J
- Status
C
Caroline17
Guest
How do you know a pet is not an angel? They don’t have to come with wings, and they have free will. An angel can come in ANY form, to teach us, to bring us closer to God, for friendship, guardian angel. As far as I know God could have an angel in the form of a tree, or your tomato plant, or a rock. Whatever it is we need at the time to protect us, guide us, teach us to love more deeply, appreciate the beauty in the world around us God has created. There is so much we don’t know, we will never know, and we don’t have to know about the mysterious ways in which God works.
Abide with Me, I’m sorry I insulted you, I can see how I made you feel I think I’m better than Protestants. I do not think that. I simply meant I felt like while Georgias had knowledge of Catholic Catechism it was being interpreted and spoken as a Protestant. I have nothing whatsoever against non Catholics. I think I can learn a lot from people of any religion.
Georgias, In regards to sparrows, you’re being a real smartypants. I am sorry, but you KNOW the general idea is that God cares about sparrows, so why wouldn’t he care about us. You’re really splitting hairs there with Severus68, breaking it down now, by different wording in different versions of the Bible.
Saying sarcastic things like “the Bible doesn’t say there’s no birthday cake in Heaven, so it’s ok if I wanna believe there’s birthday cake in Heaven I can,” is like and aetheist saying something like, “well if God can do anything can he make a rock he can’t lift?” Cmon. You say don’t we have to take the Catechism literally, but the writers of the Catechism, don’t look at things the way you do. If they felt it was important to our salvation and true, they would have said, “there will be no “cheescake or horses” in heaven.” That’s just not how Catholics look at things. Don’t place limits on what God can do. Why would St Francis of Assisi have written the Canticle to the Creatures and referred to them as “brother” and “sister” if they weren’t an important part of God’s family and plan for salvation present with Adam and Eve in the Garden even before original sin, the Nativity of Jesus, keeping him warm. Jesus was born in a stable with animals! God didn’t have to put them there, he could have been born anywhere. Earlier in this thread you dismissed Marylauravicuna and the teachings of the mystic St Hildegard de Bingen. Are you going to do the same with the teachings of St Francis of Assisi. Now you are more knowlegeable than them? The fact that you would dismiss the teachings of a single Catholic Saint, leads me to believe you are not Catholic. You are trying again, to twist our Catechism into non Catholic beliefs. You have only served to reinforce my Catholic beliefs.
Last, I also noticed the only one of my comments you did not post a rebutle to was the statement I made regarding the fact that the Catechism has changed many times over the years. The official church teachings have changed multiple times, that represent the times in which they were written. With each new teaching comes a higher level of enlightenment.
Abide with Me, I’m sorry I insulted you, I can see how I made you feel I think I’m better than Protestants. I do not think that. I simply meant I felt like while Georgias had knowledge of Catholic Catechism it was being interpreted and spoken as a Protestant. I have nothing whatsoever against non Catholics. I think I can learn a lot from people of any religion.
Georgias, In regards to sparrows, you’re being a real smartypants. I am sorry, but you KNOW the general idea is that God cares about sparrows, so why wouldn’t he care about us. You’re really splitting hairs there with Severus68, breaking it down now, by different wording in different versions of the Bible.
Saying sarcastic things like “the Bible doesn’t say there’s no birthday cake in Heaven, so it’s ok if I wanna believe there’s birthday cake in Heaven I can,” is like and aetheist saying something like, “well if God can do anything can he make a rock he can’t lift?” Cmon. You say don’t we have to take the Catechism literally, but the writers of the Catechism, don’t look at things the way you do. If they felt it was important to our salvation and true, they would have said, “there will be no “cheescake or horses” in heaven.” That’s just not how Catholics look at things. Don’t place limits on what God can do. Why would St Francis of Assisi have written the Canticle to the Creatures and referred to them as “brother” and “sister” if they weren’t an important part of God’s family and plan for salvation present with Adam and Eve in the Garden even before original sin, the Nativity of Jesus, keeping him warm. Jesus was born in a stable with animals! God didn’t have to put them there, he could have been born anywhere. Earlier in this thread you dismissed Marylauravicuna and the teachings of the mystic St Hildegard de Bingen. Are you going to do the same with the teachings of St Francis of Assisi. Now you are more knowlegeable than them? The fact that you would dismiss the teachings of a single Catholic Saint, leads me to believe you are not Catholic. You are trying again, to twist our Catechism into non Catholic beliefs. You have only served to reinforce my Catholic beliefs.
