Evaluating Dembski's ID

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Hi Namesake,

You sed: “Serious science doesn’t publish ID theories because there is no research to publish. It’s just opinions.”

If you read Dembski you would admit this isn’t true. This is a serious proposal. Let’s operate under the “good faith assumption” and assume that Dembski isn’t a “Fundamentalist Nut Case”. I seriously doubt that he could get PHD’s in math and philosophy, as well as other post-doc degrees, if he were dumb and out to lunch–and dishonest to boot.
 
How does SETI test for signals 24/7. They have algorithms that crunch the numbers.

Now how do we know that a computer was designed? Can we put this recognition into a formula? That is what they are after.

Let them do their research. Science is full of dead end travels. If they fail then it will go away. What are some of you so afraid of?
Very good and a cogent point. Science is not afraid at all. Can you make the same claim for religion? Will religious fundamentalists change in light of the evidence that science provides?
 
Very good and a cogent point. Science is not afraid at all. Can you make the same claim for religion? Will religious fundamentalists change in light of the evidence that science provides?
Truth cannot contradict truth, Science will always ending up supporting Revealed truth.
 
Namesake also sayeth: "It must be testable and that implies refutable. "

The Design Revolution has a whole chapter dedicated to this question. But since I’ve gotten a couple of brandies under my belt, and I’ve exhausted myself physically hunting the Dangerous North Dakota Pheasant, I won’t get to this until the morning.

God blessss you all! and thank you for participation.
corridially

da Schnobbster
 
Hi Namesake,

You sed: “Serious science doesn’t publish ID theories because there is no research to publish. It’s just opinions.”

If you read Dembski you would admit this isn’t true. This is a serious proposal. Let’s operate under the “good faith assumption” and assume that Dembski isn’t a “Fundamentalist Nut Case”. I seriously doubt that he could get PHD’s in math and philosophy, as well as other post-doc degrees, if he were dumb and out to lunch–and dishonest to boot.
Kurt Wise was a very promising and well educated scientist (geology) and he made a decision to toss all the science for his fundamentalist beliefs. It happens, and in some cases like Kurt Wise, it is tragic because he could have been a very bright light in an important effort to teach science to people who could go on to discover a lot about our universe.
 
Very good and a cogent point. Science is not afraid at all. Can you make the same claim for religion? Will religious fundamentalists change in light of the evidence that science provides?
I don’t know about religious fundamenalists. This is a Catholic site so it’s really not the best place to ask about them. Catholic theological views have certainly changed over the centuries with several schools of thought gaining approval from Rome.

Some make the claim that science and religion do not overlap. You, however do not believe that (since science should cause religion to change according to your view).

Science is limited to a study of the external aspects of nature (molecules and matter) and thus can only provide a superficial knowledge of nature and the universe.
 
I don’t know about religious fundamenalists. This is a Catholic site so it’s really not the best place to ask about them. Catholic theological views have certainly changed over the centuries with several schools of thought gaining approval from Rome.

Some make the claim that science and religion do not overlap. You, however do not believe that (since science should cause religion to change according to your view).

Science is limited to a study of the external aspects of nature (molecules and matter) and thus can only provide a superficial knowledge of nature and the universe.
Science is a subset of truth. It can only say so much. And yes there are areas of overlap. It has painted itself into a corner by limiting itself to empiricism.
 
I don’t know about religious fundamenalists. This is a Catholic site so it’s really not the best place to ask about them. Catholic theological views have certainly changed over the centuries with several schools of thought gaining approval from Rome.

Some make the claim that science and religion do not overlap. You, however do not believe that (since science should cause religion to change according to your view).

Science is limited to a study of the external aspects of nature (molecules and matter) and thus can only provide a superficial knowledge of nature and the universe.
From what I have gathered from your posts here you would qualify as a fundamentalist. I am certain that you would not agree.

