelical Christianity because of the good music, dynamic speakers, and “easiness” of the decision to accept Christ. But I can also see how they would fall away as they learn more about the legalistic “requirements” to be accepted in evangelical churches.

And then they have nothing–they are no longer evangelical and they have rejected Catholicism. No wonder they fall for the easy path of Islam.

Again, I pray, God have mercy! I think that evangelicals and Catholics should sit down together and discuss the harm that is happening in Europe as a result of Protestant missionaries, and I think that they ought to mutually decide that Protestant missionaries should leave Europe and allow the Catholic missionaries to do their work unhindered by Protestant missionaries. For fifteen centuries, Europe was Catholic and became great. Why can’t it happen again?

Are my musings totally off? Or is there anything correct in what I have posted here?

 

[anon52328184]

i think Cat makes many good points!! the same thing is happening in mexico that once was predominantly catholic. the evangelical missionaries as well as mormon missionaries have gone to mexico and are making a big impact there.
i agree that this divisiveness makes it easier for islam to have a foothold.
if islam gets a foothold in mexico like it has in europe, we are in big trouble.
i have more confidence in the mexican people in spite of all the anti-mexican feelings in the u.s. not to fall under the spell of islam.

once they feel they have conquered europe, they will no doubt move on to latin america or canada.

europe WAS great when it was catholic.

so not only do we have to worry about the evangelical protestants, but also the mormons and jehovan’s witness that are also growing religions around the world.

 

[Cinette]

Hello someone told me of this thread and I have just got here but have not had the chance to read much.

I am sure I am going to find this thread very interesting but would like to make a suggestion. Would it not be a good idea if at the beginning of each posting the poster were to state the European Country from which they are posting?

Each country has a different situation and it would be most interesting and instructive to hear what each has to say about the particular country.

Thank you
Looking forward to joining in here. As for me I am from Africa but know a little about Portugal and have some opinions about the situation there.

Cheers
:tiphat:

 

[Cinette]

I AM NOT BORN IN EUROPE BUT NOW LIVE IN SOUTH AFRICA.

I AM OF FRENCH ORIGIN AND MY HUSBAND IS PORTUGUESE

After turning my back on my Faith for 27 years I returned to the Catholic Church and for the past 20 years I have fallen in love with my Faith and it is what gives me the greatest pleasure.

My husband’s parents were a product of Portugal’s Salazar - a fascist dictator who ruled Portugal and the conlonies with a terrible force. What was evident was that the Catholic Church did not censure (at least visibly) the State. In fact they appeared to be in league with the State - big buddies. There was the Concordata a contract between the Church and the State which ruled people’s lives. This had a great influence on lovers of democracy and many people no longer trusted the Church because the Church appeared to side with the State.

That was a big thing. The only people who appeared to be religious were the upper class and these often just to promote themselves. This was an “in” for them to get good jobs and also get into “society”. There were also the poor who genuinely loved God and hoped things would change.

But the great majority wouldn’t have anything to do with the Church as they felt the Church had betrayed them.

We live in an age where it is not cool to have many children. also education is expensive - life is expensive. So abortion has become an option.

I heard this story - There was an Imam who said to an Anglican Minister that by the end of this century all the great cathedrals would become mosques. When the Minister asked why the response was, “Because we have children and you don’t”

Well that is true. The last time I looked the stats showed that in Italy they have 1.2 children per couple. In other words, they are not reproducing the population!!!

My husband was an athiest like his parents. when I came back to the Church my husband would sometimes accompany me and then later he would always accompany me. On a visit to Portugal we went to Mass one Sunday and as we left the Church my husband remarked that the Church in Portugal was foscilised!!! What a tragedy.

The Portuguese people need God and His Church. We ALL need God and the Church.

We need to pray for a renewal of Faith in all the countries of Europe.

 

[Cinette]

European liberalism is perhaps the most self-destructive in the world. Since the end of the Cold War, Western Europe has gone from complacency to apathy to self-annihilation. America will probably have to bail it out, again, someday. I truly believe Islam will conquer it from within.