Last, I also noticed the only one of my comments you did not post a rebutle to was the statement I made regarding the fact that the Catechism has changed many times over the years. The official church teachings have changed multiple times, that represent the times in which they were written. With each new teaching comes a higher level of enlightenment.
C
Caroline17
Guest
I feel you can believe either way. Don’t try to make people feel ignorant though.
I do suppose we should have a different thread for this. As you can see I’ve only posted 20 times, I’m not sure how far we can veer off. However, I have to say, if I had read all of this the day my kitty passed on, it would have helped me to feel God did guide me to help my little Simba to move on at that time, and that I would indeed be with him and Jesus in Heaven when it’s my time to move on.
I do suppose we should have a different thread for this. As you can see I’ve only posted 20 times, I’m not sure how far we can veer off. However, I have to say, if I had read all of this the day my kitty passed on, it would have helped me to feel God did guide me to help my little Simba to move on at that time, and that I would indeed be with him and Jesus in Heaven when it’s my time to move on.
H
hu324b
Guest
I believe this thinking that animals have no soul is the cause of the great abuse and misery done to all sorts of animals in this world - some people are so cruel and have no respect for this life created by god and use it to justify their treatment of animals - I see the pure spirits in my pets - so unlike me. You can see the damage done to the spirit of a animal by the creulty preformed against them - you can’t deny that. Some of these animals are so tormented by the cruel act that they endured they never recover. Do we have that right to do that to them. One I can point out - just by looking at them is the Orca - in captivity their dorsal fin sags right side ways - they are just not meant to be there - compare them to a wild ones and you can see the difference - I just saw that documentary black fish and its an eye opener - all for our entertainment without thinking of the effect it has on them.They are very intelligent and family orient creatures.Its a sad film to watch.
I am no animal activist by I can see why people are and with good reason.
I wouldn’t be suprised to see animals in heaven I have seen the great joy they bring to some of the people I visit in the hospital - they lift the spirit of the people.
I am no animal activist by I can see why people are and with good reason.
I wouldn’t be suprised to see animals in heaven I have seen the great joy they bring to some of the people I visit in the hospital - they lift the spirit of the people.
G
Gorgias
Guest
There’s a Franciscan – who is advertising his book “Will I see my dog in heaven?” – who admits that “It’s true that we know very little in detail about the kind of life we are destined to spend with God in heaven or how animals and other creatures (might) be included in the picture.” But he thinks there will be animals in heaven.
An Anglican thinks that dogs will be in heaven.
Someone at Answers.com says that Christians believe there will be animals in heaven.
A Catholic priest points out that animals have souls. Not eternal souls, mind you, just souls.
A woman with a devotion to Padre Pio reminds us that animals have souls.
So, let’s see: animals have souls (which is true; even Aquinas remarked on this), but that wasn’t the question I asked. I asked whether The Catholic Church teaches that animals have eternal souls. You’ve answered that Anglicans and internet sites think animals will be in heaven, and that Pope John Paul II affirmed a soul (but just not an eternal soul).
You realize that you haven’t answered the question, right? I mean, nice try – but if you’re asserting that they do have eternal souls, we’re looking for evidence of Church teaching that says that animals have eternal souls. You haven’t done that here.
G
Gorgias
Guest
Let’s be clear, though: I’m not asserting that “animals have no soul;” that doesn’t fit within the tradition of the Church. What I am saying, however, is that the Church doesn’t teach that animals have eternal souls, which is a whole 'nother thing. Having a soul means that you are alive; having an eternal soul means that you cannot die, and will necessarily experience eternal life.
It’s the latter question we’re discussing here, not the former. JCnMe demonstrated – and rightly so – that animals have souls. However, so do all living things; and we’re not saying that those blades of grass that you cut every week in your lawn will be in heaven, are we?
G
Gorgias
Guest
Do we see anything in the Bible that suggests that this might be so? Do we see any Church teachings that tell us that this might be remotely possible? No.
Ouch; no, animals do not have “free will”; they make choices, but those choices are not guided by rational thought. They have a brain, but rationality – free will – is what distinguishes humans. That’s standard in Catholic teaching.
