European Catholicism

[anon52328184]

thanks for that extensive lesson in european history DPDN. i am afraid i don’t know much european history before WWII. of course, i have heard of the French Revolution and Napolean, but your history over there goes back thousands of years, whereas, here in america, we only have to remember the last 350 years basically.

so i don’t have a real good sense of all that has happened over there with socialism marxism, communism, fascism, etc. thankfully, i have always lived in a country where we have a constitution and we are able to elect our leaders.

i don’t know, the 50’s over here were so innocent. it was the dawn of the so called baby boomers and men returning from the war were marrying, starting families, buying houses, employment was good. then, by the mid-60’s, everything began turning upside down. i remember we were influenced by the Beatles, so i am not sure who influenced who at which time to be honest.

i think church attendance was probably high through the 50’s and part of the 60’s, and then it began to decline. then, i think in the 90’s, there was a spiritual awakening here and people began flocking back to the churches.
of course, we always had billy graham and oral roberts, the great protestant evangelizers, but by the 90’s, people were looking for direction and spirituality in their lives. now, i think i have heard, that attendance is beginning to decline again and some people are just having worship services in their homes with a group of people because they have become disillusioned with the churches.

life over in europe is very different, so, i don’t know about the spirituality of future generations of europeans. with cable network now and all of the music videos and music shows on that encourage the secular life, it is hard to keep youth away from the modern music.

anyhow, thanks for the background.

 

[Cinette]

European decadence in Continental Europe began much earlier, with the dawn of the French Revolution, which was completely different from its American counterpart. The French did fought for social revolution, for the extermination of the rulling classes, for a complete and total change on the patterns of political power. In other words; it was a rupture with all of the past. That brought free masonry, anti-clericalism and many other jacobinist ideals to every land (once again, only on continental Europe) the french armies marched on.

Later on, after Napoleon was totally defeated (thank God!), Europe experimented a very long period of peace and colective security, through the union, in one Alliance, of some very powerful countries, at the time (Austria, Prussia and Russia), arround the sharing of common values and points of view - among them, monarchy, legitimacy and religion; very conservative ideals, as you can see. This Alliance, called the Holy Alliance, with it’s main objective being to ensure the French Royal House and Monarchy as political rullers of France, and to contain France, just in case the french expansionism returned sometime later, managed to keep conservativism, industrial and economic development and, above all, peace in Europe, since 1815 until the Crimean War, on the mid-19th Century.

Secularism started with the French Revolution, but was far from being completely ended, even with the Holy Alliance’s eyes upon every revolutionary ideal arround France or Europe. Marxism came in the mid-19th Century, and the Russian Revolution of 1917 was its culmination. Even before 1917, by the very end of the 19th Century, there were already some communist coups and temporary governments being installed, a little bit all over Europe - for instance, the Paris Commune of 1871, a sad example of it. Republicanism, associated with Socialist ideals, tended to flare all over the Iberian Peninsula, for example, and over other mediterranean countries, like Italy, for instance. In fact, these political movements were supported by Free Masonry and by other anti-catholic secret societies like the Carbonary (originated in Italy) and so on.

In Portugal, Republicanism won over the Monarchy in 1910, initiating a period of religious persecutions to Catholics. Thousands of Catholic clergymen were arrested, mocked, persecuted, humiliated and then, killed. Lay people were persecuted, too. Countless Church’s properties were confiscated by the State, who was the very leader of all these anti-clerical persecutions. It seemed like that the Catholic Church had been banned from Portugal. The same thing happened in Spain, 20 years later, ending up in a terrible civil war, which, thank God, ended up with the victors being the protectors of the Catholic Church.

But in fact, the last stab on the back of Europe, in what concerns to the dawn of secularism, was done after the end of WW2. The 50’s, starting with Elvis Presley, and then the 60’s, with the hippies, the so-called sexual revolution and the “drugs, sex and rock n’ roll” culture, were inevitably felt over Europe, too, specially on the democratic countries, like France, Britain, and so on. This couldn’t be avoided, since the western world was, from the end of WW2 until now, guided and leaded by the American model and influence. This was mostly felt on culture, rather than on politics or on economy (and it was preferable the other way round, in my personal opinion), as we europeans, in fact, keep our very “socialist” Social State as a social-economic model, which is, trully, one of the things which makes us unique in the World, today, for example.

