European Catholicism

[bobzills]

There is one serious problem with your analysis.

You need to establish that there is, actually, a flood of Muslims and, not only that, but that it constitutes some kind of threat to the hundred, upon hundred, upon hundred of millions of non-Muslim Europeans.

It’s not just a question of saying it, it’s a question of establishing it.

I think it has already been shown that there has been a rather large increae in the number of Muslims in Europe over the last 50 years or so. I would not say that they constitute a threat, as I hope that there might be a way to promote peaceful relations between Christians and Muslims.

 

[WH1988]

I have read what Cinette said about Portuguese Catholicism, and I must say I completely disagree with her perspective.

First of all, she accuses Salazar of proposing a rural life style. I, as a Catholic and as an economics student very interested on the issue of macroeconomics, I wonder if that is some kind of sin? That would be a long discussion, but I believe that the only sustainable path for Portugal, and for many european countries, to follow is that of ruralization. I am avaiable to discuss these issues, but its better to do it by private message or email.

Secondly, you blame Salazar for being guilt of the state of Portuguese Catholicism. First of all, we have to know what, in your opinion, is wrong on the life of most Portuguese Catholics. Probably your answer is quite quite diferent from most users of this forum. I read your husband called the Portuguese Masses “monolithic” or something like that - I guess that your husband likes clown masses, or teen masses, or protestant ‘masses’, and you seem to agree with him.

You have defended a kind of ‘Christian union’. With all due respect, but I believe that you don’t know what ecumenism is - ecumenism is to bring back all the christians to the Catholic Church - it is NOT creating a new Christian church.

Your opinions seem to be those of a radical liberal catholic.

My vision on Portuguese Catholicism is, thus, very different.

I believe the worst problem with Portuguese Catholicism is socialism. I’ll explain. Portuguese Catholicism became very much associated with the Socialist Party. This is a big paradox, as the Socialist Party has traditionally a masonic leadership and an heterodox catholic base.

Thus, I believe this paradox penetrated the sphere of the church. No Portuguese catholic is able to make a statement about it’s faith - it could be disrespectful to someone. Almost all Portuguese declare to be Catholics, but most completely ignore all aspects of the faith, make fun of the Church morality, and even insult the Holy Father frequently.

The clergy is clearly heterodox, but they won’t organize clown masses. It’s the socialist mid-way. They dispise everything and everyone that tries to live it’s religion seriously, and sermons are usually about “people who are pharisees because they impose their points of view on others, and they judge others. We can’t do that, otherwise we will end up being fanaticals and pharisees.”

 

[DAPDN]

Yes, I don’t want to get personal or something like that, but in fact, with all due respect, we can say that Portugal is flooding with “catholics” like Cinette. In fact, these so-called liberal “catholics” represent the majority of the Catholic laity and clergy here in Portugal, with many not even realising that the heterodoxy, the liberal or relativist theories they support for the Catholic Faith, gets them more closer to some protestant sect than to the Catholic Church.

Adding to all of this, like WH1988 said, portuguese “catholics” tend not to care about what the Church teaches, what Rome embraces and what Rome rejects, and they usually commit a very typical kind of action, which can be described by claiming they are Catholic, and yet afirming that they do not agree with a lot of things that the Church teaches and says to the faithful, and specially, that the Pope and the Roman Curia are old-fashioned and can’t expect to be accepted by the faithful, while preaching what the Church has always teached along thousands of years.

For example, in Portugal, a matter like chastity or contraception is considered controversial amongst Catholics; it shouldn’t be like that. And, unfortenately, the large majority which claim to be Catholic and then defend that the Church should allow contraception and female priests, also win on discussions like these, passing a wrong information to non-believers, by their awfull example. Of course, as you may imagine, people do get much more atracted to such an easy way to live your spirituality, than to what the Holy Mother Church originally preaches. Also, this has a lot to do, too, with the complete disorder that in many parishes, the liturgy of the Mass is in.

It is a very complex subject, and we have to deal with it every day. Some awfull, heterodox clergy, no respect at all for the liturgy, a lot of false prophets preaching wrong doctrine and showing bad examples - these are some of the things we have to face daily, here in Portugal, amongst our brothers, which I thought it should be highlighted.