That’s a pretty thought… but that doesn’t mean that whatever God puts before us in creation is an ‘angel.’
I kind of am. But, the attempt was to use a Scripture passage to tell me that I was wrong; so, I simply demonstrated that not only did the Scripture not say what he said it was saying, but that instead, it was actually an example of the words of Jesus that tend to defend my point, not his. The smartypants part was just extra.
It’s called “exegesis”; that is, trying to understand what the Bible is telling us. Does the Bible tell us that “this person over here is more important to God than that person over there”? Of course not – God wishes all people to join Him in heaven. But, Jesus clearly says that we individual humans are more important than many sparrows put together. If sparrows – and dogs and cats – had eternal souls, it wouldn’t make sense to say that. His Scripture citation hurts his case.
Time out: I said that we do have the take the Catechism literally.
Good point: if the writers of the catechism thought that it was relevant information and true information that animals have eternal souls, they would have said so. They did not.
And I’m not: I’m saying that God might re-create animals in heaven. I’ve said that, I think, a couple of times already. It’s just the case that the question asked – whether animals have eternal souls – is a completely different question, and one whose answer can be inferred from the teaching of the Church: only humans have eternal souls.
I’m not claiming that animals aren’t important! After all, God gave them to us and told us to “fill the earth and subdue it… [h]ave dominion over” all creation, including animals – but, we’re told “none [of the animals] proved to be a helper suited to the man”. We love the animals that God places with us in our lives, but only other humans share in that divine live of the Father through the gift of an eternal soul.
No; I’m just not trying to make others twist what they’ve said into some inaccurate representation of Church teaching.
Nice straw man. You’re pretty good at setting up misrepresentations of what others have said. That takes skill.
Wow. Just… wow.
I had responded, but the post was too long. Please let me correct that oversight.
The ‘catechism’ of the Church – that is, the teachings of the Church – have not “changed many times”, in the way that you’re asserting that they have. True, the Church’s understanding of God’s revelation has grown over time. But, the Church doesn’t say, “we thought this thing a couple hundred years ago, but now, we think the opposite.” Also, the Church modifies the way that it expresses its teachings, in order to be more easily understood in a different place and time; but again, that does not mean that the teachings change. And so, I don’t really get what you’re getting at – unless you’re trying to imply that, in some future age, when we’re more “enlightened”, a new Catechism will state, “that stuff about only humans being made in the image and likeness of God? You know, that stuff in Genesis? Yeah, we were wrong about that. Sorry.”…?
J
JCnMe
Guest
Gorgias…You failed to try to diminish Pope John Paul II ‘s declaration or Padre Pio’s etc etc… as I said previously it’s your own voice you hear cheering you on…not Priests,nor Popes… and if God contacted you directly instead of through words of his ordained-you wouldn’t believe Him either 
…notice those links are to both Catholic and other Christian publications… instead of seeing/hearing the message- you choose to deny the messenger… perhaps you missed the part about animals not being lesser creation-… and they carry no sin… as far as going to Heaven- Jesus’ gift of everlasting life is for all of God’s creation… but only mankind faces the possibility of throwing that gift back in God’s face by denial
…notice those links are to both Catholic and other Christian publications… instead of seeing/hearing the message- you choose to deny the messenger… perhaps you missed the part about animals not being lesser creation-… and they carry no sin… as far as going to Heaven- Jesus’ gift of everlasting life is for all of God’s creation… but only mankind faces the possibility of throwing that gift back in God’s face by denial
G
Gorgias
Guest
JCnMe,
A simple question, if you please: did JP II say that animals have eternal souls, or did he just say that they have souls?
I would submit to you that the two are distinctly different.
What do you say, then? “Eternal soul” or simply “soul”? Is there a difference?
That’s true; but they’re not the words of the magisterium (i.e., the teaching authority of the Church). That’s where authoritative Church teaching comes from, and not from even the most well-meaning, loving Christian, Catholic, or priest.
