European Catholicism

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Cinette said:
Thank you for bringing the conversation back to European Catholicism Deborah!
:bounce: :love:
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And she should be thanked, as we were getting off topic. Possibly it would not be off topic to say that, upon reading some of these posts, I am beginning to think some posters do not understand the “right wing” in America, or are thinking about an infinitesimally small, and largely voiceless, group, and projecting their attributes to a wider group than is appropriate.

I think that might be “on topic”, because I am not sure some have understood the concerns some American Catholics have about the Church in Europe. I cannot attest to the percentages of those who are truly faithful to the Church, but some of the numbers cited are dismal. (I grant that Catholics in America only look good by comparison) But those Americans who care about it do not, I think, think of it as a way to condemn Europeans, but to express puzzlement and concern.

If the numbers are correct, the question, it seems to me, is “why?” Why have Europeans largely abandoned religion? It’s not only Catholicism, it seems to be all Christian religions. I expect some would say it is because of modernity. As people become more sophisticated, they eschew religion, they might say. But unless one assumes Americans are simply less sophisticated, that isn’t an adequate explanation, because there are big differences between America and Europe when it comes to religious practice, and very little when it comes to education. And what would explain the lack of religiosity among working class Europeans, when working-class people in the U.S. are pretty generally religious?

Furthermore, some of my European ancestors were poorly educated, but some were well educated. Yet, their religious adherence was no different.

One could consider the seeming fact that Marxism has had much more influence in Europe than it ever had here. One could consider the anti-religious nature of the Enlightenment. Perhaps America’s character was already “set in its course”, and perhaps anti-religion had not yet reached later immigrants and took awhile longer to pervade European societies, perhaps after most immigrants to America had already left.

I have read it speculated that World War I had a profound influence on European thinking. I have read that European societies went from the height of self-confidence to the depths of self-doubt due to that conflict. WWI spawned some very bizarre thinking on the part of some in Europe during the interwar period. Doubtless WWII exposed some very bad things about human beings, and not just in Germany; things from which Americans were essentially spared.

Is it so simple as a “why do bad things happen to good people” thing, causing doubt in Providence to become pervasive?
 
ridgerunner brings up many good points. america fought world war I and world war II from a distance. it was not fought on our land. wheras, in europe, hitler’s army effected almost every country as well as africa. we, as americans, can never understand the impact of those two wars on those generations and the generations to follow.

what must it have been like to live under stalin, or lenin, or hitler and see millions of people exterminated. then there was mussolini also. i think each country has its own history too of what it went through during the war and afterwards.

look what is happening in japan now. it has the highest suicide rate in the world. i don’t know what the statistics are over there, but i doubt if there are many catholics. they were under their emperor for decades.

the people in europe and other parts of the world have definitely had their faith tested through changing dictatorships, communism, marxism, socialism, so there are probably many factors as to why church attendance fell off.
 
Ridgerunner said:
And she should be thanked, as we were getting off topic. Possibly it would not be off topic to say that, upon reading some of these posts, I am beginning to think some posters do not understand the “right wing” in America, or are thinking about an infinitesimally small, and largely voiceless, group, and projecting their attributes to a wider group than is appropriate.

I think that might be “on topic”, because I am not sure some have understood the concerns some American Catholics have about the Church in Europe. I cannot attest to the percentages of those who are truly faithful to the Church, but some of the numbers cited are dismal. (I grant that Catholics in America only look good by comparison) But those Americans who care about it do not, I think, think of it as a way to condemn Europeans, but to express puzzlement and concern.

If the numbers are correct, the question, it seems to me, is “why?” Why have Europeans largely abandoned religion? It’s not only Catholicism, it seems to be all Christian religions. I expect some would say it is because of modernity. As people become more sophisticated, they eschew religion, they might say. But unless one assumes Americans are simply less sophisticated, that isn’t an adequate explanation, because there are big differences between America and Europe when it comes to religious practice, and very little when it comes to education. And what would explain the lack of religiosity among working class Europeans, when working-class people in the U.S. are pretty generally religious?

Furthermore, some of my European ancestors were poorly educated, but some were well educated. Yet, their religious adherence was no different.