Molecules and matter (your description) provide a lot more than superficial knowledge. In fact they provide the essence of nature and the universe. Chemistry and physics are the basis of biology and we have learned a lot since the bronze age. We no longer have to believe that the Sun circles the Earth. We are blessed to understand the germ theory of disease, dontcha think?

I reckon that the special theory of relativity and the general theory of relativity are kinda important in our lives. The list goes on and on.

Evolution is the very basis for all of our biology today. That includes all sorts of wonders we wouldn’t do without like vaccines. Like the amazing future of genetic treatment of diseases. Transplant surgery is based on ideas that have been developed because we understand immunology so well through research based on evolution science. HIV/AIDS has provided a rich area of research in immunology that would be impossible if we didn’t have the theory of evolution to guide the research.

Our lives are impacted in a positive way every day because we understand the basic idea that Darwin revealed.

If your religion is threatened because of the fact of evolution science then I suggest that your religion isn’t worth much and never was worth much, and never will be worth much.

Religion and evolution are not in contradiction. If anything they are very complimentary and evolution science only strengthens Christian belief because a loving God gives us the means to learn about our universe and we should be grateful for that gift.

It’s an insult to God to reject that which He has enabled us to discover about the wonders of His creation.
 
From what I have gathered from your posts here you would qualify as a fundamentalist. I am certain that you would not agree.

Molecules and matter (your description) provide a lot more than superficial knowledge. In fact they provide the essence of nature and the universe. Chemistry and physics are the basis of biology and we have learned a lot since the bronze age. We no longer have to believe that the Sun circles the Earth. We are blessed to understand the germ theory of disease, dontcha think?

I reckon that the special theory of relativity and the general theory of relativity are kinda important in our lives. The list goes on and on.

Evolution is the very basis for all of our biology today. That includes all sorts of wonders we wouldn’t do without like vaccines. Like the amazing future of genetic treatment of diseases. Transplant surgery is based on ideas that have been developed because we understand immunology so well through research based on evolution science. HIV/AIDS has provided a rich area of research in immunology that would be impossible if we didn’t have the theory of evolution to guide the research.

Our lives are impacted in a positive way every day because we understand the basic idea that Darwin revealed.

If your religion is threatened because of the fact of evolution science then I suggest that your religion isn’t worth much and never was worth much, and never will be worth much.

Religion and evolution are not in contradiction. If anything they are very complimentary and evolution science only strengthens Christian belief because a loving God gives us the means to learn about our universe and we should be grateful for that gift.

It’s an insult to God to reject that which He has enabled us to discover about the wonders of His creation.
We are limited by our 5 senses 3 dimensions and time. We are essentially flatlanders.

Religion is indeed threatened by false scienctific philosophies, and recognition of the areas of conflict is mature thinking. Revealed truth cannot change, as it was true then and will be forever. It is threatened by material evolution and says more about the weakness of materialistic theories than it does about religion. Materialistic evolution and Revealed religion cannot both be true,

There are great scientific accomplishments that have helped humanity. However, unguided science is capable of great evils.

Science should not operate in a vacuum.
 
From what I have gathered from your posts here you would qualify as a fundamentalist. I am certain that you would not agree.
I’m very sorry that you’re completely wrong on both counts.
Of course, it depends on who is doing the “qualifying” but in my church, I am not considered a fundamentalist but merely a Catholic in good standing.
You’re very wrong about how I view myself also.

With two strikes against you in your very first paragraph, I will hesitate to engage in discussion with you further until you recognize your errors. Thanks.
Molecules and matter (your description) provide a lot more than superficial knowledge. In fact they provide the essence of nature and the universe.
How can science proved that this is the “essence” (a philosophical term" of the universe?
We are blessed to understand the germ theory of disease, dontcha think?
We are blessed to learn about molecules and matter, but we are more blessed to learn about the nature of God and the nature of blessing itself – these are the deeper essences that science cannot (or will not) explore.
I reckon that the special theory of relativity and the general theory of relativity are kinda important in our lives. The list goes on and on.
Learning how to drive a car was very important in my life. But I would call that a study and learning of a superficial aspect of reality – even though it was very important.
Evolution is the very basis for all of our biology today.
Some scientists disagree with that.
That includes all sorts of wonders we wouldn’t do without like vaccines.
As above – some disagree that evolutionary theory (which is far from certain given the many contradictions and refutations it faces each year) was necessary for such knowledge.
If your religion is threatened because of the fact of evolution science then I suggest that your religion isn’t worth much and never was worth much, and never will be worth much.
If evolutionary science is threatened by my criticisms (which are actually the criticisms of other scientists and scholars) then it’s clear that it’s really not worth much.