Don’t forget Jesus promised He would not abandon us! However we have to DO something: pray, evangelize and NEVER GIVE UP

We cannot lay back and let others take our place!!!

OH NO!!

:banghead: :banghead:

 

[Cinette]

I really think you know exactly what I am talking about Thistle. When I say Christianity, I will generally mean Catholicism as I don’t really consider every sect that claims to be Christian to actually be so.

Yes this particular poll focused on mass attendance which like it or not is about the best way to determine whether or not catholicism is thriving or declining since Mass attendance is intrinsically tied to the faith unlike in many other Christian communities. Also this particular poll included a survey on Protestant attendance at services which was pretty close to being equally bad. But since I really don’t worry too much about what the separated brethren do in their communities, I didn’t feel the need to include those results as well. As far as I am concerned they chose to cut themselves off from the Church. No one made them do it.

I agree, I would like to see a more recent poll also and see if the decline has continued or been reversed. However since the Holy Father himself has directly referred to this problem, I would doubt very much that the trend has been reversed…

I think we must be happy to have people of ALL Christian denominations because from there we can build Christian Unity.

What we don’t want is non Christians to take over Europe!

:crying: :crying: :whacky:

 

[Kaninchen]

I think we must be happy to have people of ALL Christian denominations because from there we can build Christian Unity.

What we don’t want is non Christians to take over Europe!

:crying: :crying: :whacky:

Muslims will take over about the same time as the United States becomes part of Greater Mexico.

 

[Cinette]

Muslims will take over about the same time as the United States becomes part of Greater Mexico.

Hello!

Are you Muslim?

 

[Kaninchen]

Hello!

Are you Muslim?

I’m a Jewess. One that’s tired of the ‘shock, alarm, naughty, naughty Muslims are breeding for victory’ nonsense.

 

[Cinette]

I’m a Jewess. One that’s tired of the ‘shock, alarm, naughty, naughty Muslims are breeding for victory’ nonsense.

Well dear I don’t think that we should sit back and feel “oh well, what can we do - its going to happen anyway - So be it!”

No way, but then you are not a Christian. We do look at Jews as “related” to us and a part of us in a way. I do not hate Muslims but I think there is danger as there are Islamists and Jihadists who fuel terrorism. There is no religious tolerance in predominently Muslim countries. They have been known to destroy Churches and even put Christians to death (Egypt and Saudi and Iraq and Indonesia and the Phillippines and and and…

How can you call that nonsense is beyond me! What role do you play in all this anyway?





:ehh:

 

[Kaninchen]

Well dear I don’t think that we should sit back and feel “oh well, what can we do - its going to happen anyway - So be it!”

No way, but then you are not a Christian. We do look at Jews as “related” to us and a part of us in a way. I do not hate Muslims but I think there is danger as there are Islamists and Jihadists who fuel terrorism. There is no religious tolerance in predominently Muslim countries. They have been known to destroy Churches and even put Christians to death (Egypt and Saudi and Iraq and Indonesia and the Phillippines and and and…

How can you call that nonsense is beyond me! What role do you play in all this anyway?





:ehh:

Muslims have merely taken our place as the ‘feared Other’ - it’s no longer fashionable or socially acceptable to talk about things like ‘the Jewish World Conspiracy’ and the need for a ‘solution to the Jewish problem’, so now it’s ‘Muslim peril’.

Somehow, for example, the UK’s 1.6 million Muslims (out of 60 million population) are about to take over - ignoring the fact, for instance, that nearly 1 million Eastern Europeans (largely Catholic Poles - a group, incidentally, with a serious history of anti-Semitism) have moved to the UK in the last decade.

So, “sit back” and let what happen? Sit back and watch Muslims turn into the next group for which there needs to be a ‘final solution’, perhaps?

Oh dear, ‘dear’.