You would have reasons to be afraid, had we not the Church. But we have the Church, and Christ, really and substantially present, is among us. So, nothing to fear. We just have to reorganize the resistance!

Thank you so much for this “apanhado” and for taking the trouble to do so.

I think that the sex revolution began with the pill - Elvis marketed it! I am not sure - this is just the product of my reflections.

I read through this very quickly but plan to read more carefully. I’m off to Mass now.

I am writing this post mainly to thank DAPDN - you see everyone how the Europeans present their posts? I would be surprised if we find the bickering and insults that goes on on some of the other forums. It is a pleasure to discuss and debate in this environment.

Thank you again DAPDN.

Ate logo!

 

[Kaninchen]

I think DAPDN should be thanked for his analysis, nowadays it’s as rare to read a thoroughly reactionary piece as it is a thoroughly revolutionary one.

When Edmond Burke wrote his ‘Reflections on the French Revolution’, Tom Paine’s comment was that he ‘pitied the plumage but forgot the dying bird’ and I’m afraid DAPDN is equally guilty – not only that, what could have been more decadent than the French Monarchy and aristocracy?

The Ancien Régime was doomed and, I’d suggest, far more than the French Revolution, what doomed it was a series of developments that began in England in the second half of the 18th Century – the Agrarian, Industrial and Public Health and Transport evolutions – the emergence of ‘mass society’, the birth of the modern age. Where scientific investigation and technical development had once been interesting intellectual pastimes for gentlemen, they now they mushroomed as they became generators of huge quantities of money and power. As before in history, the longer that the ‘Establishment’, the Ancien Régime, tried to hold out against the social evolution that was a necessary concomitant to all this, the more catastrophic the social results. Interestingly, it’s precisely in the countries that adapted quickest - those of Northern Europe - that Monarchy, the great epitome of ‘continuity’, has survived (the exception, Spain, where monarchy returned on the death of Franco, has a monarchy that is following the Northern European model).

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

I think DAPDN should be thanked for his analysis, nowadays it’s as rare to read a thoroughly reactionary piece as it is a thoroughly revolutionary one.

Indeed it will go into my collection of posts that shed light on how some elements of the US view Europeans. I have already had quite a few reactions from those that I show this type of material too. They range from fear, ridicule, incredulity, anger but most of all shock that those living an a country that is supposed to ba an ally, should think so low of Europe. Most people thought that the sentiment went as far as France. It is a terrible fright when they find out that the attitude spreads to all of Europe.

This a gem of an example. Neat. :clapping:

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

Indeed it will go into my collection of posts that shed light on how some elements of the US view Europeans. I have already had quite a few reactions to those that I show this type of material too. They range from fear, ridicule, incredulity, anger but most of all shock that those living an a country that is supposed to ba an ally, should think so low of Europe. Most people thought that the sentiment went as far as France. It is a terrible fright when they find out that the attitude spreads to all of Europe.

This a gem of an example. Neat. :clapping:

 

[WH1988]

As before in history, the longer that the ‘Establishment’, the Ancien Régime, tried to hold out against the social evolution that was a necessary concomitant to all this, the more catastrophic the social results. Interestingly, it’s precisely in the countries that adapted quickest - those of Northern Europe - that Monarchy, the great epitome of ‘continuity’, has survived (the exception, Spain, where monarchy returned on the death of Franco, has a monarchy that is following the Northern European model).

I disagree, I believe it has more to do with the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

Most Catholic countries insisted in the Ancién Regime, because it had some traditional elements that guaranteed some stability and because God was central in that regime. It was the future judgement by God that distinguished very clearly the European Monarches from the eastern desposts, although some were not so coherent with their Faith as they should. Authority, from God, through the monarch and the Church was indeed the central idea behind that regime.

Meanwhile, the Protestant countries … well, they had rebelled against authority, and thus it was easy for them to adopt some alternative institutions that could replace the influence of the Church (because the protestant sects were not able to replace the Church in many areas).