My religion teaches us to criticize theories that are founded in error. This gives us support for criticism of the errors of evolutionism (of which there are many theories).
Religion and evolution are not in contradiction.
I’d like to hear your views on this.
How, precisely, did God affect the development of nature?
If anything they are very complimentary and evolution science only strengthens Christian belief because a loving God gives us the means to learn about our universe and we should be grateful for that gift.
That does sound great to me. But again, I would like to know precisely what God created, when and what impact that had on the development of the universe, life and human life.
It’s an insult to God to reject that which He has enabled us to discover about the wonders of His creation.
It’s an insult to God to deny that He created anything or that He has no discernable influence in the development of life and nature.
 
Hey all,

Anudder luffly day in Nordakoda!

Here are the propositions of ID laid bare for all to see:
  1. Specified complexity (SC) is a reliable indicator of design.
  2. Biological systems exhibit SC.
  3. Naturalistic mechanism or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of SC.
  4. Therefore, ID consitutes the best explanation for the origin of SC in bio systems.
First off, these appear in principle to be testable propositions. Deferring the definitions of SC and design for a bit, it seems that these props can be verified or disproved by empirical observation. In short, if you want to disprove ID, go out and find an example where SC has arisen by undirected naturalistic mechanisms alone.

So I think the charge that ID isn’t a testable theory simply isn’t true.
 
But what is SC? A specification is a conditionally independent pattern Complexity refers to probability, low probability actually. So SC is conditionally indepents pattern whose occurence is highly improbable.

Note that mere improbability doesn’t cut it. Flip a fair coin a thousand times and you will participate in a unique and highly improbable event completely explainable by chance alone. It has to be both a specification and highly improbable.
 
Dembski claims to have a method by which SC can be reliably detected. He calls it the Explanatory Filter.
  1. Is the event contingent? i.e. Before the event actualized, did it have a range of possibilities, or could have occurred only one way. If the latter, then it happened by necessity, in which the design inference is rejected at this point.
  2. Is it complex (improbable)? If not, the design inference is rejected because the event can be explained by chance alone.
  3. Is it a specification? If not, attribute the event to chance.
  4. If all three line up, then attribute the event to design.
 
  1. Specified complexity (SC) is a reliable indicator of design.
  2. Biological systems exhibit SC.
  3. Naturalistic mechanism or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of SC.
  4. Therefore, ID consitutes the best explanation for the origin of SC in bio systems.
First off, these appear in principle to be testable propositions. Deferring the definitions of SC and design for a bit, it seems that these props can be verified or disproved by empirical observation. In short, if you want to disprove ID, go out and find an example where SC has arisen by undirected naturalistic mechanisms alone.
Regarding Premise 3, how can you justify this? I’ve read many people say that the odds of our world forming naturally are about the same as finding a dime amid a pile of pennies covering Texas 2 feet deep, but it’s always seemed to me that they’re assuming the picker only gets one shot at it. If our universe is billions of years old, and has billions of “suns” and millions of planets, that’s going to take a lot of zeroes off that equation, representing the system’s “failures”.

Similarly, (I don’t know if this characteristic is part of the theory, but I’ll use it anyways), why do squirrels have fur? Well, think of the other things they could have developed instead; feathers, scales, armadillo armour…aren’t the odds of a squirrel developing fur cut down significantly then?

