Evangelical Missionaries in Catholic Countries

[BobCatholic]

Becky:

Is Lucy a Christian? Does she have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ? Given her current state will she go to Heaven?

You know, these examples are nice and all, but when I went to Poland, I saw this:

• People enter a home and say “Niech bedzie pochwalone Jesus Chrystus!” (May the Lord Jesus Christ be praised!) and the response: “A wiekow wiekow, Amen” (Forever, and ever, Amen!)
• Masses are PACKED, standing room only - even daily masses!
• People KNEEL to receive the Eucharist
• The culture is profoundly pro-life.
• The faith is discussed over coffee.

Now, I figured I was dealing with an isolated village with extreme people on fire for the faith in the southern part of Poland, but when I saw this in a major city also, hey, I’m thinking that there’s real Christian faith in this country.

Portugal, I was told, is the same.

Greece, I was told, is the same.

Malta? Same.

But yet, for bigots, this is not “Christian” enough for them. They seem to have the ego enough to judge someone’s soul, when only God can do that.

Frankly, it is disgusting. Why these groups are not prioritizing evangelization to Muslims is not surprising. They hate the Catholic faith and do it out of bigotry. They are willing to cut off the nose (no evangelization to Muslims) to spite the face (prioritize evangelization to RC’s and EO’s) on purpose.

 

[MGEISING]

I was actually visiting my in-laws church – **Baptist ** - and the pastor - holding the bible in his hand, waving it like a maniac … voicing … WE MUST ANIALATE THE CATHOLICS FROM ECUDAOR … (not yelling - emphasis).

Really really scary. Needless to say, my husband during this sermon said to me, … look around, we won’t be back!

I have heard the more than 1/2 the congregation from this church are Ex-Catholics

 

[Becky]

Calling people names like bigots only discredits you*.* These evangelicals see a burning house with many people in it, so instead of just standing and doing nothing they bravely risk their lives to save the people who they believe are dying in that burning home.

These evangelicals sincerely believe the RCC is a cult that is no different from the JWs or Mormons, and that Catholics, like Mormons and JWs, are lost and need to be evanglized. Just as we sincerely believe that the Mormons and JWs are cults, and Mormons and JWs are lost and need to be evangelized despite their claims to be Christian churches. According to your broad definition we would be bigots because we evangelize to the Mormons, self-proclaiming Christians, out in Utah.

I have a lot of respect for those who seek to bring others to truth as they understand it even if I don’t agree with their understanding. If someone perceives that I am in a burning house I would much rather them do something to try and save my life instead of doing nothing and watching me perish.

Step back and take a look from their perspective, they don’t even believe the RCC is part of the Body, let alone tha face. To them, Roman Catholics are just as lost as the Muslims are. Yes, there are several people going out to Muslim countries-read Dayna Curry and Heather Mercer’s book for a start.

I’ll leave you with this: Matthew 28:19-20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

—Jesus Christ

All nations means ALL nations-the case is closed!

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[SeanG]

Becky:

There is a difference between evangelizing the lost and empowering, for lack of a better term, our brethren, however; just because one is baptised a RC in Rio de Janiero does not make them a Christian.

Ah, here we come back to one of the fundamental differences between Catholics and evangelical Christians. Catholics (and lots of other Christians as well) believe that profession of faith and baptism makes a person a Christian in the ordinary scheme of things.

Catholics and other Christians can thus work on the assumption that if a person has been baptized, he or she is Christian. That person may very well need a profound second conversion. But, as I’ve noted time and again in this thread, leading a person to this second conversion is fundamentally a different task than evangelization.

Evangelicals do not believe this. They believe that one becomes a Christian solely through accepting Christ in one’s heart, one’s conscience.

But herein, as I’ve pointed out in previous posts in this thread, lies the problem.

Becky:

Is Lucy a Christian? Does she have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ? Given her current state will she go to Heaven?..Is Johnny a Christian? Does he have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ? Given his current state will he go to Heaven?

If an evangelical Christian is going to answer these questions in a way that is consistent with their position on the way in which an individual becomes a Christian, then that evangelical Christian will have to say, “I don’t know if Lucy or Johnny is Christian. I can’t look into their hearts.”

After all, if after professing Christ as Lord, then you run into the evangelical belief that salvation is assured. Yes, after accepting Christ as Lord a person will want to live in a godly way. But that does not mean that such a person will live a sinless life.

So, given that belief, even if you look at the outward aspects of Lucy’s and Johnny’s lives, their troubles don’t necessarily mean that they aren’t Christian. They may need a tremendous amount of help from their fellow Christians, but that wouldn’t change their status.

 

[SeanG]

Becky:

All nations means ALL nations-the case is closed!

---

Becky,

Its not that simple.

Think about the context in which Christ gave the great commission. At that point all nations were indeed in need of hearing the Gospel because no nation had heard it to that point.

But we are living 2000 years after Christ gave the great commission, not 20 seconds afterwards. Praise God, there are many nations that have heard and accepted the Gospel. They always, as we all do, need continuing help to live out their faith. But they don’t need the Gospel preached to them as if they had never heard it.

Bob has a point that you haven’t addressed. The priority in the work of evangelization should be with those non-Christian nations that have never heard the Gospel.