It was mainly the interest for protestant institutions, and the urge for imitating protestants, that lead many Catholic countries to adopt clearly protestant institutions as the idea of welfare/social services, public education, creating a major clash that never happened in protestant contries, of anti-clerical forces using force to replace the Catholic Church from all these institutions and put the State in it’s place, as well as to kill/depose Catholic Kings, who tend to recognize more quickly their authority as being given by God in order to serve the souls and the Church.

That’s why, in my opinion, Catholic countries have been more unstable and have fewer monarchies than protestant countries.

Post Scriptum: The only way Spain is becoming ‘like nordic countries’ is adopting policies like same-sex marriage. Oh, and persecuting the Church.

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

Another one! Bonus!
:bounce:

This thread is pure gold!

Keep 'em coming! Remember Protestant=Welfare=Europe=Secular=Bad!:whacky:

Public education is Protestant! BAHAHAHAHA!
Brilliant!:clapping:
WH1988 so are so blessedly free from the curse that is public education

 

[WH1988]

Another one! Bonus!
:bounce:

This thread is pure gold!

Keep 'em coming! Remember Protestant=Welfare=Europe=Seculat=Bad!:whacky:

Brilliant!:clapping:

Perhaps you should work on your charity. You know I didn’t say that, and even if I did, if you disagreed, you should had explained why instead of making those silly remarks.

 

[Kaninchen]

I disagree, I believe it has more to do with the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism.

I expect you would disagree!

In that the growth of Protestantism may well have been central to the rise of capitalism, I might even agree with the statement.

Most Catholic countries insisted in the Ancién Regime, because it had some traditional elements that guaranteed some stability and because God was central in that regime. It was the future judgement by God that distinguished very clearly the European Monarches from the eastern desposts, although some were not so coherent with their Faith as they should. Authority, from God, through the monarch and the Church was indeed the central idea behind that regime.

‘Most Catholic countries insisted did they’? Did they take a vote on that? Did they have pollsters going around the villages and alleyways of towns asking the peasantry and artisans whether they wanted to ‘insist’ on it?

It was mainly the interest for protestant institutions, and the urge for imitating protestants, that lead many Catholic countries to adopt clearly protestant institutions as the idea of welfare/social services, public education, creating a major clash that never happened in protestant contries, of anti-clerical forces using force to replace the Catholic Church from all these institutions and put the State in it’s place, as well as to kill/depose Catholic Kings, who tend to recognize more quickly their authority as being given by God in order to serve the souls and the Church.

The English would have ended up owning the entire Continent as quaint holiday homes.

Post Scriptum: The only way Spain is becoming ‘like nordic countries’ is adopting policies like same-sex marriage. Oh, and persecuting the Church.

It has a typical Northern European constitutional monarchy.

 

[Kaninchen]

Indeed it will go into my collection of posts that shed light on how some elements of the US view Europeans. I have already had quite a few reactions from those that I show this type of material too. They range from fear, ridicule, incredulity, anger but most of all shock that those living an a country that is supposed to ba an ally, should think so low of Europe. Most people thought that the sentiment went as far as France. It is a terrible fright when they find out that the attitude spreads to all of Europe.

This a gem of an example. Neat. :clapping:

I don’t know whether he’s actually an American but a lot of his analysis on this thread reads as if it’s come straight out of the ‘American Conservative Cookbook’ (where even the words mean one thing to an American Conservative and quite another to anybody else).

 

[WH1988]

‘Most Catholic countries insisted did they’? Did they take a vote on that? Did they have pollsters going around the villages and alleyways of towns asking the peasantry and artisans whether they wanted to ‘insist’ on it?

The rulers and a very significative part of many european generations.

The English would have ended up owning the entire Continent as quaint holiday homes.

That’s something we’ll never know.

It has a typical Northern European constitutional monarchy.

How so? Is a constitutional democracy necessarily Northern European?

The Spanish Crown has a very different role from that of North European monarchies - to keep Spain united. And I’m not even sure they’ll be able to avoid the destruition of Spain as we know it unless the King steps in and sends the military to stop Basque and Catalonian independentist rebellions.

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

Perhaps you should work on your charity.