I’m also skeptical as to whether ID is even falsifiable. The way that theory is set up is that it governs everything. Additionally, God is generally scientifically undetectable. Because of these, your worldview says that all examples of SC are the result of design, and another person’s worldview says that everything you see as SC is natural. They wouldn’t be able to find an example of SC that you couldn’t claim for God.
 
Is intelligent design a scientific theory?
At present it is not, though it may become one in future.
The scientific method is commonly described as a four-step process involving observations, hypothesis, experiments, and conclusion.
The process involves feedback as well, when the hypotheses prove to be contrary to experiment.
Intelligent design begins with the observation that intelligent agents produce complex and specified information (CSI).
I agree that intelligent agents can produce complex outcomes. That does not mean that non-intelligent agents cannot also produce complex outcomes - a snowflake is complex. As for Dembski’s Complex Specified Information I can see two problems with it; firstly there needs to be an objective definition of what does and what does not constitute a specification, and secondly there needs to be a way to distinguish newly generated information form information that is merely copied from one place to another.

Copying infomration is a big problen, because a non-intelligent process can copy information and in particular random mutation and natural selection can copy information from the environment into the genomes of organisms living in that environment. Without a way to distinguish between copied information and newly generated information in a genome the argument from CSI fails.
Design theorists hypothesize that if a natural object was designed, it will contain high levels of CSI. Scientists then perform experimental tests upon natural objects to determine if they contain complex and specified information.
These experimental tests have never been done to my knowledge. I would appreciate a reference to any published papers where such work has been done.
One easily testable form of CSI is irreducible complexity, which can be discovered by experimentally reverse-engineering biological structures to see if they require all of their parts to function. When ID researchers find irreducible complexity in biology, they conclude that such structures were designed.
I am afraid that ID has moved on from the initial definition of Irreducible Complexity. Behe’s oroginal formulation was:* Irreducible Complexity cannot evolve.
  • Living organisms contain Irreducibly Complex subsystems.
  • Living organisms cannot have evolved.
This initial argument from IC has been shown to be false. Behe’s idea triggered a lot of work and produced a number of papers covering the possible paths for various IC systems to evolve. Computer simulations have also given us the exact paths by which IC systems evolve (Lenski 2003). Even a possible path is fatal to the argument that IC cannot evolve. Behe has since reformulated his argument, and correctly so in the light of the failure of his initial hypothesis:* Irreducible Complexity is unlikely to evolve.
  • Living organisms contain Irreducibly Complex subsystems.
  • Living organisms are unlikely to have evolved.
Behe has done some work to determine exactly how unlikely IC systems are to evolve. His results were published in a paper: Simulating evolution by gene duplication of protein features that require multiple amino acid residues.

To quote from the abstract:We conclude that, in general, to be fixed in 10[sup]8[/sup] generations, the production of novel protein features that require the participation of two or more amino acid residues simply by multiple point mutations in duplicated genes would entail population sizes of no less than 10[sup]9[/sup].
These figures mean that a simple IC system (“two or more amino acid residues”) can evolve in a population of a billion bacteria in about 20,000 years (“10[sup]8[/sup] generations”). To put that population size in perspective, each of us has about a trillion bacteria, a thousand times as many, in our gut and there are six billion humans on this planet.

Even on Behe’s own figures we can say that IC can evolve and that it does not take that long in evolutionary terms for it to happen.

It is also worth pointing out that the default position in science is “we don’t know”. Even if ID proponents were able to come up with something that could not have evolved, then science would revert to “we don’t know”; the ID proponents would have to produce some positive evidence to support their case. Evidence as to when the designer/s acted. Evidence as to how the designer/s moved DNA bases around to get them into the right order and so forth. Without such evidence then ID remains purely a hypothesis with no experimental support, and well short of being a scientific theory.

rossum
 
Hey Hound,

You sed: "Regarding Premise 3, how can you justify this? "

Tis the 64k question. We need to get into Dembski’s 2nd book, No Free Lunch.