 

[KingAlfred]

Muslims will take over about the same time as the United States becomes part of Greater Mexico.

True enough. The upside of that is that Mexico is Catholic.

 

[Cinette]

Muslims have merely taken our place as the ‘feared Other’ - it’s no longer fashionable or socially acceptable to talk about things likethat is a conspiracy theory not to be believed by sane people ‘the Jewish World Conspiracy’ and the need for a ‘solution to the Jewish problem’, so now it’s ‘Muslim peril’.This peril is very real - they have extreme “beliefs”

Somehow, for example, the UK’s 1.6 million Muslims (out of 60 million population) are about to take over - ignoring the fact, for instance, that nearly 1 million Eastern Europeans (largely Catholic Poles - a group, incidentally, with a serious history of anti-Semitism) Any Catholic who expounds prejudice and racism is committing a serious sin and this should be addressed. Just because a group may be considered “devout” doesn’t mean they can afford the “luxury” of prejudice and bias. Many of these people are “culturally Catholic” and this means they probably do not KNOW their Faithhave moved to the UK in the last decade.

So, “sit back” and let what happen? Sit back and watch Muslims turn into the next group for which there needs to be a ‘final solution’, perhaps?I believe that you are somewhat cynical. Again, my question, you did not answer it

Oh dear, ‘dear’.

I would like to understand you

:ehh:

:ehh:

:ehh:

 

[manualman]

On the other hand, has it REALLY ever been all that much better? Sure, the cultural norms have changed and it is no longer EXPECTED that you attend mass (in the US or Europe, take your pick). But was the percentage of people 300 years ago who both attended mass and SINCERELY approached their faith as an opening of themselves to Christ with the desire to be transformed by Him any better than today? Perhaps not. Certainly we have fewer pretenders today than before. That’s not all a bad thing.

As for Islam, I think we are overestimating it a bit. Much like the old Soviet Union, it looked huge, monolithic and insatiable. In reality, it was a rickety, rotten corpse underneath the illusion of strength. Islam is, in many ways, similar to the Soviets. MOST muslims worldwide are at least as lukewarm about the teachings of their faith as the bulk of christians are. Like lukewarm christians, they don’t TALK about their religion so you don’t hear them as much as you do the militant ones.

 

[anon52328184]

to ignore the growth of islam around the world and how they are changing europe is to be like an ostrich hiding your head in the sand.

i find the poster who is tired of hearing of the fear of islam to be very naive.

in america we now are having the honor killings where fathers or fathers and brothers are killing daughters and sisters because they think they have somehow shamed the family.

if it has happened here, i am sure it has happened in europe already also.

they would like nothing better than for every government to be under islam
and for all of us to live under sharia law.

as long as the faith in europe is lukewarm to say the least, the islamic faith will continue to have more influence on society.

she calls herself a jewess. she must be a jewess who does not love israel
because every other week the muslims in some part of the middle east are calling for the destruction of israel.

 

[anon52328184]

True enough. The upside of that is that Mexico is Catholic.

mexico is still majority catholic, however, the evangelical protestant religions are growing there as well as mormonism and jehovah’s witnesses.

 

[Kaninchen]

As for Islam, I think we are overestimating it a bit.

Not just a bit, I’d suggest.

 

[Kaninchen]

I would like to understand you

:ehh:

:ehh:

:ehh:

I doubt it.

 

[Jacafamala]

Be fruitful and multiply there, Europe. What’s the deal?

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

I think the extreme right in America is vehemently anti-European and uses hugely exagerated tales of secularisation an Islamification as an excuse to fantasize about US domination of Europe. Much of this is fueled by the RW media but there is also a grass roots antipathy of all things Old World.

Well this European is giving such sentiment nothing but the utter conempt and digust it deserves. Rascist, supremacist, spiteful and aggressive bile that it is. The most distressing thing about reading such vile lies is the fact that such rhetoric often precedes direct action.

May God have mercy on the hate-filled souls that spout such slanderous garbage.