Perhaps you should work on your charity as regards Europeans and protestants. As for silly remarks…have you read this thread.

It’s all the rage. (pun intended)

 

[WH1988]

Perhaps you should work on your charity as regards Europeans and protestants. As for silly remarks…have you read this thread.

It’s all the rage. (pun intended)

I AM European, unless you don’t know where Portugal is.

I certainly didn’t try to make fun of you, I limited myself to presenting my ideas. If you disagree with those, laughing and making fun at them won’t make them better or worse, it will make you look stupid.

 

[Kaninchen]

The rulers and a very significative part of many european generations.

What ‘significant part’? Who were they? What about everybody else?

That’s something we’ll never know.

Well, you explain how an ‘Ancien Régime’ society would have managed to compete with England’s industrial might.

How so? Is a constitutional democracy necessary Northern European?

I used the phrase ‘constitutional monarchy’ and that’s very Northern European.

The Spanish Crown has a very different role from that of North European monarchies - to keep Spain united.

Ever heard of the ‘United Kingdom’?

And I’m not even sure they’ll be able to avoid the destruition of Spain as we know it unless the King steps in and sends the military to stop Basque and Catalonian independentist rebellions.

The Brits have managed it for a very, very long time.

 

[WH1988]

What ‘significant part’? Who were they? What about everybody else?

Well, that’s what have been saying. Many of the agressiveness (and even civil wars) started there. Some supported the Ancién Regime, some were against it. Among those who admired protestant institutions, there were radicals, who became significative in number, that intented to deny the Catholic Church any role on society (replacing it’s social action by state-run welfare) and throw it to the private sphere of society.

This conflict never happened with any relevance in protestant societies (it is happening now due to a number of atheist radicals like Dawkins, with unpredictable consequences).

Well, you explain how an ‘Ancien Régime’ society would have managed to compete with England’s industrial might.

I am not a fan of the type of the centralism that characterized most European monarchies by then, but I don’t think that the existence of an absolute monarchy limits industrial development.

On a side note, I believe we should ask ourselves if all industrialization is good. Much of that industrialization was achieved perhaps with the loss of many souls - that’s a phenomenon that I observe in Portugal: the migration to the city has left the people quite without roots, because it wasn’t done with moderation. People now live, in my opinion, like robots, without any moral value, without references, many times without authority and frequently without hope.

That doesn’t mean “city=bad=protestant”, no way. There are cities which are balanced (not too crowded for it’s size, well integrated into the neighbouring environment, etc.), but with unregulated industrialization came many many social problems that are still to solve.

Also, unregulated industrialization was one of the main causes that caused nacionalism, and nacionalism caused what we all know. The lack of a local identity, which is possible on the country or on a parish of a well planned ‘human-friendly’ city, did not, does not and cannot exist on some of the cities and neighbourhoods I know, where people live like cattle, was fulfilled by nationalism .

So, once again, we will never know what would have happened, but perhaps many bad things could have been avoided. Or maybe not. My point here is that the ‘Ancién Regime’ is not the root of evil.

Ever heard of the ‘United Kingdom’?

The Brits have managed it for a very, very long time.

Oh, I’m afraid the situation is quite different (though we don’t know how UK will end). Spain lives permanently on a very tense equilibrium, which is being threatened by the jacobinism of Zapatero’s government, as well as by the excess of autonomy of Catalonia, in example. I personally believe they’ll end in civil war again.

 

[Kaninchen]

Well, that’s what have been saying. Many of the agressiveness (and even civil wars) started there. Some supported the Ancién Regime, some were against it.

What I’ve been saying was that, using an English phrase, ‘the game was up’. The French Monarchy was broke, there was a recession and it was running out of friends. It should have learned a lesson from the English Monarchy (“you can get your head cut off if you don’t compromise”).

Among those who admired protestant institutions, there were radicals, who became significative in number, that intented to deny the Catholic Church any role on society (replacing it’s social action by state-run welfare) and throw it to the private sphere of society.

‘Protestant institutions’, I take it, means freedom of conscience and things like equality under the Law?

The Catholic Church paid the price of being wedded to regimes that were becoming totally anachronistic.

This conflict never happened with any relevance in protestant societies (it is happening now due to a number of atheist radicals like Dawkins, with unpredictable consequences).