 

[Ridgerunner]

DPDH, ED RAND, WH1988

You seem to be saying different things, though I’m not sure of it. Are you saying that the majority of Portugese are Catholic, formally, but lax and heterodox in their practice? Or are you saying only some are that way, but stand out?

Are you saying that’s true in some places (e.g. the cities) but not in all places?

I do not doubt that each of you has a firm experiential basis for what you’re saying, but it’s just not pulling together. We have a lot of heterodox Catholics in the U.S. too. Perhaps something like 50%, but it’s on a continuum, from those who are very minimally so to those who are, in effect, Protestants in all but name.

I’m not getting a clear picture, and I would appreciate further exposition.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I think it has already been shown that there has been a rather large increae in the number of Muslims in Europe over the last 50 years or so. I would not say that they constitute a threat, as I hope that there might be a way to promote peaceful relations between Christians and Muslims.

I have read that in France, Muslims make up 10% of the population and the majority of school children. One in better command of the statistics is invited to correct me if I am wrong.

But in the U.S. at least, 10% of the electorate is sufficient to affect policy significantly. And, if the majority of school age children are Muslim, it is necessarily true that in time Muslims will rule France. From a Christian perspective, that’s not good, as Muslim rule in most countries means dhimmitude for everybody else.

 

[DAPDN]

Ridgerunner,

What if I tell you that even at the most orthodox parish of Lisbon (in my personal opinion) you can’t find a single priest in a confessionary to hear your confession?

In fact, the only place I trust for having my weekly confession is at Opus Dei’s Oratorium of S. Josemaria Escriva, in Lisbon. And to be honest, I think they are one of the very few Catholic institutions here in Portugal which you can trust in, being a good, true Catholic, because their orthodoxy and loyalty to the Church and her teachings is undisputable and well-known.

 

[WH1988]

DPDH, ED RAND, WH1988

You seem to be saying different things, though I’m not sure of it. Are you saying that the majority of Portugese are Catholic, formally, but lax and heterodox in their practice? Or are you saying only some are that way, but stand out?

It’s almost impossible to find an orthodox community, except Opus Dei. Most parishes don’t offer confessions, or, if they do, only at stupid hours like 9-10am, where everybody is working, and they don’t even publicize it. I think I never heard an homily about the importance of confession.

That’s the big paradox. There are maaaany Portuguese Catholics, but just a tiny tiny tiny, but really tiny minority really follows the Church commandements. We are usually seen as radical catholics. Usually they call us “Opus Dei Catholics”, and treat us like if we are some kind of sect, although I have no affilliation with Opus Dei.

Are you saying that’s true in some places (e.g. the cities) but not in all places?

No, it happens everywhere. But some of these socialist Catholics tend to disdain of rural life, while I propose it as the most healthy (both physically and moraly) environment to live.

 

[eelpis]

Europe is Christian and it will be for at least another 1000 years, I hope.

Is America Christian?
Since the US was created by freemasons, I just wonder how you’re doing.

 

[Kaninchen]

I think it has already been shown that there has been a rather large increae in the number of Muslims in Europe over the last 50 years or so. I would not say that they constitute a threat, as I hope that there might be a way to promote peaceful relations between Christians and Muslims.

There has been a large proportionate increase - in the sense that going from 1 to 2 is a large proportionate increase. The question is whether the increase is looked on with a sense of proportion.

 

[bobzills]

What if I tell you that even at the most orthodox parish of Lisbon (in my personal opinion) you can’t find a single priest in a confessionary to hear your confession?.

At a Mass that I attended, the priest said that everyone could receive Holy Communion. So if everyone is allowed to receive Holy Communion, why would there be a need for Confession?

 

[eelpis]

At a Mass that I attended, the priest said that everyone could receive Holy Communion. So if everyone is allowed to receive Holy Communion, why would there be a need for Confession?

At least, in Europe politicians who think that abortion is OK they don’t recieve communion.

 

[DAPDN]

As funny as it may seems, bobzills, you and I both know that it should be the other way around. And believe me, arround here, we’re getting sick and tired of all these abuses. Honestly, I pray that our Holy Father Benedict XVI may come to Portugal very soon, so that he may restore order, loyalty and orthodoxy in the portuguese clergy. In fact, I’d like to invite all the pious, devout Catholic readers of this thread to do so, for that is the only (and most powerful!) weapon we trully have.