One could consider the seeming fact that Marxism has had much more influence in Europe than it ever had here. One could consider the anti-religious nature of the Enlightenment. Perhaps America’s character was already “set in its course”, and perhaps anti-religion had not yet reached later immigrants and took awhile longer to pervade European societies, perhaps after most immigrants to America had already left.

I have read it speculated that World War I had a profound influence on European thinking. I have read that European societies went from the height of self-confidence to the depths of self-doubt due to that conflict. WWI spawned some very bizarre thinking on the part of some in Europe during the interwar period. Doubtless WWII exposed some very bad things about human beings, and not just in Germany; things from which Americans were essentially spared.

Is it so simple as a “why do bad things happen to good people” thing, causing doubt in Providence to become pervasive?
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I enjoyed your post. Very much appreciated.

While I am more pro European for different reasons and do not like the plastic/hollywood/hype/media of American society I have to acknowledge that America is a melting pot of different races and people of diverse origins - it is also wonderful to observe that the Catholic Church has grown tremendously in America - a wonderful renewal is taking place. One sees on EWTN the many religious vocations - convents full - seminaries full. Sure there is more work to be done but we have to take our hat off to the American people that many have held on to their Faith.

I would like to see a renewal take place in Europe too.

:clapping:

:yup:

:love:

👋
 
Ridgerunner said:
Only if you assume the parent is senile or otherwise incapable, which is not what I said or meant, but which you nevertheless assumed. Does that thought occur to you from time to time?
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Nah, you were just being patronizing.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Only if you assume the parent is senile or otherwise incapable, which is not what I said or meant, but which you nevertheless assumed. Does that thought occur to you from time to time?
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Nah, you were just being patronizing, no caveats, no assumptions, just plain patronizing.

You know your market well.
 
Kaninchen said:
Ridgerunner is quite capable of looking after himself without you getting in the way.
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:bigyikes: As Christians we are told to love everybody. :love:

but you make it extremely difficult :mad: :bigyikes:

Really, I am very interested why you have come to this forum. What are your intentions? What have you got to contribute? What can we learn from except that you make people :mad:

You may be popular among your friends but … :eek:
 
Cinette said:
:bigyikes: As Christians we are told to love everybody. :love:

but you make it extremely difficult :mad: :bigyikes:

Really, I am very interested why you have come to this forum. What are your intentions? What have you got to contribute? What can we learn from except that you make people :mad:

You may be popular among your friends but … :eek:
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I think you might, with advantage, read the rules of posting at CAF - there are reasons why I don’t respond ‘personally’ to your ‘personal’ posts - they can be strictly applied.
 
so does your signature describe you? are you idle? bored?

you have not made one comment about european catholicism.

you only make cruel comments about other posters.

we are discussing european catholicism and why catholicism has declined in europe.
 
deborahaz said:
so does your signature describe you? are you idle? bored?

you have not made one comment about european catholicism.

you only make cruel comments about other posters.

we are discussing european catholicism and why catholicism has declined in europe.
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A comment was made about Islam taking over Europe, I responded to that.

Interestingly, because I refuse to agree with that idea (and the sheer naughtiness of Muslims) your post (#55) is interesting in the context of your mention here of ‘cruel comments’. Perhaps you should consider your own position - and read the rules.

We both might consider the use of the ‘ignore’ feature, from now on.
 
deborahaz said:
so does your signature describe you? are you idle? bored?

you have not made one comment about european catholicism.

you only make cruel comments about other posters.

we are discussing european catholicism and why catholicism has declined in europe.
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A comment was made about Islam taking over Europe, I responded to that.

Interestingly, because I refuse to agree with that idea (and the sheer naughtiness of Muslims) you responded post #55. This particular post is interesting in the context of your mention here of ‘cruel comments’. Perhaps you should consider your own position - and read the rules.

We both might consider the use of the ‘ignore’ feature, from now on.
 