J
JCnMe
Guest
You can read- there is no differentiation in the Pope’s declaration… you insist on being an elitist… but remember this too was addressed… the first shall be last-and the last shall be first…
G
Gorgias
Guest
No; it is simply that he wasn’t talking about eternal souls. You can keep telling yourself that when he said “soul,” he meant “eternal soul,” but you need to recall that Wojtyla was a philosopher, and therefore, was a very precise speaker. Yet, if you need additional help understanding the concept, see this FAQ from the catholic.com site…
No; I insist on being accurate. If ‘sloppy’ is the opposite of ‘elite’, then you’re welcome to it…
L
LittleDavid
Guest
I always found Psalm 36:6 comforting,“Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O Lord.”
S
Sister_Angel
Guest
If animals didn’t mean anything to God why would he have made them? Just to suffer and die? NADA,read the book Genesis;9:stop at verse 11 why would he even count an animals life here if they were not just as Little David said?Psalms:36 Think!Matthew 5:11-12.
J
JCnMe
Guest
You think you are being accurate-and have the audacity to say by my pointing out what others in authority of the Church have said- pretty much nullifying your argument-that I’m “sloppy” 
…I think anal would be more of an apt description of your work than accurate-you simply are not capable of allowing God to step out of that box you have put Him in…playing symantics… if the Pope deemed to say animals are not lesser than humans-then in your strict interpretation- either he is saying we’ve been demoted…or animals have been promoted… doesn’t matter- either way I know I’m going to see the many animals in my life… 
:heaven: I am sorry though that’s such a disappointment for you…
and FYI… part of the answer in the link you shared- actually turns that article around to the reason Pets will be in Heaven… being able to Love and Know… describes animals perfectly-the love they share is as close to the Unconditional love of Heaven that we as humans can only aspire to… read the statements of Pope John Paul II and the saints again
…I think anal would be more of an apt description of your work than accurate-you simply are not capable of allowing God to step out of that box you have put Him in…playing symantics… if the Pope deemed to say animals are not lesser than humans-then in your strict interpretation- either he is saying we’ve been demoted…or animals have been promoted… doesn’t matter- either way I know I’m going to see the many animals in my life… :heaven: I am sorry though that’s such a disappointment for you…and FYI… part of the answer in the link you shared- actually turns that article around to the reason Pets will be in Heaven… being able to Love and Know… describes animals perfectly-the love they share is as close to the Unconditional love of Heaven that we as humans can only aspire to… read the statements of Pope John Paul II and the saints again
C
Caroline17
Guest
I was speaking of angels when I said they have free will. No reason to address the rest. I believe most of us believe even stronger now, that we’ll see animals in Heaven, not just our pets, and will not say we KNOW God won’t have rocks or anything there. We don’t have to justify and prove, because to us it’s actually ok if we’re wrong about it.
I do not feel I have all the answers, I don’t feel it’s my job to “teach” others about what their relationship with God, and their understanding should be. I firmly believe, “Preach the Gospel if necessary use words.” St Francis of Assisi, I believe. There’s a difference between simply stating an opinion or debating, vs forcing people to see it the way you do, patronizing them, insulting their intelligence. The difference is kindness, respect, humbleness. That’s not just something to talk about, it’s supposed to be part of everything we do and say.
I’ve never changed anything about my life because someone forced me. Not even because they let me know they have all the answers, and knew all the rules, Kinda like those who said- Jesus better not be healing on the Sabbath, he’s evil, blasphemous, because we have strict rules about this, and if they’re not followed then that person is wrong, and going to lead the LESSER OF US astray, we scholars know it all.- (summarizing here)
I may just be a dumb welder, and certainly not siting verses word for word, but I’ll tell you what… The people who inspire change, the people who God is working thru are those who make you think, “where is that joy coming from, where’s that goodness, and peace from? Look at the way God using them!” They’re spirit filled, strong, and they don’t diminish people.
I don’t want to put anyone in their place with this either but again…Come on…!
I do not feel I have all the answers, I don’t feel it’s my job to “teach” others about what their relationship with God, and their understanding should be. I firmly believe, “Preach the Gospel if necessary use words.” St Francis of Assisi, I believe. There’s a difference between simply stating an opinion or debating, vs forcing people to see it the way you do, patronizing them, insulting their intelligence. The difference is kindness, respect, humbleness. That’s not just something to talk about, it’s supposed to be part of everything we do and say.