 

[anon52328184]

the picture that you are painting of the Catholic church in portugal is very sad. do a majority of the people want to see the Catholic church restored to its fullness or are they content to leave it as it is?

i will definitely pray that the Pope will visit Portugal in the near future. surely he is aware of the state of the Catholic church there.

it must be very hard for the faithful Catholic that wants to live a full Catholic life.

i lived in spain while franco was in power, but i know very little about portugal or the history of portugal during the last 80 years.

 

[DAPDN]

Well, if the majority of the portuguese Catholic faithful have no kind of respect or obedience to what the Holy Mother Church teaches, then that very majority will, unfortenately, prefer to leave things how they are, or even try to make them even worse! I hear constant appeals for reforms in the Church from a lot of so-called “liberal catholics”, so, as you can see, the situation is pretty bad arround here.

Let’s hope our prayers are answered (they are always, in some way!) and thank you so much for being so generous to your good, devout and orthodox Catholic brothers and sisters from Portugal. I take this opportunity to launch a second appeal for prayers for this particular intention to all the pious, devout Catholic faithful who may read this thread.

Cum Petrum, ad Iesum per Maria!

 

[anon52328184]

it makes you wonder why they want to still remain Catholic. are there many protestant churches in Portugal today. i don’t know anything about the current state of Portugal. i don’t know what kind of government it has.
i know the Spain has a King again, but i don’t think Portugal does.

it seems like the majority want to mold the Catholic church to fit their needs rather than conform to the Catholic church and its teachings.

 

[Cinette]

I believe that Our Lady of Fatima gave special recognition to Portugal as a country of devout faith. I think you will find that Portugal and the Portuguese people still have strong very strong Catholic faith. I am Portuguese. I have travelled and seen. JPII was almost killed at Fatima. My Portuguese brother-in-law gets goosebumps when he speaks of it. Many people there are immersed in Catholicism, it is not questioned, it is a given.

I am not Portuguese but I LOVE the Portuguese. I am happy to read your post. My husband converted 3 years ago but when we went to Mass in Cascais the first time (na baixa) his comment was “Aqui a Igresa esta fossilizada”.

I went to Mass in Porto a few years ago and the place was FULL and they had one Mass after the other.

However, most of my Portuguese friends, in fact ALL are secular.

Do you agree with my comments regarding Salazar?

I am so pleased Our Lady chose Fatima!

 

[Cinette]

Thank you for your remarks which are both correct and also not very accurate in parts:

I have read what Cinette said about Portuguese Catholicism, and I must say I completely disagree with her perspective.

First of all, she accuses Salazar (He was a Fascist Dictator who caused a lot of suffering to the masses in Portugal and stunted growthof proposing a rural life style.Just a small example, when the Govt built “Aldeia do Limpopo” to import peasants from Portugal they did not install running water - there was a fountain from which the “meninas” were supposed to fetch water - that was very picturesque as long as one didn’t have to fetch the water oneself! I, as a Catholic and as an economics student very interested on the issue of macroeconomics, I wonder if that is some kind of sin? absolutely not but I am talking of a different generationThat would be a long discussion, but I believe that the only sustainable path for Portugal, and for many european countries, to follow is that of ruralization.it must be 21st Century ruralization and not 18th Century! I am avaiable to discuss these issues, but its better to do it by private message or email.That is good but what we want to do here is to discuss so that others can also share their opinions and experiences so that we can learn

Secondly, you blame Salazar for being guilt of the state of Portuguese Catholicism. First of all, we have to know what, in your opinion, is wrong on the life of most Portuguese Catholics.The point is that the Church was no role model because of its alliance with the Fascist Government Probably your answer is quite quite diferent from most users of this forum. I read your husband called the Portuguese Masses “monolithic” or something like that - I guess that your husband likes clown masses, or teen masses, or protestant ‘masses’, and you seem to agree with him.When my husband first attended Mass in Portugal with me he noticed that first of all the attendance was poor and all old people, very, very old people with mainly women and some children. so as we left the Church he remarked that the Church in Portugal was “fossilized”

You have defended a kind of ‘Christian union’. With all due respect, but I believe that you don’t know what ecumenism is - ecumenism is to bring back all the christians to the Catholic Church - it is NOT creating a new Christian church.You missunderstood me - I do agree with your definition

Your opinions seem to be those of a radical liberal catholic.I was that but am becoming more and more orthodox

My vision on Portuguese Catholicism is, thus, very different.