You also sed: “I’m also skeptical as to whether ID is even falsifiable. The way that theory is set up is that it governs everything. Additionally, God is generally scientifically undetectable. Because of these, your worldview says that all examples of SC are the result of design, and another person’s worldview says that everything you see as SC is natural. They wouldn’t be able to find an example of SC that you couldn’t claim for God.”

ID can be falsified if we find an instance where SC with a known causal history was brought about without the (name removed by moderator)ut of an intelligent agent.

Keep in mind too that ID is agnostic about the the intelligent agency behind SC in biology. Dembski just claims to have a reliable way to identify design in nature.
 
Behe’s idea triggered a lot of work and produced a number of papers covering the possible paths for various IC systems to evolve.
I read a comment recently that seems appropriate here:

“Darwinian reasoning … allows one to cite their own imagination as if it is evidence.”

Behe’s challenge regarding the evolutionary paths of IC systems remains unanswered thus far – except by the imaginary “possible paths” that are claimed as evidence.
 
These figures mean that a simple IC system (“two or more amino acid residues”) can evolve in a population of a billion bacteria in about 20,000 years (“10[sup]8[/sup] generations”). To put that population size in perspective, each of us has about a trillion bacteria, a thousand times as many, in our gut and there are six billion humans on this planet.

Even on Behe’s own figures we can say that IC can evolve and that it does not take that long in evolutionary terms for it to happen.
I think this means that we should be able to observe in real-time the evolution of new biological structures with the kind of complexity found in IC systems.

This also should provide some opportunities for evolutionists to predict the outcomes of when those new IC systems will evolve and what they’ll be like.

I don’t think we’ve even seen anything looking back in history. We haven’t seen the evolution of something like the bacterial flagellum in the past 100 years (times 6 billion humans and a trillion bacteria opportunities) and Mr. Behe’s example is of the most simple structure:
For the case discussed earlier in which six nucleotide changes were required, the population size needed to fix the feature in 10[sup]8 [/sup]
 
I read a comment recently that seems appropriate here:

“Darwinian reasoning … allows one to cite their own imagination as if it is evidence.”
When it’s answering an imaginary challenge, what other evidence does it need? This is basic logic we are talking about.

An organism is judged IC if it is deemed*** IMPOSSIBLE*** for it to evolved by natural means. Impossible by whom? Micheal Behe? William Dembski? They suggest they are able to make that kind of judgement call, but offer no proof of being able to do it.

Still, if I come along and say, “It is possible that it evolved this way.” Unless you can prove that my possible way isn’t possible, then it isn’t impossible.

If you say: X if, and only if, Y. And I demonstrate: X if Q, X if W, and X if P. Those have to be proved false before you can support X if, and only if, Y.

And no one has.
Behe’s challenge regarding the evolutionary paths of IC systems remains unanswered thus far – except by the imaginary “possible paths” that are claimed as evidence.
Behe hasn’t proved anything. He has said this is impossible. What he has said is impossible has been shown to be possible. It doesn’t need to be proved that it happened that way. He, or at least someone, has to prove those possibilities wrong. And even then, it only proves that IC is possible.

You have to demand the same level of evidence of both sides. Not just the side you like.
 
I think this means that we should be able to observe in real-time the evolution of new biological structures with the kind of complexity found in IC systems.
Do me a favour and count to a billion.

At a rate of one per second that should take you less that 32 years, assuming you don’t sleep. Now, that population that it took you 32 years to count is actually the amount of that bacteria in one tonne of soil (according to Behe’s testimony at the Dover trial). Now, it will take 20,000 years for those bacteria to produce a novel protein (13.3 times as long as we’ve known about natural selection, or about 27 times the average lifespan). Now hopefully, this protein does something that can be easily observed, but maybe it won’t. Hopefully, it changes in such a way that we can identify that it is a mutation as opposed to a previously undiscovered species, but it is actually kind of hard to keep 1 billion bacteria alive for 20,000 years in complete isolation from other bacteria.
 
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