The problem is that Europeans are no longer dedicated Christians, and have been ‘numbed’, ideologically speaking, by decades of Socialism. Meanwhile, Europe is being flooded by Muslims, and growing dangerously fanatical second-generations of them. The American fear that Europe will somday cave in to Islam is logical. It might be simplistic, but it’s understandable.
 
deborahaz said:
to ignore the growth of islam around the world and how they are changing europe is to be like an ostrich hiding your head in the sand.

i find the poster who is tired of hearing of the fear of islam to be very naive.

in america we now are having the honor killings where fathers or fathers and brothers are killing daughters and sisters because they think they have somehow shamed the family.

if it has happened here, i am sure it has happened in europe already also.

they would like nothing better than for every government to be under islam
and for all of us to live under sharia law.

as long as the faith in europe is lukewarm to say the least, the islamic faith will continue to have more influence on society.

she calls herself a jewess. she must be a jewess who does not love israel
because every other week the muslims in some part of the middle east are calling for the destruction of israel.
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yes, here is my post #55. what part of this post do you find fault with?
 
KingAlfred said:
The problem is that Europeans are no longer dedicated Christians, and have been ‘numbed’, ideologically speaking, by decades of Socialism. Meanwhile, Europe is being flooded by Muslims, and growing dangerously fanatical second-generations of them. The American fear that Europe will somday cave in to Islam is logical. It might be simplistic, but it’s understandable.
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i think king alfred makes a wise observation.
 
In addition to my earlier post regarding Catholicism in Portugal I would also like to expand on that.

Salazar, whose dictatorship lasted 48 years I think was Catholic and a “devout” one at that they say. His vision appeared to be to avoid progress and have village life as an ideal. The lack of progress favoured the existence of monopolies since competitors did not spring up. The result was a few rich and a lot of poor people, beggars and prostitution. Literacy was not for all.

Many people wanted nothing to do with a Church that appeared to support the Salazar regime. There were clergy and religious who fought underground but the official Church did not censure Salazar.

No wonder people no longer trusted the Church.

I love the Church but one has to acknowledge that the Church has much to answer for in that part of the world.

I believe this must have been the case also in spain under the Franco regime and what about Italy?

It seems that we do not have Spanish, Portuguese and Italian collaborators on this forum??!!
:confused: :nope: 👋
 
KingAlfred said:
The problem is that Europeans are no longer dedicated Christians, and have been ‘numbed’, ideologically speaking, by decades of Socialism. Meanwhile, Europe is being flooded by Muslims, and growing dangerously fanatical second-generations of them. The American fear that Europe will somday cave in to Islam is logical. It might be simplistic, but it’s understandable.
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There is one serious problem with your analysis.

You need to establish that there is, actually, a flood of Muslims and, not only that, but that it constitutes some kind of threat to the hundred, upon hundred, upon hundred of millions of non-Muslim Europeans.

It’s not just a question of saying it, it’s a question of establishing it.
 
i believe that has been established if you speak to non-muslims in france, england and holland to be specific.

there could be other countries, but these 3 come to mind because of recent news stories over the last several years.

what do you have to say about european catholicism?
 
Cinette said:
In addition to my earlier post regarding Catholicism in Portugal I would also like to expand on that.

Salazar, whose dictatorship lasted 48 years I think was Catholic and a “devout” one at that they say. His vision appeared to be to avoid progress and have village life as an ideal. The lack of progress favoured the existence of monopolies since competitors did not spring up. The result was a few rich and a lot of poor people, beggars and prostitution. Literacy was not for all.

Many people wanted nothing to do with a Church that appeared to support the Salazar regime. There were clergy and religious who fought underground but the official Church did not censure Salazar.

No wonder people no longer trusted the Church.

I love the Church but one has to acknowledge that the Church has much to answer for in that part of the world.

I believe this must have been the case also in spain under the Franco regime and what about Italy?

It seems that we do not have Spanish, Portuguese and Italian collaborators on this forum??!!
:confused: :nope: 👋

I believe that Our Lady of Fatima gave special recognition to Portugal as a country of devout faith. I think you will find that Portugal and the Portuguese people still have strong very strong Catholic faith. I am Portuguese. I have travelled and seen. JPII was almost killed at Fatima. My Portuguese brother-in-law gets goosebumps when he speaks of it. Many people there are immersed in Catholicism, it is not questioned, it is a given.
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