I believe the worst problem with Portuguese Catholicism is socialism. YesI’ll explain. Portuguese Catholicism became very much associated with the Socialist Party. This is a big paradox, as the Socialist Party has traditionally a masonic leadership and an heterodox catholic base.

Thus, I believe this paradox penetrated the sphere of the church. No Portuguese catholic is able to make a statement about it’s faith - it could be disrespectful to someone. Almost all Portuguese declare to be Catholics, but most completely ignore all aspects of the faith, make fun of the Church morality, and even insult the Holy Father frequently.Yes and I believe that the Church was largely responsible due to its association with the Fascist state

The clergy is clearly heterodox, but they won’t organize clown masses. It’s the socialist mid-way. They dispise everything and everyone that tries to live it’s religion seriously, and sermons are usually about “people who are pharisees because they impose their points of view on others, and they judge others. We can’t do that, otherwise we will end up being fanaticals and pharisees.”

My friend I love Portugal and nothing would give me more happiness than to see the Church come ALIVE:clapping: :tiphat:

 

[Cinette]

No, No I am not a liberal Catholic. Quite the contrary - I love the Pope and the Magisterium and I absolutely keep away from anything new age and heterodox

Yes, I don’t want to get personal or something like that, but in fact, with all due respect, we can say that Portugal is flooding with “catholics” like Cinette.Glad to know they are at least Catholic. From there they can be educated and “politicised” or should I say catechised In fact, these so-called liberal “catholics” represent the majority of the Catholic laity and clergy here in Portugal, with many not even realising that the heterodoxy, the liberal or relativist theories they support for the Catholic Faith, gets them more closer to some protestant sect than to the Catholic Church.Europe has be re-evangelized my friend!

Adding to all of this, like WH1988 said, portuguese “catholics” tend not to care about what the Church teaches, what Rome embraces and what Rome rejects, and they usually commit a very typical kind of action, which can be described by claiming they are Catholicyes cultural Catholics!, and yet afirming that they do not agree with a lot of things that the Church teaches and says to the faithfulyes what Mother Angelica called cafeteria Catholics!, and specially, that the Pope and the Roman Curia are old-fashioned and can’t expect to be accepted by the faithful, while preaching what the Church has always teached along thousands of years.

For example, in Portugal, a matter like chastity or contraception is considered controversial amongst Catholics; it shouldn’t be like that.Yes, and all this is the result of years of oppression and fascism And, unfortenately, the large majoriy which claim to be Catholic and then defend that the Church should allow contraception and female priests, also win on discussions like these, passing a wrong information to non-believers, by their awfull example. Of course, as you may imagine, people do get much more atracted to such an easy way to live your spirituality, than to what the Holy Mother Church originally preaches. Also, this has a lot to do, too, with the complete disorder that in many parishes, the liturgy of the Mass is in.I am SURE it would help to promote EWTN in Portugal.

It is a very complex subject, and we have to deal with it every day. Some awfull, heterodox clergy, no respect at all for the liturgy, a lot of false prophets preaching wrong doctrine and showing bad examples - these are some of the things we have to face daily, here in Portugal, amongst our brothers, which I thought it should be highlighted.

You are SO RIGHT.

Missionaries of the 21st century is the LAITY - go for it amigo, through prayer and your example - never compromising - YOU WILL CHANGE THINGS. :bounce:

Get EWTN. You will see what this can do.

Beijinhos

 

[Cinette]

Ridgerunner,

What if I tell you that even at the most orthodox parish of Lisbon (in my personal opinion) you can’t find a single priest in a confessionary to hear your confession?

In fact, the only place I trust for having my weekly confession is at Opus Dei’s Oratorium of S. Josemaria Escriva, in Lisbon. And to be honest, I think they are one of the very few Catholic institutions here in Portugal which you can trust in, being a good, true Catholic, because their orthodoxy and loyalty to the Church and her teachings is undisputable and well-known.

We need to pray and keep praying for Portugal and Europe. For a renewal of the Faith and for a new evangelization

 

[Cinette]

At a Mass that I attended, the priest said that everyone could receive Holy Communion. So if everyone is allowed to receive Holy Communion, why would there be a need for Confession?

You have to confront the Priest. Tell him what is in the Catechism and DON’T LET HIM OFF THE HOOK!