I’ve never changed anything about my life because someone forced me. Not even because they let me know they have all the answers, and knew all the rules, Kinda like those who said- Jesus better not be healing on the Sabbath, he’s evil, blasphemous, because we have strict rules about this, and if they’re not followed then that person is wrong, and going to lead the LESSER OF US astray, we scholars know it all.- (summarizing here)
I may just be a dumb welder, and certainly not siting verses word for word, but I’ll tell you what… The people who inspire change, the people who God is working thru are those who make you think, “where is that joy coming from, where’s that goodness, and peace from? Look at the way God using them!” They’re spirit filled, strong, and they don’t diminish people.
I don’t want to put anyone in their place with this either but again…Come on…!
C
Caroline17
Guest
You previously mentioned that JCnMe and you could both be speaking better to each other. I think JCnMe is just frustrated at being talked to like a 2 year old. Has nothing to do with whether I agree with her/him.
S
severus68
Guest
You choose sarcasm and insults to “further” your arguement. I was going to go through each of your points but I won’t bother. It appears that you only want to be told you are right.Outstanding insight! Creation exists by and for the glory of God! Yes, indeed! And, indeed, in the eschaton, there will be a new heavens and a new earth! Now… does this mean that this tree in my backyard will be in heaven? Or that that tomato plant that I grew last year will with me in heaven? After all, I really loved growing it and tending to it! (On the other hand, might there be trees and tomato plants in heaven? Perhaps.) But are we saying that this one or that one will be there? No…
This is the claim that ya’ll have made in this thread. I, too, have asked you to demonstrate your claim with anything that approximates a proof; yet, the only proof given is that “the Church has left it open.” That’s a distortion of the truth. As I mentioned: the Church doesn’t mention cheesecake in the catechism, and whether it has the ability to save us from hell. That does not mean that “the Church has left the question of the salvific power of cheesecake open.”
No… mine is an argument, based on what the Church says about attainment to heaven, and about what enables us to do so. One expression of that belief – one that was mentioned here – was whether animals have eternal souls. My ‘view’ – which I’ve backed up with the teachings of the Church in the catechism – is that they do not.
Actually, no: Jesus says that the Father knows everything, even the death of a sparrow. In the passage you’re referencing, Jesus says: “Are not two sparrows sold for a small coin? Yet not one of them falls to the ground without your Father’s knowledge… So do not be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.” That doesn’t sound like Jesus is saying that we and the sparrows are equal in the status of possessing eternal souls; we are, after all, ‘worth more than many sparrows’.
Or, perhaps you’re referencing this citation: “Look at the birds in the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important than they?” Even in this case, what is the extent of God’s care for the birds? Does Jesus say that God raises them to eternal life? No… he takes care of their earthly needs – He feeds them. And even so, we’re reminded that we ‘are more important than they.’
Thank you for helping to illustrate my point.
That’s not the basis of it at all! Our intellect, per se, doesn’t come into the picture! It’s not that we’re smarter that makes the difference! It’s not even that God “cannot love” them! It’s the simple reason that only humans are made “in the image and likeness” of God; it’s purely that only humans have eternal souls. It’s not a matter of feeling superior; it’s a matter of believing what the Bible and the Catechism tell us – that is, what they do not “leave open”…
Thank you… but that’s immaterial: the truth is the truth, no matter who believes in it; what is untrue is untrue, no matter whether one asks or forces others to believe it. The Church teaches the truth… and it does not teach that animals have eternal souls and go to heaven.
I have stated what the Church teaches; ya’ll have made it clear that you do not agree with the logical implications of that teaching. It appears we won’t make any further progress on that point. However, if anyone has any examples of Church teaching that back up your assertions of this “open point”, I’d love to read them.
Peace,
G.
S
severus68
Guest
Thanks for this. Some people are arrogant enough to think that only humans deserve and have a right to heaven. Being made in the image of God, with free will and superior intellect means we have more responsibility. We are priviledged, not entitled.
C
Caroline17
Guest
Originally Posted by LittleDavid View Post
I always found Psalm 36:6 comforting,“Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O Lord.”
Right on!
I always found Psalm 36:6 comforting,“Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your judgments are like the great deep; you save humans and animals alike, O Lord.”
Right on!
G
Gorgias
Guest
The ‘some people’ to whom you refer would like to reply.
No one “deserves and [has] a right to heaven”; none of us. On the other hand, only humans are made in the imago Dei, and therefore, are made – by design! – with the ability to inherit eternal life. We are privileged, not entitled…
- Status