 

[Paul_Pignal]

I just happen to be a Catholic Missionary in Mexico. For the last four years our group has built schools in the poorest regions so the Priests, Religious, and faithfull Laity have access to a facility to teach the faith to the people. Education is key, for I believe anyone who knows the Catholic faith would never leave it.The evangilicals are very active in the same area and the fact is they do go after practising Catholics very agresivly to the point of, (and I have been witness to this) driving out in front of a Church with loud speakers on the roof of thier car shouting anti Catholic slogans at those in the Church during the Mass. Now this is an extreme example but it does happen. The usual tactics used however are no different than the ones they use all over the U.S. and Canada.They memorize key passages in their Bibles and use it as proof text against people who are ill prepared to defend themselves or their beliefs. Again this is why education is so important, we must know our Faith in order to defend it.The key for us as Catholics in Canada and the United States is to get more active in these third world countries and show the people that they have not been forgoten by their more fortunate Brothers and Sisters.I am not Mexican and my comand of the Spanish language is less than stelar but words are not needed to spread the good news. Faith and works is a powerful one two punch and all the retoric in the world is useless without action.

“Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.” James 2:18

“Every day go out and preach the Gospel and if you have to use words” St. Francis

Peace
Paul

 

[Becky]

Sean,

Bottom line is that Lucy and Johnny’s souls are at great peril. IMO, both have a great chance of being hell-bound, are in a burning house, thus they need to be evangelized to.

As for evangelizing to Muslim countries and the like-check out the Southern Baptist Convention-they have tons of missionaries going to all sorts of countries. Mercer and Curry are products of Antioch Community Church in Waco, TX. I personally know of two people, one of whom has since died, who went to China a few summers ago to evanglize the Chinese.

In Christ.
Becky

 

[MGEISING]

Speaking of Evangelization … at my in-laws church – the Pastor who wants to annihilate Catholics in Ecuador … he preached that there was a Catholic Bishop (many moons ago) who said something like this as he was going up some mountain in Ecuador:

THE DAY I LET THESE HEATHENS HAVE BIBLES COME INTO THIS COUNTRY IS THE DAY I WILL HAVE GOD START AN EARTH QUAKE …

or something like that.

Does this or something like ring a bell to anyone out there???

 

[Serafin]

=Maccabees]Well I hate to burst this stereotype my dad is Mexican and his entire family is still in Mexico and no one practices Senteria or cuts off the heads of chickens etc. You guys are plain ridiculous. Are there village witch doctors that combine catholicism with thier own rituals and witchcraft and make a hybrid senteria. Sure but none of this taught by the church nor sanctioned by the church it is condemned.

The point is that many self proclaimed RC’s do practice this and other superstitions of pagan origin.We have not said the Church has approved it…but it happens frecuently. If evangelical missionaries approach someone like this, tell them about Jesus and lead them to conversion, it is a good thing…not the evil that it is portrayed as in this thread!

IT is also widely known that protestant groups have the lady of guadelupe statues in their churches and allow members to still pray to her in latin america. The rosary is also practiced in latin american protestant churches. Is this not a perversion of protestantism? I suspect you check out the entire disjointed religious situation there as opposed to picking on the one group you are stereotyping

You do not really believe this do you? Pardon me brother but this is highly unlikely. As an Hispanic Anglican who honors Mary, prays the Rosary and has had extensive contact with Mexican and South American evangelicals…I know this not to be true!!!:tsktsk:

My evangelical friends are usually horrified when they see any images in church at all, frown on Marian devotion and call the Rosary vain repetition. Many evangelical Mexicans think Guadalupe is a money making hoax or a demonic deceit! This does point to prejudices in their spirituality probably born of Catholic-Evangelical polemics in their country…but syncretism with RC…not credible…sorry dude, try again! :tiphat:

Blessings

Serafin

 

[Serafin]

Ah, here we come back to one of the fundamental differences between Catholics and evangelical Christians. Catholics (and lots of other Christians as well) believe that profession of faith

and baptism makes a person a Christian in the ordinary scheme of things.

Sean…when is the profession of faith made by people who were baptized as children? If a person baptized before the age of reason, does not make theirs or rejects the baptismal promises made by others on their behalf, are they Christian?

Catholics and other Christians can thus work on the assumption that if a person has been baptized, he or she is Christian. That person may very well need a profound second conversion. But, as I’ve noted time and again in this thread, leading a person to this second conversion is fundamentally a different task than evangelization

.
This really sems to be about technicalities! when I meet someone and become aware of his need to know Christ the first thing I do is not ask for their baptismal certificate, I tell them about the Gospel. When one meets an unchurched person who professes pagan beliefs, the assumption they are a Christian is not a safe one to make! You have to make yours the faith, to profess it for yourself, otherwise we would need no evangelists just hoses or water guns, and all we wet would be Christian.

I do not agree, that the tasks are fundamentally different when one meets a person like this… it is the task of, with the help of God’s grace… lead them to repentance, confession of their sins and commitment of their life to Christ…we call that evangelism in the South…you can call it what you wish…just do it!

Blessings

Serafin

 

[Therese_Martin]

Notice:

This thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.