I don’t know what you’re trying to say here.

I am not a fan of the type of the centralism that characterized most European monarchies by then, but I don’t think that the existence of an absolute monarchy limits industrial development.

Not even a Red Tsar like Stalin could pull off that trick for too long. I can see that the first stage (the capital accumulation stage, building up heavy industry) as being possible but the dynamic inventiveness necessary to go further - very unlikely. For that, you need not just a few highly educated people but a lot, you need an educated and skilled workforce, you need free-flowing investment. Such people are hardly likely to stomach an absolute monarchy - as was found in the USSR, they just got permanently drunk.

On a side note, I believe we should ask ourselves if all industrialization is good. Much of that industrialization was achieved perhaps with the loss of many souls - that’s a phenomenon that I observe in Portugal: the migration to the city has left the people quite without roots, because it wasn’t done with moderation. People now live, in my opinion, like robots, without any moral value, without references, many times without authority and frequently without hope.

Bit like questioning whether the weather is a good thing - you don’t get to choose. You can choose, like Salazar in Portugal - football, faith and fado - or DeValera in Ireland, to try to keep your country a Catholic peasant society for a Catholic peasant people but it’s rather like its opposite, the Soviet concept of ‘socialism in one country’, inevitably going to break down because you can’t control everything within the society, never mind outside it.

Also, unregulated industrialization was one of the main causes that caused nacionalism, and nacionalism caused what we all know. The lack of a local identity, which is possible on the country or on a parish of a well planned ‘human-friendly’ city, did not, does not and cannot exist on some of the cities and neighbourhoods I know, where people live like cattle, was fulfilled by nationalism .

Nationalism pre-dated industrialization. France, Germany and Italy were nowhere near the same stage as England when the nationalist risings began.

So, once again, we will never know what would have happened, but perhaps many bad things could have been avoided. Or maybe not. My point here is that the ‘Ancién Regime’ is not the root of evil.

It was just a stage in the development of Europe.

Oh, I’m afraid the situation is quite different (though we don’t know how UK will end). Spain lives permanently on a very tense equilibrium, which is being threatened by the jacobinism of Zapatero’s government, as well as by the excess of autonomy of Catalonia, in example. I personally believe they’ll end in civil war again.

I expect you do.

 

[Cuddy_Duck]

I AM European, unless you don’t know where Portugal is.

So you are. Never said you weren’t. OTOH You are very fluent. You could be taken for a native speaker. Congratulations. I detect little L1 interference in your english (apart from “nacionalism”).

 

[KingAlfred]

I’m sure the situation isn’t as drastic as many Americans think. We’re simply worried, that’s all, given what we’ve come to know about Europe’s liberalism, socialism, declining European population, and Muslim immigrant influx. I encourage all European Christians to keep up the good fight, to keep Europe Christian.

 

[DAPDN]

I don’t know whether he’s actually an American but a lot of his analysis on this thread reads as if it’s come straight out of the ‘American Conservative Cookbook’ (where even the words mean one thing to an American Conservative and quite another to anybody else).

I’m guessing that perhaps you guys have a little bit of a blur vision… In case you didn’t notice, I, too, am from Portugal; Lisbon, to be more precise. It’s there, on the upper right corner of all of my posts! Oh, and that makes me, obviously, an European. So, still surprised?

 

[Jimzz12]

Europeans opted to seperate themselves from Christ…

1. The 1789 Massacres in France and worshipping of the Sun-God in the National French religion of the Cult of the Most High under the early Republic.
2. The participation and ommission in various genocides from the Armenians, to the Balkans, to the Jews, the Irish.
3. Ignoring the plight of Europes primitive peoples such as the Lapps and Highlanders, and forcing the homoginization of unique communities of peoples.
4. Extreme nationalism fragmenting Europe at the cost of Culturalism and unity.
5. Ignoring the plight of workers in the early industrial revolution.
6. Not protecting themselves by denying entrance by outsiders into Europe without first prooving themselves as friendly to the mission of the Church.
7. Lasty, Christ told us this would happen. Every kingdom erodes. Only the Most Holy Trinity is eternal.